I am getting tooled up to reload for the 450 watts. I can not find reloading info anywhere. I was going to start with a 458 Lott load. Planning on using 500 grain bullets. Dose the Watt have any real velocity advantages over the Lott? Thanks for the help

Simple awsener no it does not

lott is 2.80
watts is 2.85

.05 is not that big of a difference

yes, it does have the potential/ability to go faster .. longer throat if you want to go that route

you can use hornady magnum basic
start with lott MINIMUM data and work up

I guess it is nice to not have anything yet. For the Watts. Won't have to try and make some powder/bullet combination I have laying around work. Will look at all the Lott info that has been posted over the last few weeks and see what I can come up with. Then try to find smoken deals on components

As always, use reloading data from the 'net at your own risk.

See Steve's pages- .458

George

Depending on what data base you use the 450 Watt is ~4 gr H20 larger in case capacity so for all intents and purposes they are "almost" identical...BUT...the only way to know for a fact is to H2O weigh the cases YOU use in THAT rifle which will give you the case capacity, which is only a starting point.

A 45 cal bullet should displace about ~2.6gr H2O/0.100" of lengh which translates to ~1.3 gr H20 difference between the Lott and the Watts...the data says about 4 gr difference so something is not quite right...the data base or my math...I think you can put it down to the actual case internal dimensions.

The only way to know for sure what you got it to work up the loads and chrono them.

Start with a midrange Lott load and work up slowly. You should be able to hit 2400 plus with a 500 gr bullet easy enough.

The 450 Watts, 450 Ackly Magnum and 450 Mashburn are peas in a pod and the Lott can be fired in those chambers but not vis versa so your are lucky...you have a dual purpose shooter.

Do an online search, there is data available for all 4.

A long throat will pretty much always give you additional velocity because you need more powder to equate the pressure differential...RE Mr. Weatherby.

In reality what you will end up with depends on a lot of factors.

You have a good'un...enjoy it.

Luck

Thanks for the replys. I am shooting for the 2400FPS with the 500 Grainers. Should be a fun project. In reality not having a ton of load data is more work but a lot more interesting and I am sure I may actually learn something

anonymousbob,

quote:

I am shooting for the 2400FPS with the 500 Grainers

Good luck with that goal, IF you also want to keep peak pressure below 65 ksi.

That MV goal coupled with reasonable maximum pressure, is why they created the 450 Rigby.

There is little to no difference between the Lott and the Watts, at least none worth mentioning. So I would just stick with the published Lott reloading data and be done with it JMHO.

Please share the results of your load development.

2400 with 500gr in a watts? of normal length barrel and 3.65 oal? not going to happen

2300 with a tiny bit less pressure than a lott, due to throat? yeah

2400? an ackley can, my 458 AR can, but those aren't loads you want to say aren't max - i'll tell you flat out, 2400 with a 500gr bullet is a max load for anything with a .532 casehead and belt ...

try for 2300 with the watts .. you can achieve that ad live another day to shoot it, in all likelyhood

Jeffeosso,

I would think that 2400 fps would even be a stretch for the Ackley, at least with a peak pressure falling below 70 ksi. The 0.532 case head belted mag .458 bore is best served by the 450gr A-Frame in my opinion.

Just to add a REALITY CHECK, I actually OWN a .450 Ackley and I can readily see 2400fps with a 500gr bullet. I always use 26 inch barrels. the load is max, defined by 6 reloads of a case without the primer pocket expanding.Never did any pressure measurements on it. no Scott I won't tell you what the load is either. -Rob

A mate of mine had a 450 Ackley, a rechamberd 458 BRNO. Not sure of barrel, maybe 25"

With the powder you blokes call Varget, but an earlier version it hit 2440 with 500 Grain Hornady and slightly sticky bolt lift and polished across case head. So about 2400 for top useable.

Nothing surprising there as a 460 tops out at 2600 and in my experience the 300 Wby and 378 case are about 200 f/s different in each of the calibres

To me, the beauty of the .450 Watts was that it would do what the .458 Winchester Magnum was supposed to do, with no drama and less pressure. 2150 fps. with a 500 grain bullet in a 22 inch barrel was what I was looking for and what I got.

If you want a cartridge which will shoot all the way through a broadside buffalo and wound what's on the other side, then play the velocity game. 500 grains at 2150 was good enough for the .450 3 1/4, the .450 No. 2, the 500/450, the .470 NE, and the .475 No. 2, and it's good enough for me. Pleasant to shoot, also.

WOW Robgunbuilder, for that wonderful support of my post with your reality check! This is just like to the good ol' days. I would post an accurate post and you would come along later and back it up 110%.

scotty poo- Are you really so stupid as to think I was agreeing with you? Since I and everyone else KNOW you don't know what your taking about I inserted a factoid from my real world experience. Now your dismissed!-Rob

Robgunbuilder,

quote:

scotty poo- Are you really so stupid as to think I was agreeing with you? Since I and everyone else KNOW you don't know what your taking about I inserted a factoid from my real world experience.

I was just REAL LUCKY once again then with my "guess"?

This stuff funny!

Back to hair splitting...what's 100fs??? A slightly tighter barrel...a "faster, smoother" barrel...a coated bullet...a little more pressure...a different chrono...a different cartridge case...a slightly longer barrel...longer seating length with RN bullets, temp, humidity, bullet construction, bullet metal...etc...etc...etc.

Dam...I'm getting 2200fs with 535 gr hard cast lead bullets in my NEF BC 30" bbl, 45-120, weighed case volume of ~115gr H20, at WAY less pressure than you can run in a bolt gun. The 450 Watts or 450 Ackly aren't all THAT much smaller.

I don't know for sure if AnonymousBob can get his 2400/500 gr, that velocity is on the very high end of the pressure range for that size case and needs a powder with specific bulk density and burn rate, but I can crunch the numbers and see a 26" bbl is up to the task if everything falls into place...no one else knows for CERTAIN if he can or not...the jury is out until A-Bob starts load workup...for HIS rifle...the rest is happy horse sh**, little boys waving their dicks and saying "Mine is bigger than yours"...or in this case "you can't get a wooodyyyy...na-na-na-na...naaaa, naaaa".

The combined knowledge of the major players on this thread is awesome and for the most part should be taken seriously, but the contentiousness that rears it's ugly head totally destroys all resemblence of credibility.

Pointing out the questionability, some examples, some ways to possibly get to his goal, some obstructions and problems in a straighforward manor without rancor or BS would definitely raise the creds.

I was the "bench monkey load tester" for a mentor way, WAY back when he was doing his 450 AI...all I remember is it beat the he** out of me and for which pain I received various bits of "secret" knowledge and pats on the back from a few notable's in "the group". Mention the 450 AI today and I feel that pain, although a similar or larger size case or caliber with equal or heavier bullets, today, only whet's my appetite for more...go figure.

FWIW, Bob, listen to the naysayers as they do have something to say, but only use the information as a basis for forming your own conclusions dependent on what your load testing shows...and blow off the rest. You may get to your goal, you may not...it's what you meet on the road that is important, not the end in itself.

Luck

FOOBAR,

quote:

Dam...I'm getting 2200fs with 535 gr hard cast lead bullets in my NEF BC 30" bbl, 45-120, weighed case volume of ~115gr H20, at WAY less pressure than you can run in a bolt gun. The 450 Watts or 450 Ackly aren't all THAT much smaller.

How do you know what the pressure is, have you physically measured? Most of the "pressure" signs do not manifest themselves until you are WELL above SAAMI max pressure.

For another reality check, the ASquare manual shows the 450 Ackley maxing out at about 2400 fps with a 465gr bullet from a 26" barrel at or slightly above MAX pressure. They show the Lott going only about 20 fps slower with the same bullet and barrel length. This is right in line with the case volume differential between the two cartridges. The Watts being roughly between the Ackley and Lott in capacity isn't really going to be any quicker than the Lott, because the Ackley isn't either.

Based off of case volumes the 450 Ackley should be able to get 20 to 25 fps more than the Lott. The Watts should be able to beat the Lott by 10 to 15 fps. All this assumes one can find the "golden BB" burn rate powder.

My only reason for posting is to stress safety and not get "crazy" about achieving some specific muzzle velocity. The fact is that 458 Lott data will work fine in the Watts, will almost certainly be within 15 fps of the maximum muzzle velocity achievable for that particular powder selection, and finally the vast majority of 0.458 500gr hunting bullets work best at a muzzle velocity between 2100 and 2350 fps.

Good luck.

Alright maybe 2400 is just a pipe dream. It would be neat to hit that velocity safely. Once I have some time I will take the little hand reloader to the range with two or three different bullets and powders and I will sit all day working up load data (if I can handle it) I am guessing 100 plus rounds of 500 grainers will wear on me a little. Hopefully I will find my medium of power, accuracy, and most importantly shootability.

.450 WATTS from Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol. II;

300 gr Bullet 85 grs. 4198 2950 fps
90 grs 4198 3030
400 gr Bullet 85 grs 3031 2500 est
85 grs 4198 2670
500 gr Bullet 90 grs 3031 2470
90 grs 4320 2350
98 grs 4320 2500
600 gr Bullet 80 grs 3031 2180
85 grs 4320 2190
90 grs 4320 2260

This is copied from his book and starting reduced is really a good idea in this case. He states that is "slightly less powerful than the .450 Ackley Magnum and similar .450's it certainly should be sufficient."

I don't know the pressure exactly and for certain, as anyone who has crawled into this mudpit knows is highly improbable...the only way to know the actual pressure is by doing piezo or CUP testing...you know this and so do most of the other knowledgeable reloaders...how many of us have that equipment and we all know the limitations of that type of testing.

In the case of the NEF BC, and ONLY my NEF BC...the break action receiver is rated for a certain pressure range. I use Load from a Disk, Powley's online computer and other Powley programs I have going back to the old cardboard "slipstick"...which are only "predictive" software, primer flattening indications(I know, lets not get into that endless argument as it is only "predictive" also)the fact that getting into too high a pressure will cause the action to pop open or the cases to lock the action closed, two chronographs and a 4 foot stack of reloading material going back 50 odd years...plus my small amount of "expertice" in wildcatting.

Most of the answers given on forums are short, expect a bit of "expertise and extended knowledge" on the part of the asking poster so cannot ever delve into the full implications or ramifiations....and I'm not here to prove or disprove anything...only to give back what little experience I have, developed over all that time in an effort to provide a safe way for beginning reloaders to get their feet wet...hopefully written in a way that will illustrate AND open new avenues of questions.

I start low and work up slow...load to a beginning approximate pressure level and velocity with an intent on increasing accuracyd and velocity and let the rifle and fired brass tell me if it's OK.

As already been stated several times, there is a predetermined level of expectation and real world actuality...it is the reloaders responsibility to combine those and come up with what HIS/HERS rifle will produce safely.

The NEF BC will produce velocities much higher than what I run...I could get to 2400fs easy enough...with several powders...but I have no need for that in the NEF, the same bullet will penetrate end to end in a bison at 1500 fs so why push it any farther. I won't post ANY load data that doesn't come out of a present day reloading manual or "predictive" software program, but I will post WHERE the loads can be found...reloading information is mis-used, mis-read, mis-interpreted or just plain bogus for me to get into that bucket of worms.

In this day and age with the 'Net, software, forums etc, most of the "old secret knowledge" is scattered from he** to breakfast...it's all there for those who bother to mine.

A-Bob...You might try RL-17...Allient finally got to my email request for 9.3x62 and 375H&H data...they said the burning rate is similar to IMR4350 so you could start toward the bottom of IMR4350 data and work up.

In a 375H&H case RL-17 gives a slightly lower bulk density compared to H4350...it packs tighter...I got 86 gr RL-17 in the same volume that 80 gr of H4350 took up. THIS IS NOT LOADING DATA ONLY A BULK DENSITY COMPARISON!!!!!

Straight walled cartridges behave a little differently than bottlenecked cases so you may run into that conumdrum, RL-17 maybe too slow in the 450 Watts case, I haven't come across a whole lot of reloading data for any powder much slower than RL-15 for the 458 WM/Lott, but I'm sure there is some out there...maybe this will stir the pot enough to get some.

I haven't started load developement yet in my larger caliber, straight walled cases with RL-17 so I can't help you much there...maybe a good tight neck grip coupled with a solid taper crimp might get you over the hump...or not...you just have to work it out.

From what I'm reading online about RL-17 it is giving higher velocity readings in many cases and calibers. It's doing very well in my 7mmRM with 150 gr Noslers...higher velo than my previous favorite H4350 load and equal accuracy...basically 3 round one holers. I'm totally impressed. Just waiting for 9.3 and .375 cal bullets to arrive.

Got the 9.3 muzzle brake installed yesterday and what a difference it made...it always surprizes me just what a $30 piece of "HOLY" steel makes.

Luck

I have found some of Ackley's data to be a bit on the "enthusiastic" side. The man was certainly not afraid of pressure.

A-Bob, Cal Pappas wrote a book on James Watts and his website says it is back in print for $25. I'd assume it would have load data, but would email Cal to verify.

O-Bob

Cal

If you don't have a oehler 43 the best indicator of pressures is belt expansion on the first firing followed by primer pocket looseness. If you can reload any belted magnum 6 times with the primer pocket remaining tight your pressures are safe. You typically only get 8-9 reloading in the best of cases before you see signs of incipient head separations in most belted magnums. don't trust bolt lift etc as that can be deceiving. -Rob

Not to deter from Robgunbuilder's post but, Rob

quote:

If you can reload any belted magnum 6 times with the primer pocket remaining tight your pressures are safe. You typically only get 8-9 reloading in the best of cases before you see signs of incipient head separations in most belted magnums.

This is BS! It takes considerably more than SAAMI/CIP maximum average pressure to expand the case head of a belted magnum (0.532" outside diameter) case! Also, I have literally hundreds of belted magnum cases which have been reloaded many more than 8-9 times and there is NO indications of head separation!

Head separation in a belted magnum case is typically the result of a head spacing error. The head spacing error is typically not the rifle's fault either. Measure the belt location on the brass and you will learn that it can vary by better than 0.008". Firing cases like that will lead to head separations fairly quickly, and do it with chamber pressures well within spec (say mid 50 ksi). If the case has a shoulder you are far better off using that for head spacing than the belt.

Again best and SAFEST bet is to simply use MODERN (21st century) load data for the 458 Lott in the 450 Watts. Find and accurate load at around 2250 to 2300 fps with those 500 gr pills using a powder in the burn rate of IMR4064 to Rel 15 and be happy.

Scotty poo- your just too stupid for words. Stop Googling and get some real experience. Guess what happens to Brass after extended firing and reloading! Do you understand what trimming is? Where do you think that brass comes from you stupid Assclown? Don't tell me about headspace I know what it is Assclown! How about you post some pics of your cases after 10 reloading for all of us to see? Do you see that
little line above the belt. Do you know what itis? Stick a wire in the case and check around that's the signs of a head separation. Guess what that can happen without the belt
expanding! Do you own a .450 magnum Scotty Poo, if not how about you STFU because you don't know what your talking about do you? Your just giving yourself away again Scotty! Tell
your shrink or parole officer you think need your lithium dose upped again. I really feel sorry for you Scotty, it must really be pathetic to be you! -Rob

Rob,

I think you are the one who needs a lithium dosage increase. Is it time for me to apologize to you again? I do own or have owned several 0.458 caliber "magunms" from the wimpy Winchester to the "mighty" Weatherby. Have a nice weekend Robert.

Scotty Poo- in previous posts of yours you admitted owning a . 458 win mag which as I remember you said you blew up with an overload. Just another make believe gun you only Googled up huh Scott? Please post pics of your other .458's. Including your .450 Ackley or simply STFU about it's performance. BTW don't try stealing a few pics off the web and claiming they are yours. We are on to that trick.
I'm having a Great weekend too! thanks!-Rob

Rob,

quote:

BTW don't try stealing a few pics off the web and claiming they are yours. We are on to that trick.

Show your proof of that!

Unlike you I don't own 2000+ rifles at all times chambered in every single commercial and wildcat big bore cartridge and action combination. So regrettably I will have to decline posting pictures. Besides it matters little as you CANNOT accept the truth and will accuse me of posting pictures "stolen" from the web.

So please post your evidence of my "evil".

BTW, are you sure it isn't time for me to apologize? You can have one of your buddies PM as usual. I have no problem with that, do you?


I do apologize to A-Bob for this departure from the theme of his thread.

Scott-Dont waste my bandwidth apologizing. Spend some time learning the difference between the truth and lies. Your really not as smart as you think you are. Think about it for just a second. Do you really think your attempts to bullshit us really makes you look smart? It doesn't. The games you try and play are just plain dumb frankly. I've played mind games with the best that exist, your a joke in comparison.
Ive given you some good advise though I doubt you will listen. try the honesty diet for a change and maybe you'll find people will treat you differently. Just remember in your case the BS detector is on max sensitivity. Youcould start by telling us what guns you really own and show some pics.we will proceed from there. -Rob

Rob,

I guess it is simply time for me to discontinue posting here at AR as you will never stop calling me a liar no matter what I do. So having said that I will go. You win Robert, enjoy.

Maybe some day I will make it to a hoot and shoot and you all can see just how big an a-hole I really am. May tie me up on the 25 yard line and take turns taking pop shots at me that oughta be fun, eh?

Good decision-Just go away!

He'll be back with him its like a soap opera and next on "AS AR TURNS" Scotts says it wasent him was his evil twin dun dun dun.

To get back on topic, my .458 Lott is actually a Watts that is marked .458 Lott or .458 Watts. For me the advantage of the Watts is that you worry less about trimming brass. As to the P.O. Ackley data, I think it is a bit optimistic on velocity. For realistic data, I would stick to .458 Lott data.

Dave

Finally got to the range with the watts and a chrono. I found reloading data that called from 89 to 99 grains of 4320. I started out at 85 grains and worked my way up one grain at a time. First off there is no way in hell that you can get 99 grains in that case. I was barely able to get 96 grains and seat the bullet correctly.

I did not start to chrony until 93 grains. I was more interested it having some fun for the first couple of test shots. After each shot the case was inspected for signs of overpressure.
93 grains. 2308 fps
94 grains. 2343 fps
95 grains .2389 fps no signs of overpressure
96 grains 2443. Scary signs of overpressure.
Don't know what happened at 96 grains but it felt significantly more in the recoil department. I am guessing when you compress a load that much in causes problems.

I will stick in the 93 94 grain loadings.

The gun is a Winchester 70 with 23 inch barrel.

2400 is possible but it is dangerous for the gun and shooter.

I LOVE the 450 Ackley.

My freind Bill Steigers of Bitterroot Bullets, still the best and original bonded core hunting bullet, lent me his pre 64 Win chambered in 450 Ackley for penetration tests. It had a 25 inch barrel and 1-14 twist.

I tried 4320 and 4064 and got 2300-2350 fps. Switched to Bofors 203 and got 2400 fps at 90 grains as I recall. This was an 8 lb keg w a lot number bulk powder purchase Bill had from when he worked at Speer umpteen years ago, but it seemed to be like Norma 203 both in burn rate and looks.

Anyway, it was THE powder for that rifle.

BIG difference between Hornady FMJ w steel jacket and copper SP RN. I dont recall exactly but it was 3-5 grains difference so be careful.

Anyway, after owning a 460 GA and 450 Dakota, I would be very happy w that old pre 64.

One advantage of the Ackley over the Watts or Lott is that if you are a ham fisted reloader like me, its alot easier to get a good straight bullet seat and crimp on a bottle neck ctg than a tapered ctg like the Watts and Lott.

Head spacing on the shoulder is a benefit too.

The Ackley is one of the most underated African ctgs. And one of the easiest to reload for. Dont fret over 50-100 fps.

Andy