Who would you want to make this stock? The action is a Model 70 LH. Blackburn bottom metal with drop belly. I have talked with several stockmakers but would like some insight from those who have done a project like this. Crossbolts seem to be a must but have been told that bedding material of some sort is not necessary. Can a stock take that kind of recoil after years of use? Quarter sawn blank, but some say no. What about second recoil lug on barrell? I have looked at many blanks and still looking. Thanks for your insight and experience.
JC

JC375,

As one who had to "eat" a custom stock after less than fifty rounds, My recommendations are made with some experience. The 458 Lott with full-house loads is pretty vicious in the recoil department. It has a reputation for destroying stocks.

I would choose a stockmaker that has plenty of experience stocking heavy recoiling rifles. I would definitely use an extra recoil lug on the barrel, crossbolts, and bedding material at the stress points. I would select the densest, straightest grain stick of European walnut I could find for the stock.

Lots of luck on your project.

Tom

I hope not to have a similar experience Tsquare2. One of the top stockmakers in the country has told me that with propere grain layout that bedding material is not necessary. His example is all of the old English rifles still being used.
This to me seems to be the most complex part of building a custom rifle.

Bed it, cross bolts it, and a second recoil lug.

If the stock maker does not want to do all of them, find someone else.

You will be glad you did.

Keith

Thanks Hog Killer. It is interesting how some of these old guns are still going without bedding. I would agree with all that you have suggested. When I do things around my home I tend to lean towards the side of over engineering. What about the large double rifes, how do their stocks hold up to all that recoil?

Those old guns are still going because they were bedded by hand using lampblack and scrappers. It looks like the metal grew out of the wood. No gaps anywhere that can give the action a running start to act like a wedge to break your stock. A extremely time consuming practice requiring skill and experience. You may find somebody who can do it today but you'll Pay big time. If they had accraglass in those days, they would have used it! Duh!
I steel bed all my actions, use crossbolts and a sewcond recoil lug on anything over a .458win mag. Never had a stock break. Look how many others have.-Rob

Some blanks of wood were meant for big bores. Some were not.
Some genus/species should not be considered.
This is where density is just as important if not more so than layout.
Most important when picking a blank is knowing what good layout looks like and what constitutes density in a blank.
Great density with bad grain is not much better than low density with great grain.
I heavy hitting rifle should have a stock blank that has structure in spades and figure as a second to all the others; If you find figure through the stock, all the better.

Rob,
The stockmaker claims that his stock inletting is this good. He also insist that with proper inletting bedding is not needed. He dose recommend crossbolts. I do not expect this to be inexpensive but it better work and work for a long time. What do you guys think of the way a blank was cut. What books could I read to help me understand density, grain layout and so on. I

Is laminate a good idea?

why not utilize our own Wayne at AHR? Anybody that builds 600 and 700 AHR rifles for a living has pretty well got grain structure and bedding, etc figured out.

Rich
Buff Killer

Nathan I am leaning towards a classic walnut stocked rifle. Idaho Sharpshooter I do admire the AHR rifles and have spoken with Wayne. I have the Model 70 and the Blackburn bottom metal so I would like to stay on that track. You right handers sure got it made lots to choose from both new and used.

I don't thing a Lott can do without the second recoil lug in the forearm.If your going to put a wooden stock on it and you do have the second lug,you are going to get crazy shifts in the point of impact(up to about a foot,from one week to another),especially in humid conditions.There will be times when you will have to use the 200yd leaf to shoot at 50 yds and two foulers before you find your POI.However during dry weather ,the rifle will fire to the same POI,week after week.With a wooden stock on a Lott,you need to always be ON THE BALL.

quote:

Originally posted by JC375:
Rob,
The stockmaker claims that his stock inletting is this good. He also insist that with proper inletting bedding is not needed. He dose recommend crossbolts. I do not expect this to be inexpensive but it better work and work for a long time. What do you guys think of the way a blank was cut. What books could I read to help me understand density, grain layout and so on. I

I would definitely want him to guarantee the stock in writing. On the other hand Who is spending their money on this stock? When it is my money you build it how I want it or someone else will.
Nathan,
Welcome to the forum. Laminated stocks are an exhalant way to add strength and stability to a stock.
Bill

If you keep your screws tight,even the least expensive stocks don't crack.It only takes a single shot to crack the stock.If you shoot it without checking if the screws are tight and the action is not bedded even when the action moves in the stock,it will crack.

No offense, but no matter how good a stock maker your gunsmith is, steel bed is great insurance. You know the recipe. Steel bed, crossbolts and second lug. Dont listen to idiots who have never built a hard kicker themselves before. Properly built the accuracy will be better than you can shoot. What in truth do they know other than what they have read on this site? Its your money and your gun. Choose wisely! Maybe you should talk to AHR before your taken for an expensive ride. You wont be the first or the last. -Rob

unless the stockmaker will replace, FOR FREE AND QUICKLY the stock WHEN the lott eats it, it is nOT his choice.

2'nd lug, xbolts, wrist pin, and bed it.

blah blah blah english gun blah blah blah...

english gun that TODAY sells for 20K, why certainly one can expect it to work. Of COURSE, and DUH

find me a $2,500-5,000 english gun, today... it will be bedded, bolted, and luged

ANYONE that says a lott doesn't need to be bedded, and its not a ruger RSM, has one or both of the following
1: NO EXPERIENCE with actually doing a lott
2: No EXPERIENCE with shooting a lott

Sorry, guys, when its MY money, its always burger king, i get it MY way, or I will find someone else to pay

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If you keep your screws tight,even the least expensive stocks don't crack.It only takes a single shot to crack the stock.If you shoot it without checking if the screws are tight and the action is not bedded even when the action moves in the stock,it will crack.

how many .458 lotts have you built, flinchie?

please don't post"Advice" that can cost someone THOUSANDS, while YOU, flinchie, have stated NOT CLEANING A RIFLE can break a stock

I don't care how good the fellow is, it is cheap insurance to add the extra recoil lug, etc., and glass bed the rifle.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
If you keep your screws tight,even the least expensive stocks don't crack.It only takes a single shot to crack the stock.If you shoot it without checking if the screws are tight and the action is not bedded even when the action moves in the stock,it will crack.

how many .458 lotts have you built, flinchie?

please don't post"Advice" that can cost someone THOUSANDS, while YOU, flinchie, have stated NOT CLEANING A RIFLE can break a stock

You can tell us how to make them so they won't break but you can't tell us how to make them so they will shoot.What good is a rifle that doesn't shoot?

Tighten the screws holding your Helmet to the stock to EXACTLY 32 ft-lbs. You could glassbed it, but real tight screws work good! Insert your head in the Helmet. Fasten the chin strap tight and it will now shoot. This corrects for your taking your head off the stock while shooting. Your shooting skills will improve dramatically. Now you can take both hands off the stock to work the bolt faster assuming your neck is up to it. Good advise HUH!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Tighten the screws holding your Helmet to the stock to EXACTLY 32 ft-lbs. You could glassbed it, but real tight screws work good! Insert your head in the Helmet. Fasten the chin strap tight and it will now shoot. This corrects for your taking your head off the stock while shooting. Your shooting skills will improve dramatically. Now you can take both hands off the stock to work the bolt faster assuming your neck is up to it. Good advise HUH!-Rob

and there is Robgunbuilder telling us how we should build a canon????

Sorry..just can't keep my thoughts to myself! I have built more 500 Jeff's than 458 Lotts..and I refuse to use glass. Think about this: You bed properly, or you bed sloppily..but use glass to fill in where you bedded sloppily....result! same!

I have NEVER had a stock fail, therefore I have never had to replace one.

Of course, use good wood. Luxus has some great wood. Roger Vardy has some of the hardest walnut you'll ever work with.

But..as my mother used to say.."If you feel better with an apple in your pocket, carry an apple in your pocket" same for glass bedding

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Sorry..just can't keep my thoughts to myself! I have built more 500 Jeff's than 458 Lotts..and I refuse to use glass. Think about this: You bed properly, or you bed sloppily..but use glass to fill in where you bedded sloppily....result! same!

I have NEVER had a stock fail, therefore I have never had to replace one.

Of course, use good wood. Luxus has some great wood. Roger Vardy has some of the hardest walnut you'll ever work with.

But..as my mother used to say.."If you feel better with an apple in your pocket, carry an apple in your pocket" same for glass bedding

classic post

Thanks everyone for your comments. Jeff, for this rifle I do plan on lots of hard use. The english rifle or one by a top maker like Duane with no bedding material has to stand up to years of hard use.

The stockmaker who insist that bedding material is not needed is one in the same level of quality as Mr. Wiebe. I hope to have someone like them do this project and like the ideal classic high quality rifle building. With that said in ten years from now you wouldn't want your stock to fail while practicing for a upcomming hunt. Hard to get it replaced when the stockmaker has gone to meet his maker.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Sorry..just can't keep my thoughts to myself! I have built more 500 Jeff's than 458 Lotts..and I refuse to use glass. Think about this: You bed properly, or you bed sloppily..but use glass to fill in where you bedded sloppily....result! same!

I have NEVER had a stock fail, therefore I have never had to replace one.

Of course, use good wood. Luxus has some great wood. Roger Vardy has some of the hardest walnut you'll ever work with.

But..as my mother used to say.."If you feel better with an apple in your pocket, carry an apple in your pocket" same for glass bedding

Duane,do you use a barrel recoil lug set up for the the Lott and the 500 Jeff's?

Duane-I've always admired your work. Can you estimate the ballpark cost of a hand inletted stock and the time it takes you to produce one for the board members?-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Sorry..just can't keep my thoughts to myself! I have built more 500 Jeff's than 458 Lotts..and I refuse to use glass. Think about this: You bed properly, or you bed sloppily..but use glass to fill in where you bedded sloppily....result! same!

I have NEVER had a stock fail, therefore I have never had to replace one.

Of course, use good wood. Luxus has some great wood. Roger Vardy has some of the hardest walnut you'll ever work with.

But..as my mother used to say.."If you feel better with an apple in your pocket, carry an apple in your pocket" same for glass bedding

This is self aggrandizement, or delusions of grandeur!
Sure Duane is good.
Epoxy is better!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Tighten the screws holding your Helmet to the stock to EXACTLY 32 ft-lbs. You could glassbed it, but real tight screws work good! Insert your head in the Helmet. Fasten the chin strap tight and it will now shoot. This corrects for your taking your head off the stock while shooting. Your shooting skills will improve dramatically. Now you can take both hands off the stock to work the bolt faster assuming your neck is up to it. Good advise HUH!-Rob

and there is Robgunbuilder telling us how we should build a canon????

Shootaway, no offense but I can kinda understand how Rob & Jeff & others bug you, alot of times you got it coming, sometimes its tuff to take advice....but alot of times, one should just go ahead & take it.

But for the life of me, I cannot figure out how you can slam them on their knowledge!

A guy that designed a low recoiling cartridge like the 600OK, or the other that drummed up his own line of heavy hitters, may know a thing or two about recoil, may it be how to shoot the big ones, bed the big ones or how to prevent stock damage to said "big ones". I am likely not alone around here when I say that I will handily take the advice those two give to the bank & to the 'smiths!

quote:

Originally posted by JC375:
I have the Model 70 and the Blackburn bottom metal so I would like to stay on that track

Did Wayne say he wouldnt do the Win with Blackburn? I am likely sending him a LH MRC in 458 Lott. Hes going to add the bbl lug, and do me up a stock, I'm quite sure he can/will do your Winny with Blackburn........but maybe I'm wrong.

Whatever the outcome, good luck with your project.

I would have the riflesmith that built my 404j build a custom stock for any caliber. Laszlo works out of Duncan Guns in SanMarcos, Ca. His wood to metal fit is perfect but I still had him glass in my cross bolts. I lokk at it as belt & suspenders.

IMO,a big bore stock has to be redesigned.It should have the action recoil lug the way it is,then a second barrel lug about six inches ahead of it such that the barrel surface between both lugs,does not contact the wood.The present system,with the forearm screw and lug,is full of crap.It is designed by gunbuilders and not shooters.Gunbuilders may be a little lost in space.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO,a big bore stock has to be redesigned.It is designed by gunbuilders and not shooters.Gunbuilders may be a little lost in space.

I rest my case

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I would have the riflesmith that built my 404j build a custom stock for any caliber. Laszlo works out of Duncan Guns in SanMarcos, Ca. His wood to metal fit is perfect but I still had him glass in my cross bolts. I lokk at it as belt & suspenders.

I had Laslo put a Pac-nor barrel on a Rem 700 30-06 a year and a half ago and he said it would be done in three months. Three months later called and he said he was still waiting for the barrel. Asked him to check on the status and call me back.

Never called back, I again called several weeks later and was told he had left the country, and would not be back for a month. I contacted Pac-nor barrels and inquired about the delay on my barrel and was told Laslo had never ordered it.

After being lied to by Laslo several times, I contacted the owner, who ordered the barrel. Finally got the rifle back after nine months. I will never do business again with Duncan's with this sub-standard service and lying to customers.

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I would have the riflesmith that built my 404j build a custom stock for any caliber. Laszlo works out of Duncan Guns in SanMarcos, Ca. His wood to metal fit is perfect but I still had him glass in my cross bolts. I lokk at it as belt & suspenders.

I had Laslo put a Pac-nor barrel on a Rem 700 30-06 a year and a half ago and he said it would be done in three months. Three months later called and he said he was still waiting for the barrel. Asked him to check on the status and call me back.

Never called back, I again called several weeks later and was told he had left the country, and would not be back for a month. I contacted Pac-nor barrels and inquired about the delay on my barrel and was told Laslo had never ordered it.

After being lied to by Laslo several times, I contacted the owner, who ordered the barrel. Finally got the rifle back after nine months. I will never do business again with Duncan's with this sub-standard service and lying to customers.

While DUncan's is really bad about their customer service, Laszlo is an honest guy. Did you talk to Laszlo personnaly? He has always bent over backwards to get things done for me. If I really needed it, he moved my stuff in front of others. So unless you personnaly talked to Laszlo, it would not be right to brand him a liar, as he is not.
I've been screwed over by several famous gunsmiths in the past. Laszlo has done two custom rifles as well as two rebarrels & fixed another well know gunsmiths error for me. you have to deal with him though, not Duncan guns. Duncan has no idea how to run a shop or anything about cutomer service.

Folks-Dont waste your time trying to straighten him out. You can't fix stupid! It's just good for a laugh!-Rob