Like Maxman said; lighten up, everyone. Now he knows.

Having actually built and designed a belted magnum case. Let me add a few simple points. First a belt is an extremely simple and really rather elegant approach to headspacing. There are one heck of alot of 1000yrd winning cartridges out there that use a belt for extremely positive headspacing and if you follow along below you'll understand why. Accuracy with belted cartridge is just as good as that obtained by cartridges that use the shoulder to headspace from. The headspace being the distance from the back of the belt to the boltface. This is equivalent to the using the middle of the shoulder to boltface distance on a non-belted cartridge. It's easy to measure and easy to produce . For example the .600 OK has a back of belt to boltface distance of .260. A go guage will be .260 and the bolt won't close on a .263 no-go guage. When I had Horneber make my .600 OK cases he made the brass measure from the face of the rim to the back of the belt .259. The bolt will now close on the .001 difference or gap between the boltface and cartridge rim face.. The problem with belted brass is the manufacturers are sloppy and you can often find brass thats as much as .010 too short in certain guns. When you fire such a round the case stretches behind the belt. Now when cases have a shoulder(i.e a 300 win or .378 wby) the brass flows up to that shoulder and if you don't set the shoulder back by Full length resizing, end of problem. You now have a case that headspaces off the shoulder and doesn't even need the belt. Just neck size and no more problems. If you FL resize and set the new shoulder back, you will get case separations very quickly! In the case of a straightwalled belted magnum like a .458 win or Lott the case has no shoulder and case separations should occur faster, however, these cases when sectioned are often thicker just behind the belt and while they worst ones show some slight bulging just behind the belt, I've experienced very few case separations with up to 3-4 reloadings. This sloppiness is why some people report only getting 3-5 reloadings from a belted magnum case.
The answer is simple, using a go guage add some pieces of shim stock until the bolt will just close with some feel! Measure the thickness of the shim stock and the distance between the back of the belt and the face of the guage using a height guage on a granite block.Now sort through the various manufacturers brass till you find some that is within .003 of that measurement. Your problems will go away and your belted brass will last for Many Many reloadings! Most folks do this without knowing what is happening as they simply find factory brass that works in their guns. This seems to occur about 99% of the time.
Of course you still have to put the bullets in the magazine pointy end first. I will end by not saying anything about Savage 99 other than I established long ago that he is just a phony!-Rob

Very good Rob...that about sez it all and add to that that most original belted cases had enough slope and lack of shoulder that extraction would come about even with a failed case, very important in a DGR IMO....but then the American smiths had to shorten it , blow it out, and create a multitude of problems that did not exist in the beginning..when they got through with that they got involved in stock design...

I just grabbed my dad's A-Bolt and ran several rounds through it, from the magazine, with the gun up-side down. All of them feed just fine; chambered cartridge extracted/ejected, next one in magazine ended up in the chamber. Of course this gun is a .270, although I have a feeling if it were a .300WM or a .375H&H it would have worked just the same. BTW, I even loaded the magazine though the ejection port.

A-Bolt's are not a gun I have ever liked, or even would have looked at untill my father won this one. The worst thing I can say about it is that its a .270Win with a 22 inch barrel and a BOSS, which is just a dumb configuration.

It would seem to me that this gent's problem is his and his alone, neither design of gun or cartridge is at fault.

And no I would not want to go to Africa with an A-Bolt, but I would also not want to go with a Rem or Sako or Marlin. Not for fears of unreliability, but because they are just the incorrect guns. Just like the .375 RUM and 10.57 Meteor are the incorrect cartridges.

Kristofer

For small bores(416s,458s,etc) the Browning is fine.

You can leave round in chamber and drop floorplate and top

off magazine if you have to.Easiest loading drop mag

ever.Just pivot down,floorplate holds mag, and put in

shells.And for guys with hands and fingures like me it is easier that way to get them in right..



And Rob is correct about how good belts are for headspacing.

Of course the dimensional quality must be there,(same as

for non-belted cases).Factories can't make chambers .006

longer than belt headspace, and make brass .012 shorter than

belt headspace called for without having brass stretch.

That has happened!!And worse!!We have seen hundreds of posts

about non-belted calibers, with oversize chambers and

smaller brass together causing problems.Which hasn't stopped any great numbers of shooters from using non-belted stuff..Ed.

Not every gunsmith agrees with RobGunbuilder.

Here is one who points out some facts rather than generalizations.

www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=206844&Forum=,,,,,,,,All_Forums,,,,,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=8&Limit=25&Main=206837&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=1031&daterange=1&newerval=&newertype=w&olderval=9&oldertype=m&bodyprev=#Post206844

SAme problems apply to over half the guns I have handled
using regular cases.Bolt, pump, lever, autoloading,
whatever.Long in chamber, shorter in brass.One thing about belts is if too much slop, knurl belt with light
grooving from pliers.Works great.And my experience with
developing 4 belted cases(soon to be 6), testing thousands of rounds, isn't about generalizations, but specific empirical data
and results...ED.

I have used a variety of belted-case cartridges in CRF bolt-actions for over 40 years, and have never had an experience such as you describe! Seems to me your problem is an improperly adjusted rifle action, not cartridge-case design!!

You are absolutely right. The crux of this thread is a problem with a semi-disfunctional, second-rate factory rifle - not the belted case design itself.

When you consider all of the African professional hunters, international trophy hunters, and serious, experienced "regular" hunters who have basically built careers around the use of belted cartridges such as the .375 H&H, .458 Win. Mag., .300 Weatherby, 7mm Rem. Mag., .338 Win. Mag., .300 Win. Mag., et al, it boggles the imagination and defies common sense to state that there is any practical flaw with the belted case that can't be dealt with simply by the use of a mechanically-sound rifle with a proper feeding system and a properly cut chamber.

And Savage 99, all I can say is I wish you lived locally so that I could invite you over to look at various trophy collections (including my own) that were largely assembled via the use of belt-magun cartridges. In fact, one of my local friends has a trophy room that's over 5,000 sq. ft. in size (three stories), and most of the animals in it were taken with a .300 Weatherby over a forty-year time span. He hasn't had any proplems with the belted case at all, even though you - with all of your vast inexperience to call upon - says he should......

AD

Savage99, I'm not trying to fan your's and Allen's fire storm, but I'd like to know what the drawings prove!

maxman If you really dont want a belted Mag
try a 9.3x64 Ber.. its none belted and comes real close to the 375 H & H ..Now about the 45/70 being not up to taking
DG well your just wrong sorry .
A Marlin GS Action Is A 45.000 PSI action the heavy loads
are between 34.000 and 40.000 ...these are not your gand pa's marlins



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Cuss me up and down if you like ..

Pottsy

savage99- Excuse me, but just where do I and John Ricks disagree? A belted case whose back of belt to rim dimension is too short will expand to fit the chamber on firing, period! John is simply saying the same thing! Unless the shoulder of that case is set back by FL resizing, END OF PROBLEM, PERIOD. Accuracy and case life will be unaffected. You will not get case separations unless you set the shoulder back! So where exactly is the problem with belted cases? How much bigger a problem do you really believe this is versus non-belted cases who's shoulder to rim face dimensions are also too short? This also causes non-belted cases to expand. Just go to a local rifle range and take a look at some of the brass laying around there. Ever notice the obvious case expansion marks? Guess what, case was too short versus the chamber! The brass streched on firing to fit the chamber. That brass has to go somewhere! All brass is a compromise with the most consistent being the most commonly used in general.Fortunately the same holds true for factory chambers in the most common calibers.The issue here is not belted vs non-belted cases, It's just a poor guy who was unfamiliar with a crappy rifle. Don't try and make an issue out of something you clearly don't understand. Isn't this a little like one of your other posts about how you've shot thousands of 220 Swift rounds and never had to turn or trim the cases because they don't flow brass? Your the only person in existance to make that claim unless of course you were only talking about factory brass and you never reloaded them.-Rob

Rob,



The problem is as I have stated. The belted case gets damaged more than a rimless case because the shoulder gets blown out more due to the inferior design of the belted cases. The design problem is evident in the drawings. Since the relationship of the belt cannot have zero manufacturing tolerance to the shoulder the chamber has to clear something so they had to make the dimension of the belted case's shoulder datum all on the plus side (.010")! This is the crux of belted design conundrum.



All of this is a fact. Now just because someone above "never had a problem" is really not factual. Things vary of course and we all agree that there are case designs of all kinds that have excessive headspace. But this is a manufacturing problem (or damage) and not built in like the belted case.



By the way. I have not read up on your 600 Overkill but that must be a shoulderless case? Such cases of course would not exist without a belt, semi rim, rim or headspace on the mouth and therefore are exempt from this discussion.



What the experimentors like Ackley and others should have done is to clear the belt and just leave it on there for the "magnum" look on cases that can headspace on the shoulder. This is what I did on my design which Iver Hendrickson complemented as the finest drawing he has ever seen! I cleared the belt (because I wanted to duplicate the PPC low aspect ratio) but have a larger case. It was easier to use the 6.5 RM brass from what was out there in 1987.

This borders on hilarious. Unbelievable! I'm physically shaking my head.

Chuck,



Note that I just edited my post as you made yours.



Rob,



There is nothing about the design or practice of the 220 Swift cartridge that makes it flow. Of course all cartridge cases "flow" There are a number of causes of this case growth. First is that if they are FL sized and the chamber is large at the expansion web then the FL sizing will push metal forward. Thus the case grows. Of course all chambers must clear the shoulder as well so there is growth for this reason also. Of course expanding buttons drag metal forward. Chambers have clearance from the case and that's another reason for growth. Overloading is another reason. Perhaps you could comment on Winchester chambers and FN for that matter. They seem to be larger than some others at the expansion web? This would be another reason as many Swifts are of Winchester manufacture.



The 220 Swift has the same body taper as the 257 Roberts and a much sharper shoulder than the 308 Winchester. It also has a stronger web than the 22-250. So as you can see there is no reason for the case to grow any more than others under similar circumstances.

P.O. Ackley's wildcats, truth be know, were an impractical waste of time, but then he as an experimenter, not a hunter, and his inexperience in the field really showed, and I say this based upon the sorts of things he misprioritized in terms of cartridge atributes.

You won't fine ammunition for any of Ackley's cartridges available in remote hunting locals anywhere in the world, but you WILL find .300 Winchester and .375 H&H ammo. Lose the luggage containing your ammo on the other side of the world or drop it overboard in SE Alaska and you'll see how important this type of consideration truly is. I've been there. Logistical sense outweighs paper & pencil theory any day of the week........

Your claim that belted cases are easily damaged is just plain pure, out-and-out bullshit. I have used them under the tougest conditions you could ever imagined - from Alaska to Africa - in more than twenty states and seven foreign countries. I have NEVER experienced or observed any cartridge failure that could be traced to a problem with that bloody, awful belt. I haven't heard of anyone else who has, either.

What especially bothers me about you is that you duck all questions about your hunting experiences or personal experience with belted cases, and yet have the zinc-plated gaul to argue - based upon theory only - with those who have used belted magnums extensively and for many years; who've paid the price, the hard price, to know these things based upon first-hand experience.

You must look in the mirror and lie to yourself. So far, your hogwash and inexperience has been see for exactly what it is. I depise, and I mean DESPISE stubborn ignorance, and I loath those who duck direct questions. I'm afraid you've flunked out with me on all counts, and I want nothing to do with you from this point forward.

AD

Of all the "intellectually challenged" posts I've seen, this one ranks right up there. I'll just add this; two of the arguably most popular cartridges ever, the 375 H&H and the 300 Win Mag ( and there are many more ) that have been used by a lot of hunters world wide from Siberia to the Khalahari have never shown any demonstrable weaknesses and all of a sudden they are prone to failure? Give me a break. I have belted cases mostly from 340 and 300 Weatherby ammo that I have reloaded more than 10 times with no problems, feeding, rupture or otherwise. If you don't like belted cases that's fine only don't try and tell the rest of us that they are bad based on what appears to be limited experience. jorge

Allen Day,



I did not answer your irrelevant question about hunting experiance and cartridge design. I suggest that you calm down please. Of course shooting experiance would be relevant.



I got my first belted magnum around 1961. It was a Mauser with a 26" barrel and a plain stock. What was unusual about the barrel was that it had a 1-12 twist! I used it for long range woodchuck shooting and it had normal accuracy.



We (target shooters) knew of the problems with short case life with belted cases back then. The word was to feel inside the case with a wire hook and throw out the brass when it got thin at the web. Of course the FL die had to be set right but that's the same for all other designs as well.



The thing about Ackley and others is that they blew out the 300 HH and others and headspaced them on the belt. If Ackley had done what he had to do when he copied Kibourn and set the headspace on the shoulder on rimless cases we would not have been stuck with the belted case problem. Cartridges like the 300 WM could headspace on the shoulder. This would be better. The belt is still a useless appendage however for cartridges with adequate shoulders.



I am sorry if I got you all worked up. Why don't you email me or even call me and we can talk this over. For cripes sakes Allen we are all really on the same side.

Ken Waters for one, recommended for years that belted cases should be headspaced on the datum line of the shoulder, as rimless cases are, and is accomplished by properly adjusting the resizing die to do same, and not push the shoulder back--same with rimless cases. Too many simply screw the sizing die down until it touches the shell holder and if the die is short and the chamber long, the problem is exacerbated to the degree of difference. Waters touches on the subject several times in his "Pet Loads" books and in the supplements also.

A case in point: I have a 350 Mag and CH dies that are very short, and if the sizing die is not adjusted to where there is an ever so slight feel when the bolt is closed, it pushes back the shoulder a bunch, thus you get about 3 loadings per case, and insipient head separation occurs. Ive not had the amount of pushback in other belted cases I reload for but still some.

What happens if you turn the belt off of the case? Has anyone ever tried that? Would the case flow into the belt counterbore in the chamber?

With my RCBS 300 Win mag dies it is practically impossible to not full length resize. If you turn the die up enough to not set back the shoulder, you only have the 60% - 70% of the length of the neck resized. This doesn't sit with me well for a hunting cartridge. I know you can buy neck sizing dies (or you can hard bore out your full length dies too).

Scott

More than 60-70 % is sized, in fact, you probably cant tell the diff as the die is within 1/4 or so off the shell holder. Depending on the chamber length and the sizing die length.

People have been turning the belts off of cases for wildcats for years. Some for experimentation and others for making one case into another. I cant think of specific examples at the moment, but have read in the past of the practice. Maybe Ackley's manual was the source.

Savage99,

Quote:

---

knew of the problems with short case life with belted cases

---

Just what do you consider "short case life"? Please put a number on this. Lawdog

Savage 99,
I simply cannot agree with your arguement, but it has been an arguement in existence for many years, but my test have never proven it to be so...

The belt changes nothing, not one thing one way or the other than extraction, so take it or leave it...The arguement is moot IMO...

I shoot belted, rimmed, rimless, non belted, rebated cases and rimfires, and if the gun is correct then none of them will give you a problem...

The beauty of a belt is that you can use a torpedo looking tapered case like the 300 H&H and 375 H&H and if a case blows or you have problems that would otherwise cause sticky or stuck extraction then the tapered case will slip right out and not jam the gun...I have witnessed this on more than a few ocassions..it works....I like it..

It is "cool" these days to be a belt basher, it gives some a feeling of status and knowledge, but one of these days this same school of thought, after no more belts are available and have been put to rest, will throw their brilliant heads up 100 years from now, and resurect the belted case and make great claims of its greatness, just like they made a new discovery, its been going like that for years, ask the Germans and the English, they have already done everything that we are doing today like the the .470 capstick, all the new wildcats and new factory cartridges, new square bridge actions, single shots, etc..all thats old hat.

But in all seriousness, the belted magnums will be here long after this new rash of cartridges has gone by the wayside from lack of sales, and justly so IMO, I have seen nothing that has impressed me so far..They can change the shape of a case, give it a funny name, spend a million on advertising campaigns and sell them to the suckers, and they will do the same thing as the 270, 280, 06, 300 and 375 will do...now ain't that sumpt'en.