For 15K - look long and hard at the heym! They're great guns.

For closer to 10K - look at the chapuis, searcy & merkel.

I'd go with the Searcy for a hunting gun, they are super accurate and very strong and they will shoot monolithic bullets that the English guns will not, or at least should not......

I have always shot English guns mostly in 450-400 until I got this last gun, a Searcy, and for strictly hunting I will never own any other double...

For investment purposes a good English gun in proper caliber is a great investment...Get a good one and thats hard to find, so take your time and look around, there is a world of junk selling high in English guns today...I just always got the queasys when sending my English guns in a gun case to Africa is another reason I don't use them anymore...I can collect insurance and have Butch Searcy build me another Searcy if mine is trashed or disapears.

I'll vote for merkel, but take a look at wm douglas too. I know everybody seems high on searcy, but the one I had was a piece of junk. it would either double or one side would go off and not the other, Sent it back twice with no results, took it to 2 other gunsmiths, neither could do anything. Last one said the design resembled a stevens shotgun & probably would never work right. Wasn't going to argue, I bought it at cabellas & they took back with no questions asked. Latter I found out they ended up selling it and taking it back 3 more times with the same problem. My biggest complaint on the merkel is that I'd like ejectors.

WOW that is an interesting story please elaborate !
What model and what caliber was it and when was this ? Long ago or recently

Cheers,

Andr�

the searcy i had was from 1999. I don't remember the exact model etc. but was the stainless one, in 470. I'm not sure which was worse, not having one side go off or having it double. I think maybe both things were equally deadly. When it would double it would only do so on full power loads. Light loads with 35 gr. of 5744 & a cast bullet would not cause the double, so I believe it was a recoil induced thing that set the sear off. anyway it sure was a quick way to a headache.

Double shots with full power 470 NE loads
How much did you pay for that double ?
What did they tell you was wrong with it after getting it back the first time ?
This is the first time that I have heard the someone have had problems with a Searcy double.

Cheers,

Andr�

I've heard of people having problems with Searcy guns, but wanted to get imput from people who have actually owned them and not just from people who sell other rifles for a living. I've also heard that the William Douglas rifles have had a lot of problems. One dealer told me that he sold three and had to refund the money to two of the owners because of problems (besides, Douglas has gone tits up so no warranty work). None of the dealers I have talked to have had anything but praise for the Chapuis and Heym doubles. But again, I'd like to hear from people who own, hunt, and shoot 'em. A local gunshop has a new Merkel in 416 Rigby for $6300. I don't want a rimless case in a double, but the price is reasonable if it's a good rifle.

I've owned several Chapuis, but if I were going to spend 15K - I'd buy the Heym. They're just fit & finished better.

Although with the euro tradind at 1.33:1.00 - i don't know that 15K will buy a heym anymore!

Gringo,
This is just my opine, but if you are going to buy a double rifle, please buy one chambered in a flanged cartridge.

The flanged case insures extraction/ejection.

The best value would be a William Douglass in .470NE I see you can get one between $10000 and $15000 in the US check Gunsamerica or Gunbroker you should find one. The next one I would go for is a Merkel. You hear of problems with WD but what problems? I own one and I know of another and they are the best! I hear of Merkels "going of face" but I know of 5 owners with calibers ranging from .375H&H,.416Rigby and .470NE and they have no problems at all .I would like to know of what specific problems these above doubles have ? I believe it is more likely some people can not get the feel of a double or the recoil is too stout for them and suddenly there is a problem with the rifle or they are comparing accuracy with a 'scoped bolt rifle. Go with the William Douglass!

Steve

Nothing wrong with a Merkel in the flanged cartridges. Us po' folk like'm a lot. Of course stay away from the double in any belted or rimless case, no matter what maker. They seem to be learning not to do this, but it has been a slow process. No thanks on any pre-WWII double gun by any maker unless it is just for looking and fondling.

jeffry - I think I paid about 8500 for the searcy (a bit of trading was involved) butch searcy never really did say what was wrong, just claimed he had it fixed (both times) and told me the more frightening story of having it happen to him firing a 577 from the bench.

George Douglass was the dealer who said he had to refund the money on two of three Douglass rifles. I don't remember what he said went wrong with them. That was over a year ago when I talked with him. According to him he was in on the initial discussions to bring that rifle to market, but opted out along the way. He said the Douglass rifles are built in Holland and then brought over to GB. He did not have high reguard for the Wm Douglass rifle at all. He suggested a Chapuis, Kreighoff, or Heym. That's why I'm looking for imput from owners. They aren't trying to sell me something out of inventory. How many rounds have you fired through your Douglass rifle? 470ne?

Thanks for the story

Cheers,

Andr�

I have fired 40 Federal and 120 reloads to factory specs. and I have had no problems but I am interested to hear what problems the other WD have had. Thanks

Steve

Anybody have any experience with this particular double?

CHAPUIS BROUSSE NEW 470 The Best Tough Current Double

Style: Double Rifle
Caliber: 470 Nitro Exp.
Price: $ 11500.00

Description: Chapuis Model Brousse in the great 470 Nitro Express. Champlin Firearms has handled more Double Rifles than any Dealer in the World and we feel this is the best buy in any current made serious Dangerous Game double. Has 23 5/8" Ejector barrels with quarter rib 1 standing & 3 folding sights, removeable blocks in the rib for scope mounts, double triggers, beavertail forend, open pistol grip, trapdoor grip cap, bolstered frame, bushed strikers and case color hardened. We feel so strong about these guns mechanically that we will take care of any problems for as long as you own it, except the wood. We have had every current made boxlock double rifle in our shop, have shot them all, worked on all, had all of them apart and we know for fact that you can't buy a better one for the money than a Chapuis. We regulate, re-joint, do triggers, re-barrel and hunt with and shoot a lot of double rifles. We flat know this is one tough, attractive, high precision, go to Africa and have money left for the second Buffalo type of gun. I challenge you to show me a better current double rifle for the money. Any L.O.P and they weight 10 lbs. 5 oz.

They sure look nice
I know the dealer in Denmark and might be able to give me a special price tempting
The dolar is low right now and the us price is not too bad either.
Better keep my money in my pockets for now.

Cheers,

Andr�

Bill C

I have quite a bit of experience with a Chapuis 9,3x74R double, a little over 6 years worth. I have used it in Texas Montana Idaho and Africa. Several thousand rounds fired,lots of game killed with no problems. I have fired 2 different Chapuis 470's and both shot very well. One of my good hunting buddies just bought one and I will be helping him reload for it. With Federal factory 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaws I could hit a rock about the size of the palm of my hand at 50 yards with the iron sights with the right and left bbls. [I had a chance to buy this double but called my friend as he was looking for one, after I shot it I told him I wish I had bought it , it has a very pretty stock to boot.] If I was going to buy a new made big bore double it would be a Chapuis. People I know who work on all brands tell me they are the best of the new made doubles. They like Heym next.

I helped another guy develop loads for his 470 Chapuis and I had no trouble getting 500 grain AND 350 grain bullets to hit with the sights and regulate.



The people at Champlin Arms are very good to deal with.

Gringo,

For what it's worth I own a William Douglas .470. Between "regulating" loads, practice and hunting I have maybe 200 rounds through it. I am the third owner. The gun is "bank vault" tight on the face, sturdy and accurate. I have killed elephant, buffalo and some smaller stuff with it. Previous owners have shot several buffalo and a few elephant. The rifle has stood up well to the real test of African hunting...

They were imported by Cape Outfitters in the 1980s. In fact the inside of the fore-end iorn is marked "Cape Outfitters Importing Co.".

I was able to speak to the maker last year before he went out of business. I give the former address, name and telephone number below. His divorce forced the closure (or so he said). I believe that it was a very small shop, probably two or three people. The actions were imported from Holland and the guns were fitted, finished and regulated in England. I for one can't understand how the use of an imported action would make a difference but that's just my opine.

William Douglas & Sons Ltd
Ford Green Mills
Smallthorne
Stoke-on-Trent
Staffordshire ST6 1NG
Tel: (01782) 545 484
Fax: (01782) 534 555
Member of: Gun Trade Association
Contact Mr D. Sargeant

The rifles were regulated with Federal factory 500gr Woodleigh solids at 50m.

I looked at all the available doubles in the price range you mention and went with the Douglas for the following reasons;
1) fit me best
2) modern steel, as opposed to a vintage double
3) overall fit and finish
4) English design, style

I'm not one to get too emotionally involved with my rifles, often trading or selling them to try something new. This one, however, has stolen my heart. I love this rifle.

I think there is more BS floating around about doubles than any other type of gun. The reason may be that lots of men are very interested in them but because of the high cost few are actually lucky enough to own and shoot them. That's a pity. Anything as sexy and hard to obtain as a double, however, generates lots of talk. I would bet that any of the doubles that have been mentioned in the thread are accurate, durrable and reliable. The only real (potential) problem that I can see is the use of a rimless case. This just does not make mechanical sense given the extraction method of a double.

Have fun with your rifle whatever you choose. Your a lucky man to have both the interest in doubles and the wherwithall to own one (or more).

Best regards;
Brett

I am very happy with my krieghoff. Some don't like the decocking mechanism as opposed to a sefety but I prefer it. The motion for cocking the gun is the same as taking a safety off, the pressure and distance the lever moves are greater, but the essential motion is the same. With a little practice one adepts to it easily. When I am walking with a PH and a couple of trackers I much prefer to have my gun uncocked rather than cocked and on safe. Simply I don't trust safeties. Some also prefer ejectors to extractors. My Krieghoff has extractors.
I don't think that you can go wrong with any of those reccommended here. I suggest that you consider taking in the SCI convention in Reno. Most of these guns will be on display and you can examine them yourself. If you are going to spring for 10 large, than the cost of a quick trip to Reno to actually see and handle the guns ain't much more.

I've owned a few Chapuis: thier big bores 470 and 375. They're good guns, but don't take my word for it. As George (and as most customers of his will attest to), he & JJ know as much about double rifles as anyone on this side of the pond.

I like the double under-hook. It looks more "untraditional," but hey - this is the 21st century, not the 18th anymore and if modern technologies enable improvements over previous disigns... then good for us - the consumer.

As i noted in my earlier post, the problem when buying one today is the exchange rate. I bought my 470 about 3-years ago and it was very reasonable (the euro was trading at .85:1.00 - today it's around 1.33:1:00) and i doubt George's price noted includes the 10-15% we've seen in the last 30-days. In other words, that's probably the price for one he has in stock, not a new order.

A friend of mine bought a 375 last year and hasn't shot it
(I peer-pressured him into it.) Based on the exchange rate increase, you might get a good buy on it. I don't know if he would consider selling it though - just know he hasn't shot it yet.

Call George and ask him how/why he draws that conclusion, i.e.: comparing the chapuis to other guns. I'm sure he's got plenty of reasons.

PS - as stated earlier, IMO the heym is a nicer gun... better fit, finish, etc... but they are about 40-50% more than the chapuis.

The most knowledgeable guy I have come across on doubles is George Caswell at Champlin Firearms in Enid, OK. Check out his website at www.champlinarms.com

He has about 100 doubles in inventory. He sold Capstick his last double rifle and is one of the few people I consider an absolute expert on the subject.

How many rounds did you shoot through your 375 H&H Chapuis? - just over 200 to date.



Did you ever have any failures to eject? No, and neither has anyone else that I've ever heard of or read about... This is a theoretical debate... by definition - it can't contain any logic!



Also does anybody else have any experience with a 375 H&H double. Yes, a few others are owned by posters here and I understand that they are quite pleased with them



I understand the theories around rimless doubles. Yes, the theory is that every major double rifle maker in the world builds them and guarantees them... and yes, I mean every double rifle builder (Purdey, W.R., Holland, A&S, Rizzini, Piotti, Heym, all of the Germans and all of the Ferlachers.)



I know several people who would like a 375 H&H double. Buy a good gun from a good maker and get whatever caliber you want - including a 375



When my funds allow I may have to get one and try it out.

I would like to scope it test reloads in it and shoot a bunch of factory ammo to test its reliability. If you plan to scope it, have it regulated at the factory with the scope... it will shoot differently, and the factory will only regulate for the scope or the iron sights - not both.



Good luck with your future double, and be careful with the opinions you receive from these boards... where only rimmed cartridges actually eject and only 600-nitro+ actually kill African game!



PS - I own a 470 also. So the 375 comments aren't caliber biased.



PSS - watch this thing go now... this kind of talk really gets 'em stirred up over here!

PS - When you get George on the phone, be sure to ask him what he thinks about the Se@*cy double rifles.

When you get Butch Searcy on the phone next time ask him what he thinks about Chapuis...

So much petty discord, yet so many fine rifles out there.

I've got a Searcy .470 with well over 1000 rounds through it. Still shoots under 2 inches at 75 yards and is tight as a drum. Accurate,useable and solid that is how I describe my Searcy. I've killed buffalo, elephant, assorted plains game and American game with mine. I like the Searcy rifles very much.

I also like the other rifles mentioned here. With one exception and that is the kreighoff. They are a fine rifle no doubt but I don't like the how stiff the safety (decocker)feels and I like ejectors very, very, very much. You can't get them on a kreighoff.

Just my humble $.02.

Greg Allyn

Has anyone had any problems with their double?

new_guy
How many rounds did you shoot through your 375 H&H Chapuis? Did you ever have any failures to eject?
Also does anybody else have any experience with a 375 H&H double. I understand the theories around rimless doubles.. but I know several people who would like a 375 H&H double.
When my funds allow I may have to get one and try it out.
I would like to scope it test reloads in it and shoot a bunch of factory ammo to test its reliability.

Gringo Pistelero,

I have a Merkel 470 that I have had no problems with. It has been to Africa 3 times and has 200+ rounds through it.

A friend also has a Merkel 470 with no problems maybe 50 rounds through his gun.

I think all the doubles produced today are fine, people should buy the one that fits and that they like and like the looks of. And in a caliber with a flange.

BigB

450 I am glad you guy works great. I hope mine will have similar performance in the future.

Gringo, I bought the gun in 2001, but I've really only "had it" for a year or so, its spent most of its time with gunsmiths so far...

Here are my thoughts. I own two Jeffery's a 450#2, and 450/400, a.470NE Searcy and a 30-06 Heym. I think the Jeffery's are just too cool. Heft, accuracy, class etc. They are the hands down winners. I've killed a fair amount of game with my Searcy 470NE and have nothing but praise for it and Butch! The Heym is a total POS! Do I make my self clear?-Rob

RLI - I also own a William Douglass. Shot Elephant,buffalo with it this year. I also really like the rifle. Thought I might sell it at one time but plan to keep it. I have shot over 200 rounds now an have had no problems with it at all. I like it for balance, look, and the fact that it does not have a cheekpiece and I am a lefty. Rifle is top quality in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by gringo_pistolero:
I've heard of people having problems with Searcy guns, but wanted to get imput from people who have actually owned them and not just from people who sell other rifles for a living.

I have a Searcy .500. It is more accurate than I am and has accounted for 3 elephants. I have not shot it a lot - probably 300 to 400 rounds so far. No doubling, no misfires. If I were buying a new double I would get the Searcy PH model.



Or you could get this Searcy .577 for $13K:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35931926

Gringo

Is the 416 Rigby the one Classic Arms has listed on Gunsamerica for $7275? If so that's either a lot of markup or a lot of discount. The one in the picture appears to have a pretty nice stock.

I would also steer you toward Searceys doubles, he makes good ones and what is as important, he stands behind them 100%. Now i wish i hadnt spent all that money on my Merkel 25 years ago. Charlie

Saw a very nice Horton last Saturday in 450 3 1/4. Reenforced action with PV4 screwgrip. Ejectors. 100% rose and scroll engraving, 50% original case colour. Re-blacked barrels. Bright barrels and chambers. Nice wood.

Owner claimed it shot into 2 inches at 75 yards. Asking $12,500 probably could be had for $11000 or less. Could bring an easy $15,000 on the open market.

I have owned a lot of doubles or various makes, but my Searcy .470 N.E. is the toughest gun I have ever owned and the most accurate, if fact it won the double gun National shoot with Butch shooting it..I will normally cut one hole at 75 yards.

I don't buy off on Boddingtons "minute of grapefruit" accuracy requirement, I just may want or need to stick one of those big pills in something eyeball and I can do it with my Searcy...

I have shot some 800 rounds through it and its as tight as the day I bought it..I can shoot hotter loads and I can shoot Barnes or any other monolithic in it at 2245 FPS, the velocity it is regulated for..It also shoots all the loads I have played with to the same POI and that apparantly is not unusual as I have talked to others who make the same claim...

I shoot 500 gr. bullets with IMR 4831 at 2245 FPS to POI, 45 grs of 44 something or other with a 500 gr. cast bullet at very low velocity to POI, and 85 or 87 grs. of RL-15 with 5 grs. of Dacron at 2020 amd 2160 FPS respectively, all to the same POI..that is my 4 standard loads for my gun...

I realise it is a very exceptional rifle in accuracy and thus if it every leaves my possession it will be because someone offered me more money than I could refuse and I am after all a gun whore and will sell any of them, that is my weakness...I also know that all the folks that I have talked to that own Searcy rifles like them....

Most doubles that double fire is shooter error as they don't grip them tight enough and the finger kicks the rear trigger during recoil, I have had this happen twice in my life...the other thing about doubles is they get a bum wrap for being inaccurate when in fact again its shooter error, ever notice that no one you know has a flinch, its always the guns fault..ho hum!

My Merkel470NE has fired appox 80 rounds and I find it a good work gun.
A friend fires around six shots per week out of his Merkel470NE total over 900 rounds, this guy has owned Holands and the sort, been offered an apprenticeship from J Taylor, shot lion on his sixteenth birthday with an "30/06", shot black Rino on the Ngorongoro crater rim and loves his Merkel.
The only complaint I have on the MERKEL is the back edges of the trigger is sharp and on recoil of second barrel I have cut my finger to the bone at the first knuckel, a problem that can be fixed by polising off the edge , but it's quite annoying. Has anyone else had this problem? Cheers, Adam C.

(reminder) Ray, your cast lead .470 load is 45.0 grains of XMP5744 powder behind a 500 grain cast lead bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
I'll vote for merkel, but take a look at wm douglas too. I know everybody seems high on searcy, but the one I had was a piece of junk. it would either double or one side would go off and not the other, Sent it back twice with no results, took it to 2 other gunsmiths, neither could do anything. Last one said the design resembled a stevens shotgun & probably would never work right. Wasn't going to argue, I bought it at cabellas & they took back with no questions asked. Latter I found out they ended up selling it and taking it back 3 more times with the same problem. My biggest complaint on the merkel is that I'd like ejectors.

Ladys and gentlemen, there is more to this story than Butchlock is revealing here! I'm not saying he is lieing, and am sure he believes what he is saying,and it could be simply that he doesn't know what was done to this rifle before he got it! However. there is quite a lot of evidence to say his take on this rifle is out in left field.

This rifle was cussed, and discussed till it wore out, a year ago. What he is not telling you is some GUNSMITH, and I use that term loosely, did some modifications on this rifle before it was sent back to Butch. I suspect that it never did really double,but suffered from the guy behind the triggers, letting his finger get on the other trigger because of recoil, till this PLUMBER did his magic on the rifle. After that, it is a wonder it shot at all. This geek even added parts to the rifle, that looked to be cobbled from junk iron! The fact is, I don't believe the rifle doubled in the first place, and I sure wouldn't let the so-called gun smith that worked on this Searcy work on a Daisey BB gun! It may have been Cabella's smith who did the butcher work, I don't know, and maybe Butchlock didn't know it either! Because of this work done on the rifle, understandably, Butch had a problem with fixing it, since it was worked on by the "HACKSAW" opperator before it was sent to Butch!

A double rifle, or shotgun that truley doubles has one of two things wrong. The sear springs are too weak, or the sear engagement is cut at the wrong angle, or both. Either, or both, are easily fixed by a QUALIFIED smith who understands double rifle lock systems.

I wouldn't put too much faith in this claim as to the quality of the B. Searcy double rifle! There are simply too many of them in the field without any problem at all, and they are fast becoming the choice of PHs all over Africa.

Mac,

I remember the story about the Cabela's Searcy double. This is not meant as an attack on butchloc, just a partial repeat of the other side of the story. When Mr. Searcy heard this story the first time, it did not fit with any of the guns he had sold. So he contacted Cabelas who was actually able to identify the rifle in question. They had sold it to another customer rather than returning it to Searcy, and the other customer did not have trouble with it.

Caveat: I am repeating this from memory, which is fallible. Perhaps Mr. Searcy will want to post here and fill in or correct details.

One thing to keep in mind about doubling. Some guns double because a sear lets go. That is repairable. Other guns double because the shooter accidentally drags his finger across the second trigger as the first barrel goes off. That situation is correctable with practice on the shooter's part, or if the shooter will agree to fire the rear trigger first, then the front trigger. But many people are just careful when shooting a double and have no difficulty.