Gentlemen,

A friend dropped off a book yesterday and I couldn't put it down, now I'm re-reading. Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions by W. Ellis Brown.

Does anyone know, seen, or used any of these re-builds? Has anyone on AR ever done this?

I am really intrigued by this and already looking for a suitable action in case I can actually do a 450 NE or even a 22rf or Hornet.

Or is it easier to get the Remington double 45/70 and rebarrel it?

Any thoughts

Nope I haven't, but that's a very interesting idea. Keep us posted!

Minkman,
i have that #@$@#%@%@#$!@#$ book, and it's going to cost me about $1000 to get there from "here"

he's a HORRIBLE machinist and welder... his "tig welding" looks like sh!T... my wife giggled at them.

so, i figured if HE could make one, and i can weld and machine better --look at the pic looking DOWN the monoblock.. the two bored holes look like they were gouged out with a cordless drill --- then I think i can do it

he sure finishes them nicely, though

jeffe

Jeffe, That's the problem, everyone thinks they can weld! Give them an oxy'ace torch and a coat hanger and they're fixing plate metal several times a week until they have a new plow made of coat hangers.

I was wondering about the regulation, how many times can he get away with heating the solder?

How far along are you with yours? What shotgun did you choose? What Calibers?

Thanks Jerry

I built a 303 British on a 12ga. SxS several years ago. I regulated it for 100 yds. and no kidding,it will shoot 2 rights and 2 lefts into 3 1/2 inches with open sights. Its heavy, but looks pretty good. I made liners for the barrels instead of making a new set of bbls from scratch. I have wanted that book a while but just never ordered it. Would you recommend it??
Doug

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Minkman,
i have that #@$@#%@%@#$!@#$ book, and it's going to cost me about $1000 to get there from "here"

he's a HORRIBLE machinist and welder... his "tig welding" looks like sh!T... my wife giggled at them.

so, i figured if HE could make one, and i can weld and machine better --look at the pic looking DOWN the monoblock.. the two bored holes look like they were gouged out with a cordless drill --- then I think i can do it

he sure finishes them nicely, though

jeffe

Jefe, I agree with your take on the book, and of the quality of the work! This is a case of seeing what is under the finish! Sort of like dirty underwear under a $1500 suit!

The so-called MONO-BLOCK is not a true mono-block, but a simi-mono block. What I mean by that is it is, a mono, only as it jions the two chamber ends of the barrels! This is a combination of mono-block, and dovetailed
"SHOELUMP". The lumps are dovetailed into the block, and IMO, are done backwards. The dovetail is installed from the chamber end of the barrels, and should be installed from the muzzle end of the block, leaving solid steel between the end of the dovetail, and the standing breech end of the mono-block!

The Tig is ammiture at best, and the bead cuts too deep into the barrel steel, Not GOOD! I'd be afraid of galling the inside of the barrels. A better solution here is to silver braze these parts in!

His regulating fixtures are not well thought out and is is sort of "RIGGING", or make do. Minkman's question about how many times he can get away with melting the solder is a valid one, and the answer is, as many times as he has to the get it regulated, as long as he doesn't over heat the barrels! Each time the barrels are tweeked,the tiny adjustments are made, and the barrel ends are flooded with flux again, and new solder is applied. When the final regulation is achieved, then the barrel set is carded, and polished, for final finishing!

The problem I have with this book is, it will lead many "PLUMBERS" who think they are real rifle smiths to build some very unsafe rifles! Especially when it comes to his method of PROOFING! This could destroy a lot of old savage 911s, and Mississippi shotgun Co. actions, no that they are much to start with!

However, his rifles seem to work, and I haven't heard of any blow-ups from anything he's made,so.................Maybe

The Fat Lady

Read this story for a double built on a shotgun action.

Mac

I was interested in building rifles on shotgun actions some time back. In some of my paperwork I noticed a class at one of the trade schools. The class had finished so I contacted the school to see if it was going to be offered next year. I was told no. So I asked for the instructors name and phone # so I could contact him for information/class notes. I got the answer, we don't have contact information for him. To make a long story short, I contacted another instructor and got Mr Browns name.
He informed me that the reason for all of the secrecy was that the gun built in class blew up on test firing! I don't remember all of the details. It wasn't pretty.
This was before he wrote the book.
I have talked to him several times and it seems that what is in his book is what he has learned from others and by trial and error. It has been a while since I have looked at his book but
I was disappointed by the photography in it for someone whose day job is working for Kodak.
The book is a good read / reference for anyone complementing building a double.

James

quote:

Originally posted by J Bennett:

the gun built in class blew up on test firing!

Good to know.

Would you happen to know what action was used on the gun that blew?

Thanks for the info.

500 grains

This was in the late 90's and I do not remember any of the particulars. What I do remember was his willingness to help in any way he could.
He told me that in his research that most of the old timers and big time smiths would hardly give him the time of day. He said most would take their knowledge to the grave with them because they would not give him or anyone information.
He told me that the reason for the book was to have some of the information in print before it was all lost. This book, research and printing was all on his dime. I applaud him for his efforts.

James

Mac, the section you are refering to is when he rebuilt the set of 16ga barrels. His regular mono blocks are one piece.

Lars,
yep.. he was rehooking a 16...

and, par for the course, he presented "what was on hand" rather than what was right

ellis' book will help me to make my double.. and the hangers and fitting and some of the math was worth the cost of the book....

i still can't decide if i am going to do a 500/416, a 470, or a 577/550

first two, friends have the reamers, last one, no one has one!!

yes, i know, wildcts and doubles dont mix... then again, unless you are slapping together a 4140 monoblock on a belgian greener type, which will have very little value to anyone afterwards ANYWAY

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

His regulating fixtures are not well thought out and is is sort of "RIGGING", or make do.

Mac,
i have some thoughts on the regulating jigs... but think about it... IF (big if) it doesn't change regulation after you take it off, it actually IS a one timer....

jeffe

He lost me when he tig welds on the the barrels, and to make matters worse he welds close to the chambers. Chome moly barrel steels are tempered at about 1200 degrees F. Weld on this stuff, and there goes the heat treatment. These alloys are prone to under bead cracking if not preheated to about 700 degrees F. Someday someone is going to blow a rifle up with this welding stunt.

Dave

4140 CM rifle barrels are NOT Heat Treated.They are thermally stress relieved Not Hardened in any way by any manufacturer. They are free machining period! They can be Tig welded with NO Problems if sufficent metal thickness is present and the welder is reasonably competent. Been there and done that!
-Rob

Rob,
can you imagine trying to chamber a heat treated and hardened 4140 barrel? shesh, 28-31rc is hard enough.. would hate to hit 50+

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

i still can't decide if i am going to do a 500/416, a 470, or a 577/550


i know, wildcts and doubles dont mix... jeffe

jeffe,

500/416 is a wild cat

470NE You will not like it because there are to many others out there

577/550 Build it and they will come! This is the only chamber that you have mentioned that you will be happy with.

Hog Killer

PS: I will help you shoot it in.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
PS: I will help you shoot it in.

Heh.. Keith... Careful what you sign up for!!!

jeffe

Jeffe, I agrre with Hog Killer, the 470 is a pedestrian round.

What are the specs on that 577/550? Is this available elsewhere?

Good Luck

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
Jeffe, I agrre with Hog Killer, the 470 is a pedestrian round.

What are the specs on that 577/550? Is this available elsewhere?

Good Luck

Jerry

jeffe posted this, above.

quote:

577/550 - no one has one!!

As of now there are no specs, yet, for the 577/550. But I think there will be some after jeffe, does some head scrathin'

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Minkman:
Jeffe, I agrre with Hog Killer, the 470 is a pedestrian round.

What are the specs on that 577/550? Is this available elsewhere?

Good Luck

Jerry

Jerry,
it's being designed for a 700 gr at 2125. I'll be tickled with 1900

jeffe

jeffe, make it a switch barrel in all three calibers.

Most modern chrome moly rifle barrels are made from a modified 4140/4150 alloy. Rycut 50 is an example. The modifications allow better machining characteristics in the heat treated condition. Chrome moly rifle barrels run RC 27 to RC 32 on the average. I have tested some as high as RC 36. The bars from which barrels are made are bought from the mill/supplier in the heat treated condition. They are drilled, reamed, rifled and chambered as purchas

Welding? Yeah you can get away with a lot if you are carefull and skillful. The thing that bothers me is the guy with Brown's book, a tig welder and more ambition than common sense and experience. He strikes an arc, touches the tungston while melting off a ball of rod. He has now lost controll of the arc while trying to get a puddle in the parent metal and control the melted ball of rod at the same time. While playing this game, he is putting more heat deeper into the metal, potentialy altering its properties.

My credentials? I machine heat treated chome moly alloys on a weekly basis. I have held aircraft and nuclear welding certificatons with heat treated chome moly endorsements.

Dave

FWIW - I've been following this idea for a couple of years now, and the enthusiasm here has re-kindled the idea.

I placed a call this week to a qualified gunsmith (whose name we all know), and asked for his opinion for DR on SG actions.

Again, for what it's worth, he said the only SG action he would consider taking on the project with was a BSS... he said about 8K in bbl work (obvioulsy if he did it).

I didn't want to take up too much of his time, with the particulars of the action choices... but in summary, he said start with an existing DR action, or a BSS.

Again, just for FWIW.

NG,
a BSS is a great action...
ellis brown builds his on belgium guns..

i like the looks of the euro guns....

we'll see

jeffe

Just because one guy would only use a BSS does not mean anything. Without getting into all of the BS on the other thread, I have not seen it mentioned in the pissing match there, but Geoff Miller, who owns RIgby, says he uses Merkel shotgun actions for his box lock DR's. The old Belgian and German guns can be judged on their individual merits and the good ones will make a safe DR. Or you can get new actions from Crown Press/Custom Parts crownpress@alltell.net . I think Brown's book is a great refernece and starting point. No one, including the author says it is the only way to do something, or even the best way to do it. Don't know why every one wants to bash the guy here.

I say take that Belgian double you posted a picture of and start cutting! SHould be a lot of fun and totally safe if you use your head at each step along the way.

Marc,
you summed it up well...

i'll be making a monoblock, rather than hacking the barrels... that way i have both a 12 and a DGR

jeffe

getting one of the things to shoot straight is bad enough without trying to build one of the things ugh !!! not for the faint hearted

Velodog,

Apparently it's worth 8K!!!

Why not buy a double at that price.

Once I find the right mill & action at the right price & the bills start coming in, then we'll see how committed I am.

By the way, was he using a propane torch for all his soldering? What tip would the AR group use? Rosebud?

One friend offered a 10 gauge damascus Bonehill hammergun. I turned him down due to the ornate checkering & engraving on this beauty. I hope I don't get cutters remorse on everything I find. Although, with a monoblock.

Does an action attached to a damascus barrel set have the strength of a modern action?

Thanks

Jerry

quote:

Does an action attached to a damascus barrel set have the strength of a modern action?

Thanks

Jerry

Yes, 2x the strength, but they have to be chopper lump.

An action without barrels does not a barrel-less action make.

Not all actions are created equl. THis is where folks get into trouble and then the word goes out that it is unsafe to build a double rifle on a shotgun frame.

An action that originally had damscus barrels may or may not be suitable for a DR. Impossible to say with just that info. But to play the odds, just start with one with fluid steel barrels. Plus a 10ga frame would make a mongo DR that would take 2 Sherpas to tote for you.