quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
One thing to keep in mind about doubling. Some guns double because a sear lets go. That is repairable. Other guns double because the shooter accidentally drags his finger across the second trigger as the first barrel goes off.

Didn't I read that Searcy is offering intercepting sears now that would prevent this accidential doubling? I may have the terminology wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mac,

... Other guns double because the shooter accidentally drags his finger across the second trigger as the first barrel goes off. That situation is correctable with practice on the shooter's part, or if the shooter will agree to fire the rear trigger first, then the front trigger. But many people are just careful when shooting a double and have no difficulty.

This is worth noting: its one thing to have the trouble at the range, and then to learn to be careful... and another thing to be careful when you need the two controlled shots during a charge. Seems to me the best thing to do is to be very dilligent to practice so that the care becomes deeply ingrained habit before you're in that position.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

I have a Searcy .500.

Nice rifle there, .500!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Didn't I read that Searcy is offering intercepting sears now that would prevent this accidential doubling? I may have the terminology wrong.

You heard right Charles! That is one of the reasons the price went up on the PH model, and the old "FIELD GRADE" was discontinued. The addtion of sear interceptors, is a very good move, especially on the larger chamberings! I may be wrong but I don't think the interceptors will negate a so-called doubleing by enadvertenly pulling the other trigger, because of recoil. It may but My understanding is, it only holds the sear engagement from the recoil effect disengageing the other sear, till that trigger is pulled.

Actually the double discharge caused by the finger slipping back onto the back trigger is not actually a similtaineous discharge, but a very quick one, two punch! When the slipped triggering happens, the second barrel to go off usually sends that second bullet high in the air, as it fires while the first shot is in heavy recoil, and is wasted, in most cases. The true doubleing is also a 1, 2 punch but is much closer together, and if close, both may hit the target. The biggest problem with either of these double discharges is, not the recoil on the shooter, but it may not be noticed in the heat of battle, and may leave the shooter with an empty rifle while he thinks he has another barrel in reserve!

Mac -- thanks for the clarification! It sounds like a positive improvement in any event.

Which gunsmiths would you recommend? I am having a problem with a Heym 500 Nitro Express 3 1/4" doubling very often.

Khan,

You should probably contact the originator of this thread, New_Guy, for recommendations. He is the Heym USA distributor.

Are you sure your finger isn't slipping off the front trigger during recoil and pulling the back trigger? I have a Merkel 500 NE 3" and that has happened to me once and to one of my friends when I let him shoot it.

I have a William Douglass also. It is a great gun and I will say it is the best value today. Though I doubt you can find one in the 10-12K range today. They have gone up in value in the last few years. George at Champlin's had one a few months ago and it sold in about 5 days for 14.5K. I've been offered 15K for mine. To get the Douglass reproduced today would cost you in excess of 25K may be even into the 30K mark.

Great guns well regulated. Mine is one of the softest recoiling 470's I've shot. If you can find a Douglass hop on it you will not be dissipointed.

505ED

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
My Merkel470NE has fired appox 80 rounds and I find it a good work gun, a friend fires around six shots per week out of his Merkel470NE total over 900 rounds, this guy has owned holands and the sort,been offered an aprenticeship from Taylor,shot lion on sixteenth birthday with an "06",shot black Rino on the Ngorongoro crater rim and loves his Merkel.
The only complaint I have on the MERKEL is the back edges of the trigger is sharp and on recoil of second barrel I have cut my finger to the bone at the first knuckel, a problem that can be fixed by polising off the edge , but it's quite annoying. Has anyone else had this problem? Cheers, Adam C.

Ozhunter. Yes, I only got scratched enough to shed a drop or two of blood by the non-articulated front trigger of the Merkel ... one time. That sharp edge then got filed and stoned and polished with a Dremel polishing spud.

I am new to doubles,and have just bought two in the last 6 weeks. What I found was this. On a new big bore in 470 the cheepest prices were on the Merkel, In the 9.3X74R the cheepest prices seemed to be on Chapuis. My merkel had a club like feel, it came with 6lb and 7 lb triggers.The sights were useless to me!!!! Fit amd finish was fair. My gun came from the factory with a cracked toe on the stock that had been repaired, when I cut the stock to fit the recoil pad the slither came off requireing more repair and finish touch up. The chambers of both barrels have groves left in the neck area from a bad or bured reamer. THE GSI GUMSNITH IS A JOKE!!!! I offered to drive 5 hours for him to look at the rifle, he refused to give me a apointment to look at the rifle while I was there, He said I had to leave it. He said It had to go back to the factory for any chamber work (a six month turn around}. In all fainess the rifle is very accurate,I did a trigger job and got 3.5lb triggers that feel great. I have added some weight in the but stock and the rifle now feels alive. I can fix the chambers my self but the rifle shoots so good, I am not going to take a chance on messing things up. The fit and finish on the Chapuis is much better than on my Merkel. The Merkel has sharp edges on the triggers and guard that still cut me with gloves on. (My next project}. The little chapuis feels alive, and the sights are much more useable than my merkel. The triggers on the Chapuis are worse than the merkel 5 lbs on the front and almost 8lbs on the rear. I will do a trigger job before I do alot of shooting with it. I have shot it 6 times at 25 yards it feels good and shot well with the heavy triggers, but I can t speak on how accurate it is at this time. I called champion and spoke to JJ on sights for my Merkel I found him friendly and helpful unlike the response I got from GSI. I have not shot any other doubles,but did get to handle some Heyms and Searcy's. My Merkel will make a fine working rifle, being able to do the gunsmithing my self has saved me a lot of money. If I would have had to pay for the improvements, I think Chapuis or Searcy would have been a better deal. I have spoken to both gunsmiths, I believe you would have better luck with Chapuis. The Heyms and Searcy's were very handsome rifles but more money. They all put out good rifles,and some poor ones.

JD

JD
The gsi folks just don't care if one wants anything done at all. Their thinking is that: "Since we've been making DR's our way for X years, it's good enough for everybody else, why are you complaining." They suck.

Is that "Herbert The German" at GSI in Trussville, Alabama that y'all are bad-mouthing?

He was quite friendly and helpful for me, installing a recoil pad perfectly on my Merkel, and cleaning and lubricating the lock mechanism with near-immediate turn-around for this simple chore.

Yes rip it is. I realy was not pissed off about the crack in the toe of the stock. The stock fitter fixed it instead of reporting it and take the heat for breaking it (My best guess).The rough thoats kind of got me a little concerned.

I called and spoke to Herbert,I told him I would drive up from New Orleans,to have him look at it. He told me to ship it. I explained that I had been burned more than once by UPS on not paying insurance claims, that I would drive it up. He told me I would have to leave it, that he wanted to shoot it and take his time with it. I asked if he had a range on site he said he did.I asked if he had a bore scope he said he did. At the DRSS hunt I barrowed a bore scope, it took all of 5 min to see whar the problem was. He could walk to his range to fire a couple of shots in 5 min if he wanted to. Total time 1/2 to 3/4 Hour.
He would not even consider give me a day and a time to look at my new Merkel that came from the factory with a crack in the toe and rough chamber necks. That pissed me off,he told me any chamber work had to go back to the factory ( a six month turnaround).Hetold me he did not have a finish reamer. He's a part changer with a cute accent that knows the address for the factory.


JD

I don't know who the hell it was I talked when I called, but the feeling is that they couldn't be bothered with anything and it was a take it or leave it thing. This was close to 10 yrs ago. They wouldn't install a recoil pad w/o my eating it both ways and of course, there's their sights.

I owned a Merkel 470, it shot great, made one trip to Africa with it. Sold it and got Heym 470, it has better workmanship then the Merke.

I fired a friend's Searcy in 470, just did not care for it.

Presently have 450/400 Heym coming. Love the workmanship on the Heym.

First choice would be Heym, second Chap. third Merkel.

I think it really depends in large part on what gun fits you the best. I had a Heym .470 that given the stock design or something, seemed to pound the snot out of me. I now have a Chapuis .470 that is pleasant to shoot. Having owned a Merkel, a Heym, a Searcy and a Chapuis, for someone not interested in waiting on the Searcy, I would go with the Chapuis. They are very accurate, nicely appointed, handle well and are stoutly made. I have really enjoyed my Chapuis and am planning to take it with me in August to chase elephant around.

Mike

Just curious - what was the weight of your Heym 470? Mine weighs in at 9.5 pounds, and the recoil can get a little frisky in hot weather.

Jim,

That sounds about right, although I think mine was closer to 10 pounds. My problem was that the front trigger and trigger guard would beat my hand to a pulp. When I fired the rear trigger the front trigger would split my index finger open at the first knuckle from the tip of my finger. At the same time the trigger guard would smash my middle finger. What is interesting is that I have zero problems with both my Wm Evans and Chapuis in this regard, none. I think it has something to do with the stock design and grip, but that is just a guess.

And for something that wasn't developed in the stone age look here:

http://www.blaser.de/S-2-Safari.241.0.html?&L=1

I prefer precision tools that aren't wired, soldered, & hammered into submission.

Hello Macifej,
I thank you for pointing out the info for the Blaser. I have been searching about for possible double rifle purchase in couple years and had not given these folks even a glance. Yes, the wire, solder, jackscrew barrel adjustment, etc. does seem a bit blacksmith style to me, but figured that was about as advanced as it was. Will check them out and again, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
And for something that wasn't developed in the stone age look here:

http://www.blaser.de/S-2-Safari.241.0.html?&L=1

I prefer precision tools that aren't wired, soldered, & hammered into submission.

To each his own. But, in my book, a manual cocking mechanism on a double rifle is a step back on the technology side.

I've looked at the S-2. It does have some very nice features. The sights are surprisingly usable and the rifle mounts and points much nicer than it looks like it should.

The decocker safety is nothing more than a get killed switch. The damn thing is stiff as hell and it takes just the right angle on the thumb to get it to stay put.

NOT something I want on a fast handling DG gun.

They cannot be fit with ejectors due to the decocker action and finally they look like the true inception of tuetonic styling.

They have all the appeal and style of two gas pipes crudely welded together.

While I'm sure they are a solid accurate rifle they just aren't for me.

If you need more than two rounds in a large caliber rifle you are in BIG trouble.....you've obviously become the prey and not the predator! Pack of Lions... Herd of Yetis or whatever.
(Ejectors in a double?!?! Please! Where's the sport?)

True the S2 is unconventional in it's approach and styling. There are no welds.... that's the point. It's not a 12th century blacksmith piece built with files an mallets. The quality and engineering is far superior to others at the price point and above. Try an R93 Safari - You'll throw your M98 based clunker in the dumpster.

If you need the ultimate Bourgois all points device then get a Hamed! One could name it something more appropriate like the "Double Bubba" if he can afford one.

http://www.blaser.de/R-93-Duo-Hamed.750.0.html?&L=1

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
True the S2 is unconventional in it's approach and styling. There are no welds.... that's the point. It's not a 12th century blacksmith piece built with files an mallets. The quality and engineering is far superior to others at the price point and above. Try an R93 Safari - You'll throw your M98 based clunker in the dumpster.

Not even a good joke. Just because the Blaser is "modern" doesn't mean that it isn't crap. The Blaser is what it is because they don't know how to do it right, not because it's innovative.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I had a look at a .500NE Blaser and was not impressed at all..
The rifle feels terrible, IMO looks terrible, needs to be cocked every time it is opened and has a plastic fore end.
Certainly not my choice for a DG double.

I use a R93 ATTACHE and love it, but this double

Hello,
Well now calling the Blaser crap is a bit on the harsh side, but have heard others say the same about the other makers, but to each his own. My primary concern is that the double rifle works every time and as for the method of safety, cocking, uncocking, etc. can learn those things with practice, but other than the funtion part, does it shoot well?? I am not impressed at all by the reported accuracy of the double rifles producing two and four inch groups at 50yds!! It would seem the spread is that much for each barrel as well!! No, not good enough and could care less whether Butch, Bob, Betty, or Sedwick made the thing, it will have to shoot a whole lot better. Such accuracy is not a group but rather a pattern. Often hear it is a special purpose firearm and used up close and one does not need better performance. Again, not buying that and especially for $15,000 or more. Then I hear that you determine which barrel is the most accurate and use that one for longer shots(what is a longer shot??)with scope set up and utilize the double feature for "close encounters." That is an honest approach to the inability of the double to shoot each barrel well and perhaps that is as good as it gets, but I would certainly expect any sporting firearm, double or otherwise to deliver 1-1.5 moa groups at 100 yards and regardless of caliber and each barrel should place them side by side. Perhaps I am asking more than a double rifle is supposed to deliver, but would hope not. I'll just keep checking them out.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If you need more than two rounds in a large caliber rifle you are in BIG trouble.....you've obviously become the prey and not the predator! Pack of Lions... Herd of Yetis or whatever.
(Ejectors in a double?!?! Please! Where's the sport?)

True the S2 is unconventional in it's approach and styling. There are no welds.... that's the point. It's not a 12th century blacksmith piece built with files an mallets. The quality and engineering is far superior to others at the price point and above. Try an R93 Safari - You'll throw your M98 based clunker in the dumpster.

If you need the ultimate Bourgois all points device then get a Hamed! One could name it something more appropriate like the "Double Bubba" if he can afford one.

http://www.blaser.de/R-93-Duo-Hamed.750.0.html?&L=1

In an ideal world, you should not need more than 2 shots. But the darn topography, brush and weather just don't seem to cooperate. And the animals - if they would just hold perfectly still....

It is much cheaper to manufacture a rifle that does not have to have both barrels regulated. The regulation process adds a lot of time to the build.

As for the comment regarding ejectors, I take it that you remove the ejector from your bolt rifles to make it more sporting and stick with push feed only rifles.

As for tossing an M98 aside for a "superior" R93, you might want to alert Blaser/Sig to that fact. Last time I checked, they were marketing the M98 as their Mauser Magnum at a significantly higher cost than the R93.

As far as accuracy goes, I have no idea where it has been stated that a 2-4 inch spread at 50 yards is acceptable accuracy. Most well made doubles will regulate about barrel width apart (roughly one inch), with the point of aim in the middle. And they should maintain that accuracy at both 50 and 100 yards. A one inch spread with point of aim in the middle is one half inch from the point of aim for each barrel. last time I checked, a half inch from the POI at 100 yards was an acceptable level of accuracy.

It is interesting that most of the negative comments on doubles or expert opinions on what is good or not comes from folks who neither own nor shoot double rifles.

Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright states 3.5" groups at 50 yards is acceptable. This book is a standard reference.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If you need more than two rounds in a large caliber rifle you are in BIG trouble.....you've obviously become the prey and not the predator! Pack of Lions... Herd of Yetis or whatever.
(Ejectors in a double?!?! Please! Where's the sport?)

Opinions and assholes being what they are...

Only one who has never been in "BIG" trouble with rifle in his hands would make a statement like this.

I prefer ejectors. If you'd care to see just how fast a good man with a double can reload and get back on target with an ejector rifle you should really try and make it out to the Double rifle shooting competition in Sacramento this October 8th.

In fact bring your S2 the clock will tell no lies nor will the calipers which are used to measure group size. And it is one hell of a good time.

As far as the R-93 being the cats meow I've already sold mine, not impressed overall.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright states 3.5" groups at 50 yards is acceptable. This book is a standard reference.

It is indeed a book, and one could call it a reference, but it is by no means the standard reference for double rifles.

If Wright really did say that in print, while 3.5 inches may be acceptable to him, it is not to virtually any double hunter today. At that level of accuracy, there are less expensive ways to make noise.

Like I said before:

It is interesting that most of the negative comments on doubles or expert opinions on what is good or not comes from folks who neither own nor shoot double rifles.

quote:

If you need more than two rounds in a large caliber rifle you are in BIG trouble.....you've obviously become the prey and not the predator! Pack of Lions... Herd of Yetis or whatever.
(Ejectors in a double?!?! Please! Where's the sport?)

Ah, I see the great and powerful Oz has spoken!
It is always a pleasure to be able get good laugh as well as information on this forum.

Hello Jim Manion,
As to where it has been stated regarding accuracy for double rifles, one can see it on this very site frequetly and I have yet to see one showing 1" separation/1"groups/etc. at 100 yards. I may well have missed it, but would like to see and would think then that particular double rifle shoots very well. Outstanding matter of fact for it would be far and away from the normal accuracy level displayed. A firearm in the price range of quality doubles should well shoot in that manner, nothing less.
I make no pretense to be expert in any fashion w/ double rifles, but I can claim to know accurate rifles/firearms whether it has one, two, three, four, or more barrels. Again, if I have missed groups of 1 moa at 100 yards posted I stand corrected, but believe those would be, shall we say on the rare side of the coin.

Rusty

Don't lump all of us from OZ in together !

We might be in the same country, but it doesn't mean we all agree !

I think I'll have to take Macifej
and give him 2 Big Bire Cartridges only
and sooner or later he'll need to change
his underwear !

I've had a few occasions where animals have taken multiple hits from 458+ / 500 cals.

500N,
No disrespect to you guys down under.
I was refering to the "Wizard of Oz".
A pompus fellow who was nothing more than smoke and a loud voice.
In Texas we refer to these boys as being "All Hat and No Cattle!"

s2?

Is that because a blaser with 2 barrels is a
poSxpoS? never had a double JAM ON LOADING before...

what a piece of trollbait

Manion:

Check your copy of Graeme's work. It does not surprise me you are not aware. It is interesting that self proclaimed experts know so little facts.

If Graeme's work is not a standard reference for double rifles as you state, then tell us who and what books are the standard text references for double rifles.

Bullwinkle,

Like I said, it is a reference book but hardly the last word on double rifles. Anyone who thinks a 3.5 inch spread is "acceptable" is not a person I would take as an authority on double rifles. If Holland and Holland had adopted this standard, they would be in the business of making plumbing pipe rather than double rifles.

I must admit I have not memorized Graeme's book, using the time instead to shoot my double rifle. I leave the memorization of such materials to you. I recall reading a book in a college course flatly stating there was no such thing as the mafia - so it must be true, much to the chagrin of prosecutors everywhere.

There are other books on the subject out there. I don't believe it is within either my charge or power to attempt to educate you on the topic. Frankly, trying to do so would be akin to getting a 5 gallon pail to hold 10 gallons of water.

And, as I recall, you don't own or shoot doubles - talk about self proclaimed experts!

No one has even mentioned the Krieghoff which I find to be a very comfortable gun to shoot with good sights. It must be cocked initially but when reloading it is still cocked. I believe the Blaser functions the same way. The safety of an uncocked rifle in my mind outweighs the inconvenience of cocking the gun before first firing. Krieghoff service is very helpful should you have a problem. I suggest you look at a Krieghoff with an open mind and I think for the money you will be pleasantly surprised.

Hello LJS,
Good suggestion and will definitely check them out. Some might think I am degrading the double rifle and far from it, but it will shoot well or I have no desire to own one regardless of those giants of the hunting world some century ago. They had little choice, I do and that makes a big difference. Again, thanks for the sane advise.

Nice! Lot's of ego and little humor here! I did like Mr. Manion's comments about the topopgraphy and weather though). As I recall, the thread started as an inquiry about the best double around $10k. Regarding the R93 - anyone who thinks they can cycle a turnbolt faster than a straight pull.....well...uh...yeah.