The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Re: I'm swearing off belted cases forever!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
Ray, I respect your opinion but do you have a copy of NRA's "Handloading"? | ||
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one of us |
Quote: Ditto! | |||
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| one of us |
I had one of the most frustrating shooting sessions last weekend. I was out with my wife's uncle and shooting his Browning A-bolt in 375 H&H. What a PITA!!! Everything from loading the rounds into the magazine to getting the rifle to cycle without jamming was terrible. It worked fine when loading things one at a time, but trying to slide rounds fore and aft in the loading port to get them into the magazine was bad - the belts kept catching on each other so I couldn't manuver them. Then, the push-feed SOB kept jamming. I got more than 5 double-feeds/jams in less than 20 minutes! Maybe it was just me and not being familiar with the rifle. After all, he has shot so many big bears and African game with it, I lose count. All I know is, I gave up on it after 20 or 30 minutes of trying. If that is the overall joy of shooting belted rounds - count me out. Maybe they work better in a CRF action? If I can equate my inexperience with this particular rifle to the same sort of operational difficulties a high-stress situation could cause, this is not the answer. On a positive note, actually _firing_ the rifle was great. Very accurate. Because of the muzzle brake, it only had about 1/2 the recoil of my 45-70, which we were shooting right alongside it. I'm not sure that I would want one installed, as it was quite loud and made the barrel even longer (that thing was a real spear!). This is definitely making the 375RUM look much better. I have never had reliability issues like this in any rifle shooting a regular rimless round, push or controlled feed. Even if I only loaded the RUM to match H&H velocities, I would be far better off without the belt. This just clinched it for me. Beltless and proud of it!!! Opinion firmly fixed, maxman | |||
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| Moderator |
It sounds more like a problem with the operator than the concept of belted cases. The fact that your uncle doesn't have problems with the rifle should tell you something. George | |||
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| one of us |
Blaming the cartridge for operator error and blaming the cartridge for a rifle that won't feed seems a bit misplaced to me... I shoot my Custom 416, Mauser 375, Mauser 338, M-70 300 H&H, and not one of them as ever failed to feed or extract.. Look within thyself hunter, or is this just another one of those 45-70 broadsides that have lost all thier velocity!  | |||
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| one of us |
Frankly, I've never been able to tell any difference in feeding between beltless and belted rounds in a bolt action rifle. Some examples of rifles I own (or have owned): Beltless: .25-06, 7x57, .30-06, .338-06, .35 Whelen, .416 Rigby Belted: .300 H&H, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag, .340 Weatherby, .375 H&H No offense intended but I suspect that there is either something wrong with the rifle or there is operator error. Just my two cents.... -Bob F. | |||
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| one of us |
Like I said - this sure could be my fault, but I'd like to think that after 20 or 30 minutes I would have been able to get cartridges in to the magazine without too much difficulty. I've done it before with all sorts of rifles that weren't in anything belted with nary a problem. I guess they are just not for me. I've never liked belted brass, but I do know and hunt with people who shoot the things and they love them. Maybe it's all a subliminal disposition I have... I'm sure the failure to feed was most likely my problem in short stroking the bolt, but often the top round in the magazine would not pop up correctly and then would cause the bolt to jam it off kilter in the action. No double feed there - that unit just did not release from the mag right and go in the proper direction. This was with factory PMC ammo in their 300 gr X-bullet load. Maybe this type has other issues? I haven't shot much ammo from PMC - actually, I haven't shot any factory ammo for quite a long time  maxman | |||
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| one of us |
And Ray - I do love the 45-70, but I know it's limitations. It's not a DG cartridge. Never will be much use in Africa, unless you are shooting warthogs or other smaller game. It works real well for deer in the close woods of northern MN, though, and I really enjoy shooting it! I'll never understand why people push things like this. They might be the same sort that try to pick up 1000 lbs of drywall at Home Depot using their Honda Accord (I've seen pics of this sort of thing - too funny!!). Use the right tool for the right job. I am looking into the .375 bore for larger game, but this experience has really soured me on belted brass. Honestly, it should not be that hard to load the magazine. I could feel the belts catching on each other as I positioned the next round. The first one went in real nicely, but the next ones were difficult to load. Whether it is me, the rifle, or the round, I think I'll be better off shooting things without a belt. I guess to each his own. maxman | |||
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| one of us |
Most here must know by now my opinon of belted cartridges. They are indeed a useless abomination. Of course we would not have the 458 Win/Lott without some sort of belt or rim. Now to the problem. It is possible that the particular ammo you have is made wrong. The belts could have sharp edges on them or be larger in diameter for instance. In any case a fixed, staggered magazine can be jammed up unless the cartridge is dragged back by the thumb after pressing it in. I think most of us do this automatically and we don't think of it anymore. If this is not done with any round and one of the cartridges is too far forward then the next one will press the bullet of the round under it into the feed ramp. So just drag each one back and try it again. We are stuck with the .375 HH cartridge due to the vagarities of history. It's an historic cartridge as well and we might as well just get used to it. They feed just fine. Try again. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm sure the failure to feed was most likely my problem in short stroking the bolt,< !--color--> Operator error. but often the top round in the magazine would not pop up correctly and then would cause the bolt to jam it off kilter in the action. < !--color--> There is probably something wrong with the rifle. The cartridge itself is not necessarily at fault. The feeding needs to be looked at by a gunsmith. Just my opinion and advice... -Bob F. | |||
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one of us |
What does any of this have to do with cartridge belts? | |||
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Moderator |
Belted cases, rimless cases, rebated head cases, rimmed cases and semi rimmed all have something in common. Unless the magazine and feed rails are properly sized for the cartridge, none of them will feed well. The 375 H&H is nearly 100 years old, and with a proven field record in many different actions. If you have a faulty action, or use the wrong bullets, then yes, you will have problems. With a good action, and good bullets, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the case. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: And therin lies the problem. I was having some real trouble getting the cartridges aligned in the magazine. With non-belted cases, this sliding back of the rounds is done without a thought, and all the bases lie against the end of the magazine. The other day, I was not able to do this. The belts kept hanging up on each other, preventing me from getting the cartridges into the magazine properly. what a pain! It was very frustrating to say the least! I certainly don't want to have that kind of hassle at the range, let alone while hunting. I guess I just don't have any use for belts. I know some people think they are great, and they have been around forever, etc - but they just irritate me. maxman | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Well maybe but that has not been my experience. I just put belted cases down in the magazine like any other cartridge. I don't make a conscious effort to drag each one back in the magazine as I insert them. My rifles always seem to feed fine. I think frets over a belted case are over blown nowadays. The lip on the belt really isn't that large. I've never experienced a problem with one case sliding over another. Now, using a rimmed (flanged cartridge) like the .303 British in a bolt action is another story. There you do have to make sure the rounds are loaded in a proper way in the magazine. (Each rim ahead of the rim on the round below it.) I still think it is more likely that the real problem is that there is something wrong with the feeding on BigIron's rifle. He did say that it was a Browning A-Bolt. Does it happen to have a detachable magazine? Is it designed to be loaded with the magazine out of the rifle and not loaded from the top while the magazine's in the rifle? I don't know the answers so that's why I'm asking. Also, if it does have a detachable magazine, have the feed rails/lips been damaged? I just don't see how one bad experience with one particular rifle can lead to the conclusion that all belted cases are bad which is how BigIron started this thread. I just think that's faulty logic / inductive reasoning. -Bob F. | |||
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| one of us |
It was a regular A-bolt with a fixed blind magazine. Maybe I'm just sensitive, but this really bugged me. I know lots of people shoot belted stuff every day with no problems. I just don't like how they look, and now I am leery of how they function. I just will stay away from them, and then all you folks that do shoot belted cartridges will have just that much more ammo that I won't be using - deal?  Just wanted to vent a little anyway. I've never had that much trouble with a rifle, ever. maxman | |||
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| one of us |
The A-bolt I had had the detachable/permanent magazine and was meant to be loaded with the magazine out of the rifle. I would assume yours is the same way. Savage 99, the belt is your problem not the problem of the designer. Ignore the darn thing and treat a case so equipped like any other case. There is really no practical difference between them. | |||
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| One of Us |
Well maybe but that has not been my experience. I just put belted cases down in the magazine like any other cartridge. I don't make a conscious effort to drag each one back in the magazine as I insert them. My rifles always seem to feed fine. With the exception of the Weatherby Mark V in 375 and the various Magnum Mauser actions like the CZ, I can't think of any other 375s where the magazine is long enough to give the option of sliding 375s backwards and forwards Mike | |||
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one of us |
Never had a problem, I guess as many thousands more everywhere can say the same. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: maxman, Man, nothing wrong with venting a little after having a bad day!! Rest assured that I wasn't trying to "jump on you" about your posts. You stated your opinion and you have right to it! I think what most of us here are trying to say to you is that just having one bad experience with belted cases in only one particular rifle is really not a broad enough sample to base a general conclusion upon that belted cases are bad. The problems you described lead me to believe that there is something wrong with that particular rifle. And hey!, if you just don't like the look of belted cases and don't want to use them then that's your right to! Buy and use what you want and what makes you happy! But I think you may be jumping too quickly to conclusions. If you get a chance, try some belted cases in a different rifle. Plus, and this is only my personal opinion, I'm just not very impressed with Browning A-Bolt rifles. (I'm not trying to start a brand war here guys. No flames please. If you have an A-Bolt and you like it, then that's fine with me.)< !--color--> That's why I was trying to urge you to have the rifle checked for feeding by a gunsmith. I just think there's something that needs correcting on the rifle itself. I don't think the feeding problems are being caused by the use of a belted case. Just my 2 cents worth and probably my worthless opinion... -Bob F. | |||
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one of us |
Quote: Maxman, what you have here has nothing to do with the cartridge design, but a rifle that doesn't feed properly, or a person who doesn't know how to load it properly, or Both! The 375 H&H was born in 1912, and is one of the most reliable feeding cartridges ever designed. I certainly can't say so much for the reliability of Browning A-bolt! Of course, first, you have to have a rifle that can opperate with any cartridge,as well as a shooter who is proficient with the rifle!  Let's put the blame where it belongs! This is a combination of operator failier, and poor rifle design! what cha thank?  | |||
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one of us |
Like many others have said, the problem was operator error and a crappy A-bolt that would not feed. It has noting to do with belted cartridges. In fact some of the smoothest feeding rounds in existance are belted. You should try my 450 ackley mag on a pre-64 win action. It feeds incredibly smoothly, right side up, down, sideways at any angle. I don't think that A-bolt will do that! Heck my .600 feeds flawlessly and it has a BIG BAD BELT!-Rob | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Allen, I agree on A Bolts. Not so much as to their design or quality but the made in japan part is enough to turn me off. I am proceeding on the rest of the response on the assumption that you mean belted cases and not beltless cases. The first really bad chamber I encounterd with a belted case was the 1969 Ruger #1 in 7mm RM. I noticed insipiant head separations after about a half dozen reloads. I already knew how to set the headspace just right with the FL die but I wondered why they still thinned out at the web? So I looked in my 1981 publication "Handloading" from the NRA. In there are the chamber and cartridge drawings. Once one studies the differences between rimless and belted chambering and cartridges you will appreciate what a poor design belted cartridges are! Now Allen we have gone over this again and again here. Perhaps you should call up one of your gunsmiths and talk it over with them. I am sure they understand the problems involved here and adjust for it as best they can. Here are a couple of the threads: www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=370333&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1]www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=370333&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=457573&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 | |||
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| <allen day> |
Once again, you're ducking the question, so I'll ask it one more time: HOW MUCH ACTUAL HUNTING HAVE YOU UNDERTAKEN WITH BELTED MAGNUM CARTRIDGES? AD | ||
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| one of us |
Savage 99, Here is the extent of D'Arcy Echols problems with them. Courtesy of one your thread links. Quote: I was actually looking for that quote earlier in the thread. Thanks for finding it for me. P.S. How do those threads help your cause. | |||
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| Moderator |
"It was a regular A-bolt with a fixed blind magazine." If there is there such an A-Bolt, I've never heard of it. From day one, A-Bolts came with a detachable magazine, which snaps firmly onto a hinged floorplate. Either you failed to recognize such and tried to load it incorrectly or you are mistaken as to the manufacturer of the rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: Allen, When a person, using their congnative reasoning, knows that something is wrong then they avoid it. This way they don't waste time, safety or resources on paths that are of less benefit. For instance when POP first brought up the Match King topic and I glanced at it I knew, by cognative reasoning, that MK's were wrong for that application. This is why I did not read let alone participate in that thread. I hope that you did not waste time reading it or even worse hunting with MK's! Here are the drawings   | |||
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| <allen day> |
Still ducking the question, I see... So the truth is, you haven't taken any animals with belted magnums, and you're trying to disguise your lack of honest experience by hiding behind a theoretical facade. Do you think we don't see through this thin little shell game of yours? But, I guess if theory's all you have to go by, then theory's the only card you have to play, right? Now how do you explain the fact that I have owned many rifles chambered for belted magnums over the last twenty-five years, have fired thousands and thousands of rounds of belted magnum ammunition, and have taken scores and scores of animals with belted-magnums, and with zero problems? Quite honestly, I think you're as full of crap and hot air as a Xmas turkey, and you're struggling to stay in a game where you're in completely over your head........ AD | ||
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| Moderator |
You could just answer the question and settle the issue. George | |||
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| one of us |
Quote:  Just my opinion.... -Bob F. | |||
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| one of us |
Allen, Note that after you posted again I added the drawings to my post above. I am offering very specific facts. Post your facts. | |||
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| one of us |
What do the drawings prove.They show that the on the belted case ahead of belt the case is the same thickness(sometimes more)as a non-belted case the same distance frome base.I have sectioned many cases of both types and never found a belted case with thinner walls than a comparable size non-belted case. I have developed and tested for thousands of round belted cased wildcats.I have had a belted case in my 458HE hold an overload of 150,000 psi.I have loaded 458 Win cases a 100 times. The left case(458HE left and right, with 458 Win in middle) in the picture below has been loaded a 100 times with 350 gr bullets at 31-3200 fps.(moderate load)..Ed.  | |||
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| one of us |
Holy cow - didn't mean to hit the biggest nerve ever.... To all you who have hunted/shot with belted cartridges: good on you! I'm very glad that you have found appropriate cartridges that work well for you! There is a reason that both belted and non-belted cases are made, right? Why does one HAVE to use one or the other??? Personal preference! My preference, along with others I would assume, is to use non-belted brass. There are obviously equal performers in both types of cartridges, so it all boils down to personal preference. I can't see why I have to defend my preference - I'm not asking you all to quit using your favorite belted mags! They work for you - go nuts! I will be staying away from them. I can't criticize you for using them - that's your preference. I can own up to any operator errors - it was the first time I shot the darn thing! But, I can't see why simply getting rounds into the magazine was so difficult. You can't tell me that you are not allowed to drop in new rounds through the port in the action - that would be completely absurd. You have to drop the floorplate, remove the magazine, load the rounds, snap in the magazine, and then close the floorplate just to top it off?? Crazy. If that is the A-bolt philosophy, then I don't want any part of that either. I don't shoot anything Browning, so my experience is limited here. Can't we all just get along? I hate this kind of squabbling over nothing important. Let's argue about something else. How about Ford Vs. Chevy? Don't even get me started on Mopar... maxman | |||
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| one of us |
Quote: That is the way it was designed. You can't feed cartridges into that box through the ejection port whether belted or not in that rifle. The reasons are the same reasons I can't jump out of my Saturn and turn in the hubs on the rear wheels. It wasn't designed for that. Stupid I know  , but thems the facts. And to base dislike on belted cartridges for that reason is absurd. Savage 99, you sound more and more like a troll all of the time. | |||
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| one of us |
I've read all of the theoretical reasons why we shouldn't be using belted cases. However, I read them afer I had already used them for forty years without any problems of my own. Therefore I no longer care about the benefits of unbelted cases, I think I am more likely to have trouble with any new rifle than with my old and proven ones. | |||
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one of us |
I only own one A-Bolt in 22 Hornet and you most definitely cannot load through the port. It feeds single column centered on the bore. A great shooter but a pain to feed fast. | |||
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| one of us |
Ive used belted cartridges since 1968, shot thousands of rounds, hunted with them, and never had a problem. At least no problems that the belt created. Used them to a small amount in push-feed actions and mostly in CRF actions. All fed and aextracted without a hitch. | |||
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one of us |
Quote: Maxman, I bought one box of PMC Eldorado .375 H&H with their 300 grain X-bullet (made under license to Barnes). I don't remember now why I bought it 9 years ago (I think I was working on an article on factory .375 ammo), but I can tell you it was not well-assembled ammunition. I returned one round wherein the case neck was crushed and the bullet canted too far to feed. I thought they might send me a box of ammo, but they returned a single round. The PMC didn't shoot well in either of my .375 H&H rifles, so I put the box aside to use for foulers at the range. I have shot a flock of belted magnum rounds hunting (.375 H&H and 7mm Rem Mag) with no problems feeding, and also on the target range (.30-.338). I don't have any A-Bolt experience, and am unlikely to gain any. jim dodd | |||
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| one of us |
Maxman, What is the problem?, in your case use a non belted 375 like the RUM or something off the 404 case..If I didn't like a belt I would simply use a beltless case... | |||
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| one of us |
maxman, When 'GeorgeS' said, Quote: Told the whole story. I have been shooting belted magnums for over 40 years with NEVER a loading problem. The .375 H&H has been working in bolt actions of every type for more years than many other cartridges. If it hadn't worked it wouldn't be around. As for the .375 RUM, I don't think it will be around that much longer. Remington is cutting back on the rifles it is offering for this cartridge due to poor sales. The bean counters rule the business world and if it does not make a profit it will not be around long. Lawdog | |||
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