I have a good hunting buddy that is slight of build. He handels the 375 H&H well enough but the 40 calibers give him fits. I have a 416 Taylor that he can shoot. For some reason it is the easiest 416 I have ever shot. My wife has shot the Taylor at African game. He bought a G&H 404 Jeffery a few years ago and It beats him up too much. I am thinking of doing a rifle in 404 Dakota for him so he has factory brass available and we have so many 404 bullets available to shoot. Has anyone chambered the 404 Dakota and what load data are you using? How is the felt recoil of that round. My favorite load for the 416 Taylor is 72 gr. H4895 with most any 400gr bullet. Recently we have been using the 380gr. GScustom FN solid and with that bullet we load 68gr H4895 for a velocity of 2350. It flat works and both he and my wife can shoot it well. I am trying to duplicate that loading with the Dakota round. Is it possible?

Possibly his G&H was too light. My .404jeffery comes in at a bit over 10# scoped & while not "pleasent" to shoot, it is managable off the bench, no problems from field positions. I would actually go w/ the jeffery, brass is plentifull from Norma & you can buy a factory rifle in the CZ. The .416Rigby would also be good handloaded to 2200fps (that's about where I run the .404j). The Dakota is actually a bit more cartridge than the .404j. Handloaded, there is little diff.

LB,
Why dont you just duplicate the stock on your Taylor? then build him up another Taylor.
I know where you can get some more good wood!

And how long is the barrel on your Taylor. those are some great FPS's.

Adam, you wood hound, I would do another 416 Taylor but it seems a little wiser to try something with similar case capicity with bonified factory cases that are properly head stamped.

FredJ338, his Jeffery weighs 10.5 lbs with two mercury recoil reducers in it. I just think it hits him pretty hard. He like I, are not getting any younger.

I think making this new rifle up in something that approaches the 416 Taylor in case volume, might be a good thing. I was looking for some options and this looked like a possibility. The AR lineup of cases looked good, however, being able to order and receive new cases properly stamped is a real bonus for me.

I understand, but the .494Dakota has the same cap. as the .404jeffery, so no help there. Your .416Tayalor loads are moving faster than my .404jeffery loads, although w/ a bit less powder, & recoil should be roughly the same. Really, if he can shoot the Taylor any other .42caliber should be the same in comperable rifles.
If he likes your Taylor, swap him for his .404jeffery. That may get you into trouble w/ your wife though.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Adam, you wood hound, I would do another 416 Taylor but it seems a little wiser to try something with similar case capicity with bonified factory cases that are properly head stamped.

FredJ338, his Jeffery weighs 10.5 lbs with two mercury recoil reducers in it. I just think it hits him pretty hard. He like I, are not getting any younger.

I think making this new rifle up in something that approaches the 416 Taylor in case volume, might be a good thing. I was looking for some options and this looked like a possibility. The AR lineup of cases looked good, however, being able to order and receive new cases properly stamped is a real bonus for me.

I thought Quality Cartridge was making proper .416 Taylor cases, but I haven't checked their web site to verify.

I just checked Midway since I couldn't find the Quality site and Midway carries it.

I do have 200 rounds of proper head stamped brass but making two rifles cuts the amount in half. We can use resized 458 or 338 brass for practice. All of my Taylor brass is crap brass with little consistancy. I think I had to go through about 110 rounds of the last batch to get 50 that were reasonably close.

fredj338, I thought the 404 dakota was on the shorter 375 dakota case length therefore was about the same case capacity as the 416 Taylor. I have a 404 D and if I get home from call this weekend, I will be sure to measure and compare to the Taylor. I really thought that the Dakota had a much higher operating pressure to get the speed up, not the same case capacity as the original 404 Jeffery.

My wife is really a great partner. She rarely complains of my insanity with guns. There have been a few that I made with her in mind and I am sure she would give up other things in the house before getting rid of any of her favorite guns. One of those is that 416 Taylor. That and selling the 9.3x62 and 300 H&H would get me sacked pretty quickly.

Yes & no, the .404D is shorter than the .404jeffery & does operate & higher pressure, about like the .416Taylor. The Taylor as you know is off the .458wm case so volumn will be less than the .404D. This would allow you to use a std length action & run 400gr bullets the same speed as the Taylor w/ a bit less pressure. Still, a 400gr bullet @ 2300fps is going to recoil pretty much the same from sim. rifles. The Taylor would offer up a bit less recoil as you are using a bit less powder but recoil is still there.
I know recoil pads have a lot to do with felt recoil. When I had to sight in my .404j I had the hard rubber Win.M70 pad on it & it kicked me silly. When it was finished, I had a 1" Dec. pad & it made all the diff. I don't even bother w/ the removable muzzle brake, maybe later when I can't stand the recoil anymore. Really though, if you are handloading, a .416rem could be made to shoot like the Taylor. I load my .404j to 2200fps because it killls fine & recoil is managable enough I can shoot off the bench.

Leonard,
OK, but what about using your Taylors stock for the pattern. Though the taylor is known for softer recoil the stock design on your rifle may be helping....apparently it is not hurting.
and how about Superior Ammo?
And if i remember someone is making brass for the Taylor.

By the way, i am in the middle of a build. A .375 H&H that weighs a hair over 7 pounds loaded and scoped! Shes mean but is shooting everythng under an inch and a quarter. Shooting 270 gr Hornady's just over a half inch!
I could use a stock pattern that helped with recoil.
ouch my cheek is hurting.

Adam, Your cheek is hurting HA! David and I took the beast to the range last weekend and shot 15 rounds of 500 Jeffery ammo. He shot about half of his off hand or from the bench. He is tough. I shot my rounds using the lead sled. If you let the forend get away from you one time you would remember that for the next time as it would swat the snot out of you. There are folks making Taylor brass but it does not seem to be very uniform. I sorted through over 100 rounds to find 50 that were close enough to be relevant. I feel that the Dakota brass would be more consistant.

fredj338, I think I might try to load one of my 416 Rem. Mag rifles with the same load I use in the Taylor and see how it does. I think it will change the pressure spike a lot, lower pressure and the only thing that worries me is the fact that it might amount to a reduced load and I worry about non proven reduced loads in any weapon. According to Dakota the 404 D holds 96.8 gr. h20. Taylor case capacity is 93.6 gr. h20 according to Accuload. I think that the two are about dead even on case capacity and If I load the same kind of bullet in the 404D as the 416T there should be hardly any difference. I may try to get someone to panagraph my Taylors stock to give me a real close approximation. I have some Blackburn bottom metal made specially for the 375 Dakota round that I can mate to one of my Orberndorf actions and IF I can find someone with the ability to make the 404D a reality I think the thing would be real sweet!

Have you thought about the 10.75x68mm. Might be just wwhat the Dr. ordered. According to Donnelly it has just over 95 grain water capacity.

I already own a 10.75x68 Hoffman rifle. It is an original Orberndorf barrelled action that was stocked by Hoffman. They recontoured the barrel and added the BB front sight , BBsling swivel, and an island rear sight. Very sexy rifle. It shoots well. It has not been drilled or tapped for a scope and that means it is good to 100 yards for me. I have loaded the 380gr Northfork Cup point solid to about 2200 f/s and no pressure signs and tremendous accuracy at 50 yards. It is a dream rifle that I just have to decide to desecrate with a scope!!!

Am I missing something here? If a bullet at 400 grs leaves the muzzle at 2300 f/s, the stamp on the brass will not influence the recoil.If anything, the .416 would have more recoil, due to its smaller diameter than the .423.

Get a proper stock on the G&H, and, like others have mentioned, use the stock on the Taylor for the pattern.

Bent,
The taylor uses less powder than the other popular 416's. I suppose it is a more effecient cartridge and that is the reason why it is able to shoot such acceptable velocities.

Less powder=less recoil.

Additionally the Taylor is known for being a light kicking bigbore by those that own and hunt with them.

You may want to wait on the .404 Dakota as they have just filed Chap 11 bankruptcy.

Aint that a bitch. I may try to pick up some brass 200-300 pieces before it goes. Fortunately the 404 Dakota was not its most popular round.

jamison makes their brass, not dakota...

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
jamison makes their brass, not dakota...

jeffe

Jamison made a big batch of .404 Dakota brass when it first came out. I think that is the only brass that he made for Dakota. Dakota has sourced brass from BELL, Norma, Lapua, whichever way the wind was blowing at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
Bent,
The taylor uses less powder than the other popular 416's. I suppose it is a more effecient cartridge and that is the reason why it is able to shoot such acceptable velocities.

Less powder=less recoil.

Additionally the Taylor is known for being a light kicking bigbore by those that own and hunt with them.

Well, I am afraid it takes more to convince me. I have made a couple of Taylors, shot a few more, and my experience is that loaded hot enough in a light enough rifle, it kicks like a mule. One can read many places here how speed is a more important factor for recoil than bullet weight. Add rifle-weight and stock-design, and the factors of recoil are rounded up.
To deliver 2400f/s, the Taylor operates with a higher preassure than the Remington or Rigby, and this makes lesser recoil?

RIP? Jeffe? Comments?

Bent,
the recoil "pressure vs volume" question is a trade off. For example, when compared to a 416 rigby, the taylor uses FAR less weight in powder. say we go 2300fps - 106gr vs 69gr (nearly 40 gr MORE "stuff" recoiling)

here's the quickloads for 10#, 410 woodliegh, at 2300 (just to keep pressures sane)
rigby 68.67 lb-ft, 22.15 FPS
taylor 53.86, 19.62 FPS

and, just for giggles (at 2300)
416 AR (70.2gr) 54.38 lb-ft, 19.71FPS


and, to answer the question, at 2500
ar - 88.5gr, 69.14lb-ft, 22.22 fps
rigby - 114gr, 80.61lb-ft, 24fps

I could probably do an regression to find where pressure makes the same as more powder in recoil, but in this case (no pun intended) it's not required

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
(nearly 40 gr MORE "stuff" recoiling)

jeffe

Thanks, Jeffe!
You sure do have a lot more experience - and pondering time - with this stuff than I do.

Still, this sounds strange in my ears, please forgive me for needing further expalining.
If what you say is gospel, it goes like this:
Two rifles, equal weight and buildt.
One in .416 Taylor, one in .416Rigby.
Because of the amount of powder, the Rigby weights 40 grs more than the Taylor. Heck, lets make that 60 grs, because of the heavier brass of the Rigby.
So when fired, the Taylor will have 60 grs less weight to moove during the recoil, and will therefore have less felt recoil. Huh?
Number one, the powder burns, number two, do we not normally add weight to reduce recoil, number tree - we are still talking 60 grains grains, are we not?

Why are my eyes closed?

Bent,
think 40 grain heavier BULLET.. so the recoil of a 250 vs 300gr .375

that is to say, that "extra" 40 grains has to go out the bore, somehow. it also has inertia, like the bullet, and has to move forward, which causes the rifle to move back.

the case weight doesn't really change anything, practically, but if taken to extreme, a 2# case would reduce recoil.

jeffe you are certainly correct, but in the case of the Taylor vs a down loaded .404j or .416rem, we are talking maybe 5gr diff. in powder weight. That just isn't going to push recoil numbers up enough to warrent a notice. I can get 2350fps w/ 77-78g of RL15. That comes out to a bit more than 1# add'l. recoil. In same rifles, no one would notice.
lb404, I would get the .416rem or .404jeffery & load it where you want it. You could even load your Taylor loads in the .416rem & lose maybe 75fps, guessing of course. Brass can be made from plentifull .375. Norma is making affordable brass for the .404j.

I'm getting it!
So - picture:

Two equal rifles, one with a 440 grs bullet at 2300 f/s with x grs of powder, the other with a 400 grs bullet at 2300 f/s with x+40grs of powder.

Same recoil?

Bent,
exactly!

Fred,
respectfully, this isn't true, if you keep a >85% full case. It's the question of cubic inches. Since the rigby is so much larger than the taylor, to have the same velocity AND case capacity (hang fires in bigbores SUCK) the riby's cubic inches simply don't allow you to run it down to 70gr and have a reasonable capacity. I don't use fillers if i can possibly help it.

An additional 40 grs of powder gives a double whammy. Not only do you get the increased ejecta mass, as Jeff mentioned, you also have an increased rocket affect. The more rocket fuel, the more thrust from the rocket. That is the point of a recoil reducer; to redirect the rocket affect.

Mike

jeff, notice I didn't include the big Rigby. It is best run at 2400fps or more. The diff. between the .416rem. & Taylor just isn't that much.

I do must say I feel a bit ashamed.
I have of course read abouth the rocket effect, but never thoght it over , how much effect it really has on the recoil.
May be it was becuse the one rifle in my carrier that had "Pain" written all over it , was a 8 lb .416 Taylor.
Heck knows.
I stand corrected.
Thanks, Jeffe!

But as Fred points out, and your own calulations show, the difference in the Taylor, Rem and AR is not very big, it is hardly notable until one reaches big'uns like the Rigby.

Bent,
I am presently building a lightweight 416 Taylor. I am hoping for 8-8 1/2 lbs. I had a custom contour barrel turned from Pac-nor to help meet the goal weight.

Do you recall anything more about that 8 pound taylor?
Was that weight scoped?
Was it your gun?

Adam, I have a Taylor in a laminated stock that weighs in at less than 8 lbs until you add a scope. I use a Swarovski 1.5x6 30mm scope and the whole package is about 9.5 lbs loaded. If you want I can send it to you to try. I had a lighter scope on it for years, a 1.5x6 Leupold 30mm scope but I like the Swarovski better. I loved the blanks. I just received my custom 9.3x62 amd you should see how nice it is. English walnut not turkish, However, wonderful work. Similar to the picture of the 602 you sent me.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
Bent,
I am presently building a lightweight 416 Taylor. I am hoping for 8-8 1/2 lbs. I had a custom contour barrel turned from Pac-nor to help meet the goal weight.

Do you recall anything more about that 8 pound taylor?
Was that weight scoped?
Was it your gun?

Al,
It was a customers gun, and it was 7 lb without the scope. It was a bit short, I am 6"2', and the scope and I were not on friendly terms. With max loads it was just brutal. With the open sights it did not hurt as much as it ratteled my brain, and fast follow-ups were impossible. we had to load it down to 2200 to be able to group under 5" at 100 meters.