quote:

Topics AP
Former SD company indicted for ammunition exports
By AP | March 22, 2012
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STURGIS, S.D. (AP) — A former South Dakota company and an employee are accused in federal court of exporting ammunition components without State Department permission.
Marc Jamison moved Jamison International from California to Sturgis in 2001. It went out of business last October. Jamison was indicted Tuesday on eight federal counts of unlawful exportation of arms and ammunition. Financial officer Kathy Greenhaw faces the same charges.
Authorities allege that Jamison and Greenhaw illegally exported items to New Zealand and Canada last summer. Neither has filed a response to the indictment.

Bummer

quote:

The federal charges accuse Jamison and Greenhaw of exporting the following items: .375 CheyTac, .416 Rigby, .303 Savage, .470 Nitro Express, .505 Gibbs and .577-.450 Martini Henry ammunition components; .305 Savage Tac Pins; .40-.82 Winchester brass cartridges; and shell casings.

Read more: http://rapidcityjournal.com/ne...4.html#ixzz1pzN1xAD1

George

How could it be in the national interest for Jamison NOT to export those items to Canada and New Zealand? That's crazy stuff.

yes, especially with the above listed cartridges being high on the terrorists lists for ammunition.

only in billary/obama land...

As a Canadian it is easier for me to import firearms,etc. from Europe than from the U.S. due to the ever increasing export controls put in place by the U.S. government. As a result more of my money is now going east across the atlantic, and less is going south to our friends and neighbors in the U.S.

If I want a .50 BMG rifle I can easily buy a Steyr, but not a Barrett. If I want a 3-position side swing safety for my mauser I can order it directly from Voere, but not from Timney. If I want used Swarovski scope I can buy one on e-gun.de or vdb-waffen with less hassle that if I bought it on gunbroker. Even the extra cost of shipping from Europe is less than the extra cost of export permits from the U.S.

If there is something that I can not find in Canada, I now look in Europe first, even though I would prefer to buy from our neighbours to the south.

It has gotten to the point where I can quite easily navigate firearms dealers sites even if they are entirely in German.

Crap- Not another 'ASQ get screwed by gov' deal.Ed

You can indict a "ham Samwich" in the good ol USA legal system. Making it stick though is far more difficult. The import/export issues are so confusing I won't even bother to get involved these days.-Rob

The Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) Bureau of Political-Military Affairs of the U.S. State Department, in accordance with 22 U.S.C. 2778-2780 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (22 CFR Parts 120-130) controls the export of sporting ammunition and components, all of which are classified as "defense articles" under ITAR.

A license from the DDTC is necessary for any US company or citizen to export such items.

Many, many U.S. companies besides Jamison have fallen afoul of these regulations.

I do hope that Jamison and Greenhaw can get these criminal felony charges reduced to civil violations, where the penalties are monetary fines, and where no criminal record results.

Sad.
Senseless.
Marc and Kathy are great people.
I met them and toured the plant in Rapid City, SD. Very friendly and helpful.
Maybe my .505 Gibbs and .408 Chey Tac brass from Jamison are a collector items now?
How could they have been in business that long and just now got bitten by something as silly as this?

its funny to me being your major contractors still sell equipment or training to a sizable portion of lunatic governments on the African continent and the middle east. Not that I am against that myself as it keeps business going and you guys on top.I'll take US policies good or bad over a 3rd world alternative any day. However it seems strange to pursue small scale joes selling inert commodities to a couple of stable 1st world allies. More like general anti-gun controls than any sort of national interest or terrorism control...

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
its funny to me being your major contractors still sell equipment or training to a sizable portion of lunatic governments on the African continent and the middle east. Not that I am against that myself as it keeps business going and you guys on top.I'll take US policies good or bad over a 3rd world alternative any day. However it seems strange to pursue small scale joes selling inert commodities to a couple of stable 1st world allies. More like general anti-gun controls than any sort of national interest or terrorism control...

Thats exactly the motive of this current administration

These laws were not enacted under or at the direction of the current administration.

And RIP, I find your posting of that image repulsive and indefensible.

These laws are inarguably overbroad, IMHO, but they are the law. And let's not forget, that all one needs to do is obtain a license.

And licenses are not difficult to obtain.

I feel for these folks from Jamison. I am virtually certain that they did not intend to break the law. But anyone in the firearms or ammunition business needs to know and understand the law.

In the USA, as in nearly every nation on earth, ignorance of the law is no excuse, nor should it be.

Let's hope that these folks get good legal counsel, albeit after the fact, and are able to extricate themselves with civil, rather than criminal, penalties.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
And RIP, I find your posting of that image repulsive and indefensible.

+1

As a physician taking chemotherapy and rehabbing as much as possible to get back to work/stave off the Reaper, I find my brother RIP's picture sadly spot-on. It is, however, demeaning to witch doctors, many of whom are honest and hard working.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Sad.
Senseless.
Marc and Kathy are great people.
I met them and toured the plant in Rapid City, SD. Very friendly and helpful.
Maybe my .505 Gibbs and .408 Chey Tac brass from Jamison are a collector items now?
How could they have been in business that long and just now got bitten by something as silly as this?

Dear RIP:

Sadly, your cartoon just about sums up the Obama administration for the last 3+ years.

My wife works in an oral surgery office, and is appalled by what is coming down the pike with Obamacare. Her office has already frozen their Medicaid patient base, and will not be adding any more in the future.

The shit is about to hit the fan boys and girls. All that bad commercial and residential mortgage paper is still on the bankers' books.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Ladies and Gentlemen:

This Jamieson International thing has me perplexed. I spoke with the in house counsel about four years ago at Jamieson about the direction of the company among other matters, including producing 256 Newton brass.

The lawyer was an industry player. He would have known that an export license was required.

This is odd, and has that Eric Holder smell to it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Bro' lawndart,
Hang in there and get well.
I am glad I had my cancer detected early, and cured, before Obamacare arrived.
It was fast and furious legislation 2 years ago, but still has 2 years to go to enact.
Now what's next, I say?
The non-medicos have no idea what's coming.
Any medicos agreeing with it are just playing politics.
The picture is just a symbol of disgust for politics embodied by "Obamacare."

"Fast and Furious" guns to Mexico:
Also a corruption by the current administration of enactments by previous administrations, eh?
Another attempt at brainwashing the masses into anti-gun kneejerkers, by Eric Holder,
who is yet to be held accountable,
by the current "Tribal Administration."

Yes, Karl got it right.

Yale,
You too. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These laws were not enacted under or at the direction of the current administration.

And RIP, I find your posting of that image repulsive and indefensible.

These laws are inarguably overbroad, IMHO, but they are the law. And let's not forget, that all one needs to do is obtain a license.

And licenses are not difficult to obtain.

I feel for these folks from Jamison. I am virtually certain that they did not intend to break the law. But anyone in the firearms or ammunition business needs to know and understand the law.

In the USA, as in nearly every nation on earth, ignorance of the law is no excuse, nor should it be.

Let's hope that these folks get good legal counsel, albeit after the fact, and are able to extricate themselves with civil, rather than criminal, penalties.

I have 32 years of Law enforcement experience , with over 20 years of that in a supervisory position. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The current Justice Department has used and ignored the law to promote an anti gun agenda and has been politically active to use the law against their political enemies and ignored the law for those they align their poltical philosophy with. If you don't think Government agencies can enforce or ignore the law in a political way you are naive and ignorant of past History.

Thanks for this:

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:

I have 32 years of Law enforcement experience , with over 20 years of that in a supervisory position. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The current Justice Department has used and ignored the law to promote an anti gun agenda and has been politically active to use the law against their political enemies and ignored the law for those they align their poltical philosophy with. If you don't think Government agencies can enforce or ignore the law in a political way you are naive and ignorant of past History.

For the squeamish who do not find any humor in "Tribal Politics" then try this new signature line of mine:



I am an endowment member, wife is still just a life member, of NRA.
I will be sending them more money for this ad campaign.

Go to:

www.NRAPVF.org/ObamaFactSheet

... for a printable version to hand out to the masses before they get brainwashed by Eric Holder, Obama's tribal minion.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

And RIP, I find your posting of that image repulsive and indefensible.

Ron:

I agree with Michael. Posting that image was really ugly. C'mon man. You are a way better guy than that. If you want to bash the President, please take it to the political forum.

That's an old one Dave, the picture has been around the block a few times and still appropriate.
Just tribal politics as usual, and more coming ...
Sneaky like "Fast and Furious."

www.NRAPVF.org/ObamaFactSheet

Lawndart: Sorry to hear about the chemo; for some reason I missed that, and wish you every success in your healing.
As to the current administration and health care issues, I simply note that my wife and I pay $1,500 per month for basic health insurance, and are greatly blessed that we can afford to do so.
It seems at times that some of the leading dimbulbs, er, lights in the GOP would really prefer to see a lot more Americans uninsured. That way they can justify more tax cuts for the upper class, which in their pathetic, fantasy calculus will help reduce the deficit they pretend to care about.
And no, I'm not a Democrat. I am thoroughly disgusted with both parties.

quote:

And no, I'm not a Democrat. I am thoroughly disgusted with both parties.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
As a physician taking chemotherapy and rehabbing as much as possible to get back to work/stave off the Reaper, I find my brother RIP's picture sadly spot-on. It is, however, demeaning to witch doctors, many of whom are honest and hard working.

lawndart:

PM sent.

Unfortunatley this country has become a country of ambiguous laws that are purposely left grey areas to selectively enforce.

This does not just pertain to gun laws.

I'm not a physcian, just a PH.D. who spent his career giving Oncologists some advanced tools to fight Cancer and am still highly involved! I don't find Ron's picture offensive at all, Period! Oh Yeah! Obamacare is good for America. NOT! Although I agree its demeaning to Witch Doctors. Hope no one here is stupid enough to RE-Up for four more years of Obama and Holder.

Okay, we will probably get punted to the political forum, but before we go, here's my take on Obamacare.

I actually read approximately 125 pages of the bill before it became statute back in 2010. First, I read the beginning 50 pages, and then, not being wet behind the ears, and knowing what I was looking for, I read the last 75 pages.

Guess what was in the last 75 pages: a lot of new bureaucratic agencies with large budgets.

Now, how do you add an entire layer of bureaucracy to 1/6th of the American GDP (healthcare industry), and bend the cost curve downward?

Now that would have been real genius. Sorry, genius and federal bureaucracy don't exist in the same world.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Yale:

I agree with you. The Health Care bill is lousy because there is not enough in it to control costs. When they took out the public option, it collapsed. We should have just went to a single payer system like Canada.

Now, about Jamsion. I was sure sorry to see them go out of business and hope they are able to successfully navigate the legal system.

Let's get back on topic, gentlemen.

Thank you,
George

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These laws were not enacted under or at the direction of the current administration.

And RIP, I find your posting of that image repulsive and indefensible.

These laws are inarguably overbroad, IMHO, but they are the law. And let's not forget, that all one needs to do is obtain a license.

And licenses are not difficult to obtain.

I feel for these folks from Jamison. I am virtually certain that they did not intend to break the law. But anyone in the firearms or ammunition business needs to know and understand the law.

In the USA, as in nearly every nation on earth, ignorance of the law is no excuse, nor should it be.

Let's hope that these folks get good legal counsel, albeit after the fact, and are able to extricate themselves with civil, rather than criminal, penalties.

This IS on topic, because it is referring to the laws and the government which is causing the Jamisons (and the rest of us shooters) so much trouble.

"YEH, Those Jews should have known the law requires them to wear the yellow "Star of David" on their clothing at all times. There is no excuse for not knowing the law, so off to Auschwitz-Birkenau they rightfully go...

Welcome to the modern U.S. version of the police state, and its apologists."

If there was ever a time for jury-nullification of a law, this is it. It would be nice to follow it in November with voter nullification of the government AND its crackpot "fascisti" laws.

George, in deference to your concerns I will ask if anyone knows whether Jamison could sell its manufacturing facilities to someone else who can resume supplying wonderful brass while the government wrassles with the remnants of the original company. Surely there is the demand for it. I guess we can all hope that someone will fill Jamison's shoes sooner rather than later.

Bill,

Unless Jamison Intl. is enjoined from liquidating its assets, I expect that they will do so.

We can only hope the new owners of said assets will be as adept at filling the niche left vacant as Jamison Intl. was. (Let's hope that a certain disreputable player in Sturgis doesn't buy them. ).

George

Makes me glad that I stocked up on Jamison's .470 Nitro brass. It's what I have used and does a fine job. Huntington's has a supply of some of the aforementioned calibers I believe if you're in need. Just ordered another 200 rounds. Shame about them being shut down though.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These laws were not enacted under or at the direction of the current administration.

And RIP, I find your posting of that image repulsive and indefensible.

These laws are inarguably overbroad, IMHO, but they are the law. And let's not forget, that all one needs to do is obtain a license.

And licenses are not difficult to obtain.

I feel for these folks from Jamison. I am virtually certain that they did not intend to break the law. But anyone in the firearms or ammunition business needs to know and understand the law.

In the USA, as in nearly every nation on earth, ignorance of the law is no excuse, nor should it be.

Let's hope that these folks get good legal counsel, albeit after the fact, and are able to extricate themselves with civil, rather than criminal, penalties.

This IS on topic, because it is referring to the laws and the government which is causing the Jamisons (and the rest of us shooters) so much trouble.

"YEH, Those Jews should have known the law requires them to wear the yellow "Star of David" on their clothing at all times. There is no excuse for not knowing the law, so off to Auschwitz-Birkenau they rightfully go...

Welcome to the modern U.S. version of the police state, and its apologists."

If there was ever a time for jury-nullification of a law, this is it. It would be nice to follow it in November with voter nullification of the government AND its crackpot "fascisti" laws.

Albert:

Trying to draw an analogy between the Jamison International situation and the extermination of six million jews is a pretty big leap, don't ya think? The guys at Jamison will get their day in court and we'll see how this turns out.

I would be careful with that jury nullification thing. Sometimes it can come back to bite you in the ass. Remember O.J. Simpson?

We can't seem to find common ground anymore and a lot of the time I think it is because the rhetoric that we use is so over-the-top.

One problem that MAY have caught Jamison is that you cannot sell such items to a person or company in the US without making sure that that person will not export them. You have to make your customers fill out a lot of paperwork and, for a company Jamison's size, it takes a lot of time to do this. You also have to do it each time you sell stuff to the same buyer. It's absurd to control such brass cases anyway but that's the way it is.

I'm only speculating. That may not be Jamison's problem. I suspect there was no intent on their part, however.

I also suspect they may have ceased operations for altogether different reasons first.

Guys, Jamison's shutdown was not related to this issue at all. It had to do with financing and differences between partners.

I hope to hear an announcement in the next 2 months that they are resuming operations. If all goes well, that will happen.

This item will play out independently of the shutdown/restart, and I for one will not speculate on who or why it happened. Leave that for the court, prosecutor, and defendants.

dave

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Let's get back on topic, gentlemen.

Thank you,
George

Pro gun is the topic. Whether it moves through a range of topics its relevant and healthy and the forum can certainly bare an occasional reminder that guns are never seperated entirely from politics.

The reason even the US is losing so much ground in this arena is most of your gun owners are

A.too busy pretending the problem does not occur

B. Too willing to allow controls to freedom including freedom of speech to appease those who require a tidy or safe norm for all.

I'm not into appeasing them or your urge for the same thing thanks George.

The thread should stay in whatever form it takes.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:


We can't seem to find common ground anymore and a lot of the time I think it is because the rhetoric that we use is so over-the-top.

Rhetoric is over the top compared to what? Anti-gun lies, emotive and innaccurate political speeches? These work quite fine for everyone else, the point being these bodies support anyone with the same mission using different ground to do it.

Pro-gun people being so afraid to support one another and shy away from debate is what works against them.

SSdave: I had originally heard that it was some sort of big family blow-up that caused the shutdown.

So does this mean that any hunter that leaves behind unused ammo with his PH while out of country on a hunt is technically violating export laws?