Gents,

I have a confession to make. I have been in the army for 20 years, and have shot gzillions of 5.56 and 7.62mm in my career. I have also shot lots of shotgun 3 inch for tactical matches etc.....but I have little big bore time. Now if someone ask me for advice on training with military calibers....I would have lots of advice on proper training methodology and objectives. I am at a bit of a loss to methodology and techniques to ensure I train effectively with big bores. Here is the back ground. I am hopefully about the land a great paying job which will allow me to fullfill my dream of hunting in Africa...most I hope for Kudu, Eland and possibly a buff. I am somewhat realistic on cost but at the same time, I am going to make some reasonable preparations. I have a Ruger #1 in 375 Weatherby which I have fired before with little problem but not a great deal nor with any real training direction. I equate it to a shotgun to be honest...a big shove rather than a punch. That being said, it was noticable. The loads are not hot by any means. I want to train up to a Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby. I am hoping that between the two rifles, I will have the right "medicine".

I would be curious to your thoughts on proper training to ensure best utility from the two cartridges and ensure I have a suitable training objective when I hit the range. Having not shot a great deal of big bores, this is relatively new to me and I defer to the experience of those here.

Having observed many soldiers going through training, I believe that bad training techniques develops poor skills which become readily apparent when crunch time comes. I don't want to develop a flinch as I have to master these calibers...

Just being honest and looking forward to your comments. Cheers

Jeff

I,m not a very good shot,, but I have done some very good shots.........Shooting a big bore is like any other rifle caliber.......All the same parts of the shot are there..Sight picture , trigger pull..follow thru... but with a big bore the follow thru is different.... no doubt as you already know..........Ross Seyfreid said that he got so he could shoot his 475 Linebaugh well, by not shooting it alot!!!!!One of the best things about liveing out away from populated areas is you can have a rifle by the door ,,,and when you are bored just open the door and take a shot..........You don,t have to lay down a field of fire ,, just a timely well executed shot ,,.Then go do something else ..... If you live in a more urban setting......use alittle rifle for the volume and the big bore for the puncuation....OR load gallery loads for the large rifle and rarley or intermitently shoot full house ammo.....Make sure your rifle fits YOU....

Gum,

Thanks for the reply. You make some excellent points.....

Cheers

Jeff

Jeff,

I like to shoot mostly 80% type loads in my Lott. That way practice is concentrated on, sights, trigger work, cycling the rifle, reaquiring the target for fast accurate follow up shots, and learning to master the reciol. The more I shoot big bores the less I pay attention to the recoil. Do not go so long in a session the you get to where you are feeling beat up.

Your choice of rounds will do you good service. There are those here who will tell you that #1's are not the "best" choice for DG. It's true, you will have a PH to back you up, but you really need to work on fast, sure reloads with a single shot. As it is not unheard of the client having to bail out the PH. It could be up to you to save his life and yours.

To me a 375 Wby, in a #1 would be fine for PG. For going after DG a 416 Rigby bolt action would add an extra measure of safty for any "sticky situatiions". A CZ 550 is in the same $$ ballpark as a #1.

Keith

Keith,

Great advice, thanks. I agree with your comments for DG. My dilema is that I have shot #1s for a while now, I am comfortable with them and react well under stress, particularly reloads. I am trying to find a reasonable priced bolt in 416....but alas, I am a lefty and the pickings are slim.....it is one of the reasons I have look carefully at the #1....familiarity....

I like the idea of 80% loads. When hunting, I seldom have recollection of recoil or muzzleblast....

Cheers

Jeff

Jeff, the best way I have found to train for heavy recoil, is to work your way up. One step at a time. 416's are a bit heavier recoilling than 375 Wby's. But not a huge step up. If you can handle the recoil of full house loads from your 375 Wby. It should not take you very long to master the recoil of the 416 Rigby.

The full house 458 Lott, Watts, Ackely, and AR, are a bigger step and take longer to master. Most "recoil" is realy in your head: it is a lack of mental conditioning.

I like the .458s, as they hve a wider variety of bullets to choice from. My favorite practice bullet for my 458 Lott is the 405gr Rem, mainly because it is CHEAP. Means more pratice for me. No real equal in .416 for cost.

Keith

Morpheus ,, The avatar is too little to show detail but if you look at mine you will see what I do with my 416.............That to me is the best way......Hunt with them.. Head shots on deer Body shots on bear ....Isn,t there some place where they have wild pigs or boars around where you live???I,ve had 3 # 1,s ....A 45-70 and 2 , 375 H&H ,s One of which became a coke bottle magnum...... It has since been fixed.......I would really like a 458 # 1...

Speaking in your terms and building on what you know. When you train to shoot rapid fire sitting or rapid fire prone at 200meters w/ the M-16 or M-14 you know there are some basic foundations of marksmanship but there is a bit of flexibiltiy in ones position depending on the individual and/or terrain. Some positions/techniques are tighter than others. What you may get by w/ shooting the 5.56 may not work as well shooting the 7.62 as the increase in recoil may break your position. This same principle applies to markmanship with big bores. A hard recoiling rifle will quickly reveal any weakness in your positioning or technique as it is not forgiving. This is the reason for working your way up slowly. It is not to conditions yourself to being beaten up by the rifle but it gradually highlights your weaknesses so that you can modify and adjust your techniques w/out being beaten up badly. With a bit of trigger time you will greatly improve your techniques and ride the recoil of the rifle vs having your position break badly resulting in you getting punched by the rifle. You will also find this will help improve your ability to acquire a harder hold on lesser recoiling cartridges such as the 5.56 and 7.62.

Fall back on your training and apply the same principles of marksmanship. Work yourself up in graduations and make needed adjustments. Trigger time.

Good luck,
GVA

Morpheus32,

Ditto to what was posted above, all good advice. My big bore rifle practice is focused on low volume and high frequency. By low volume I mean to limit your self in the number of shots in any one session. Depending on the cartridge you may want to only fire twenty rounds in one session. For me the 458 Lott is a twenty round practice rifle, others may be able to shoot more. Really big boomers 50 cal and up I limit to ten. The point is that if you allow yourself to become fatigued by the heavy recoil of the rifle you will start to develop bad form. It’s quality not quantity.

By high frequency I mean go to the range as often as you can. This will give you a high volume of shells fired for a particular period of time without killing your self. If you wanted to shoot one hundred rounds in one month you’re far better off to do four sessions at twenty five rounds apiece than two at fifty and develop bad shooting habits.

In my younger days I used to compete in power lifting & strong man competitions. As we got closer to the contest the weights would get extremely heavy. If my training partners and I would over train we would start to use bad technique and risk injury. We wised up and went with a low volume (yet high intensity, just like shooting a 458 Lott is higher in intensity than shooting say a 375 H&H) high frequency regimen. I think this same principle can apply to training with big bore rifles.

And another thing, don’t be afraid to use a recoil pad when shooting of the bench. As I’m sure you well know from your previous training the felt recoil from this position is magnified. There is no need to be macho…….

Best of luck in your shooting…

Matt V……

I think Gary hit the nail on the head. Trigger time is what makes a good big bore shot. Don't think that the big bores are for outside use only. Get some trigger time inside too. Try dry firing when the commercials are on. Follow the wall to ceiling line like on moving targets. (It teaches you to follow a level line.) Cycle the bolt with full strokes. I like dummy rounds for this. Work on an even trigger pull. Lots of training can happen without firring a shot. Best of luck!

first, make sure that the gun fits you, LOP, drop, cheekpiece, eye relief, trigger pull, sights, scope, whatever it takes to make you comfortable.... then handle/fondle/carry it untill it is like a part of you....shoot it at everything, from paper... small game, deer, coyotes,.. use reduced loads, lighter bullets... i shoot 350gr stuff in my #1 458...its comfortable... i feel the same way about my m70's....and don't listen to the nay-sayers about being overgunned.... i shoot at ground squirrels with my 375 h&h....

I am not a seasoned big bore shooter at all, unless once considers the various black powder cartridges big bore. But I found I was pretty comfortable with a Ruger No. 1 in .416 after shooting a lot of cast bullet loads through it -- 365-grain RCBS at about 2,000 fps.

Gents,

Thanks for the great responses. You confirmed a lot of what I was thinking. I concur with quality shooting rather than quantity shooting...which just enhances bad form.

One of the reasons I have chosen a Ruger #1 is my familiarity with it from my 270 hunting rifle.....

Jeff

I too shooted a lot in the military and more training for competition and then as a trainer ,now im shooting a lot with my marlin guide gun 4570 ,my cz602 375hyh,my 458winch,and others we even shooted a lot the 500 jeffery of jefferydenmark while he was hunting with me here and the techniques are a bit different with small calibers you try to use the fewer muscular force and shoot as relaxed as you can ,this is different with the heavies.Theres is a bit of diference in the position of your arms too ,but a shooter of your experience must go to gunsite DON Heath will gice a course there.Juan

Most of your DG shooting with big bore will be at close range (50yds or closer) and off hand or sticks. I'd suggest setting up a target at 25 yds and practicing firing sets of two to three rounds at a pistol target against a timer. (Radio Shack sells an inexpensive timer you can put a couple of seconds on, and then start.)

There is more than enough time, put working against the clock is "stressful." You want to be able to put all the rounds in the black. Do this at the end of every range session you can.

In addition, I like to shoot at rim fire steel silhouettes. I put the 100yd targets up at 75, the 75 at 50 along with the 50 yard targets and shoot 22LR at them. I have a 22LR that is close to the weight and heft of a Mauser that I use for this drill. All shooting is off-hand. I find it takes about 1.5rds per knock down once I get use to it.

When you use sticks or a brace, you will jump to a hit for every shot. That is a real eye opener. Kudude

I have had a 375 H&H for 2 years or so now, fired c 350 rounds thru it and taken it on 5 safaris. I used a 275 for a couple of years before this (and still do). Heres what I learned.

1. Initially the recoil and controlling it were all I could focus on for quite some time, esp as I was bench firing to zero in and also to test loads. Then I realised my groups were better shooting from sitting (one knee up to rest right elbow on)using sticks as I then really focussed on steady sight picture and trigger pull as recoil was minimal

2. Recognise this is likely a relatively (less than 200 yards) short range weapon and what you will shoot with it has a big lethal target area. A kudu is a 9 inch square compared to a Roe 4 inch (which is what I use the 275 for). Be very satisfied initially with a 2 - 21/2 inch group at 100 yards depending on your scope( I use a 1.25 - 4 mag swarovski) - you wont get the 1/2" clover leaf you can with a smaller calibre (Although I am actually now dissapointed with more than 11/2ins) DO MAKE sure you have enough eye relief - get blasted in the eye early on will def make you lary

3. Forget prone - in Africa you wont get a prone shot. Aim to shoot well in 3 positions
1. offhand to 50 yards, 2. off sticks standing to c 125 Yards, 3. off sticks sitting to 200 yards. Zero loads using these positions

4. Trigger pull is vital - it must be the breaking glass total surprise every time, get an arnold jewel, timney or match combat trigger and set to 2.5 - 3.5 lbs Dont have it too heavy. this is the only way you will get a good sight picture every time you shoot and know whether you have pulled a shot or not

5. Shoot about 10 rounds at a time and in between shoot exactly the same but with a .22 rimfire - you'll soon tell if yr flinching

6. If your planning a buff hunt, learn to shoot 5 rounds offhand, 25 yards into a 9" black paper plate as quick as poss and get them all in - make the first 2 really count

7.Love the rifle and everything abt it, wood figuring, barrel bluing, safety click etc etc - you need to be absolutely intimate and familiar with it - I have several nice rifles but the 375 is def my favourite now. If I could only keep one, this would be it, I am now completely utterly confident in it, I dont notice recoil at all in the field and hardly notice full 300 grain loads at the range now either ( I am 6ft 3 and 12 stone)

I am hoping I can start to feel the same way about the 500 nitro double I have just got that feels like a boxing match at the moment!

As an aside I am intrigued on the choice of 375 and 416 - they are fairly close re performance and what you would use them for. If you already have the 375, why not think 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs if you want a bigger bolt or 470 for a double??

Jeffosso's avatar shows a good example of offhand bigbore technique - right arm down, body kinda scruntched over, tight and ready to roll with recoil. The last thing you want to do is hang your arm way out or support the back of your elbows on something rigid (like your knees or a bench).

Roger on all the above, don't over do it with the blockbusters and reduced recoil loads and/or dryfiring go a long way.

Cheers!

PWS

I believe you are already an expert shot as a lot of guys in this forum ,but we all can learn in a SAFARI PREP course like the gunsite course,besides that i would make a course with DON HEATH of Zimbawe hes real experienced in heavy rifles ,shooting and in combat too .Ishooted thousands of shots throug my old cz but i always learning from another shooters after one of this courses i would go to Australia to use the rifle culling donkeys ,cows,hogs,camels etc.Juan

Can someone Please tell me how much a stone weighs............Sorry for my ignorance .......Thanks........

isit possible to go to Australia for a cullinghunt for me sometime also ?

im thinking serious on to go to zimbawe for the course in rifa to train with the PH`s. So im going soon start with more shootingpractice.

Hollis,

Great reply, thanks. That is the kind of detail I was looking for. It helps a great deal having a performance objective!

Reference the caliber choice. Call it incremental. I have the 375, the 416 seems like the next step up with a performance increase. My intent is to have a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott. My thoughts are once I am proficent with the recoil, train on the 375 regularly and routinely. As mentioned before, I have little recollection of recoil and muzzle blast with an animal in the crosshairs. I like the idea of pushing the stress for DG by getting into fast reloads. A very important skill....

Thanks again, this is great stuff...

Cheers

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Can someone Please tell me how much a stone weighs............Sorry for my ignorance .......Thanks........

One stone equals 14 pounds.....

Whatever you do, DON'T shoot any of Tank's guns!
He's got them stoked with 'ouch' loads.

George

Jeff,

I started with a .375 H&H. Didn't seem bad, but I did notice that it wasn't that pleasant to shoot from the bench.

Next was a .416 Rigby. It was a bit jarring from the bench. So I spend most of my time with it from sticks or offhand.

Next one was a .470 NE. This one was broaching unpleasant from the bench. The guys on the forum noted thst in the old days the fellas who did regulation of double rifles did so from a standing rest. So I built one ... and wouldn't you know ... they were right. When you are standing your body can roll to absorb the recoil and that makes life MUCH better.

Practice is the main key. Choosing loads is another key ... lighter bullets and propellents that require less charge weight seem to generate less recoil. In some cases, they csn make pretty good hunting loads too.

Have taken Gemsbock, Hartebeast, and Cape Buffalo with the Rigby loaded with 350 gr Barnes X bullets at 2700 fps. Never noticed the rifle recoiling when game was in the sights I have noticed that the caliber seems to be much more effective than the .375s.

You already have the good start with the .375 H&H. Get some sticks and arrange a standing rest and you'll be set to go up to the .416 or the Lott. Best of luck!

So Hollis only weighs 168 lbs.........At 6'3" tall I think that qualifies him as an ecktomorph.. According to my multiplication I,ll go a healthy 17.5 stone [ Thanks trophy.]And a woppin 5'8 1/2" tall..Endomorph.. No slight in any way intended to Hollis ,or any one else.. But it goes to show what all of us have said about your rifle fitting YOU .........And sometimes it takes some work......The other day I went up to the local range ...Which was covered in 3ft of snow.......I didn,t want to waste the trip so I wandered around on snowshoes with my dogs shooting trees.....With my Red Mister.........It was a moderate load of 350 gr speer .416 bullet @ 2650 fps....A nice general purpose load..I shot 20 rounds .all from off hand .ranges were 25-100 yrds.....most of the trees were 4" diameter.. I would shoot 3 or 4 rounds and shoe over and check my shooting .. Then pick another tree and shoot it and go check it ... Its a lot of fun , and is like walking in a park with all the brush smashed down by the snow......As I have my rifle set up for me it is totally comfortable......With the 416 it is easy to see bullet holes ,and I was very happy to see all my shots where I had called them and almost all hits ...At 100 yrds on 1.5 x I wasn,t as good but within a 6" area off hand......What is even better.. It was truley fun!! and a good way to get out of the house....

Jeff,
here's the three things outside of your "head" you need to worry about..
gun weight
LOP/FIT
load data..

However, unless you are restocking or have enough room to add a pad, the LOP is what it is.

If you reload, start with powder puff loads and work up. seriously.

the stuff IN your head you need to worry about.
HOLDING the rifle correctly. (assuming you are right handed)
Left hand should GRIP the stock, and pull BACK into your shoulder

Right hand should grip the stock, and press DOWN

Your weight should be SLIGHTLY (and I mean slightly) forward balance..

Your body should be TURNED with your left shoulder foreward...

from the waist up, you should be fairly tight.. not locked, just "Ready"

your right shoulder should roll slightly forward, bunching the muscle there

the rifle pad should be IN the shoulder pocket

your right elbow DOWN

your knees slightly bent and relaxed.

your body is now a "shock absorber" from your ankles to your mid back...

when you touch it off, allow the rifle to rise and your body to rotate... it will do surprisingly little if your body is ready to ride...

however, if you walk up, stiff as can be, lock your body into position, and yank the trigger, the recoil will BANG into your locked torso and shoulder, the rifle will rise, and it won't be nearly as plesant.

jeffe

Vicodin

Use the paper plate method. Put paper plates up at 25,50 and 75 yrds. 100 if your feelin lucky! Shoot standing and kneeling. Use a tree or anything else for support if possible, don't use tripods or other gimics . Don't use those stupid sticks or bother with prone position. See what range you can keep all your shots on a plate. Shoot maybe 6 shots and quit. Be honest, whatever range you kept all the rounds on the target, thats your real effective range. Trigger time is your friend. When you can keep all your shots on a 50 or 75 yrd plate go hunting. Roll with the recoil and don't fight it with your body. Don't develop a flinch. Practice with a friend you can hand you dummy cartridges once in awhile so you can check for a flinch. Have fun and don't sweat it. I have a lady student who weighs 105;bs shooting my .458 Lott offhand and staying on the plate at 75 yrds. No one has ever told her the Lott Kicks so she's not afraid of it and doesn't flinch. Women listen, most men don't.-Rob

You are obviusoly a seasoned rifle shooter so accuracy is not your issue. It sounds like you are asking about handling recoil.
I love the #1 but the recoil pad is the first place to start, then get the trigger done to a crisp break, not less than 3.5# IMO. After you get sighted in, get off the bench, it just aggrevates recoil. Robs paper plate idea is great but I WOULD practice off sticks for 100yd shots, that's what most PHs will want you to shoot off. Then work kneeling to standing as the range decreases.
I assume you'll handload and starting w/ lighter bullets helps. I shoot a .404jeffery & my plinking loads are 300gr bullets @ 2400fps, working loads are 380gr @ 2250fps. The SPeer 235gr in the .375 are quite pleasent to shoot & 350gr Speers in the .416R will keep your fillings in place.
I hunt quite a bit w/ my #1s, but not DG. A quick, relaible reload will be in order. Practice & I find it's not much slower than a bolt gun. I made this little cartridge holder for mine.

Morph-
You have a PM.

quote:

Use the paper plate method. Put paper plates up at 25,50 and 75 yrds. 100 if your feelin lucky! Shoot standing and kneeling. Use a tree or anything else for support if possible,

This is exactly what I do, but I throw in some stick work as well. Sticks won't help you work on your recoil tolerance, but they do come in VERY handy at times in Africa and pays to be able to use them. (just as an example, on a couple occassions we got in on buff and had to wait them out...ie. wait for the bull to move into a good position for a shot...if I had to hold my rifle up for the whole time (measured in minutes), I would have been shaking like a leaf by the time the shot opportunity came. The sticks bore the weight of the firearm while waiting and minimized movement when the time came.)

Cheers,
Canuck

The pie plate concept is something I use with my son for his training. It helps me determine his maximum effective range. It is a good idea and a good test of skill.

I have been shooting off sticks from the kneeling and sitting position for my normal hunting but never tried standing. I plan to practice that extensively.

This is a wonderful post and extremely helpful. Cheers

Jeff

As many have said, use a Lead Sled when sighting in from the bench rest.

I never shoot my Lott from the bench - except when I forget. And then I remember why I never do that.

Fact is, I sighted it in using sticks and itshoots damn good.

Jeffe

You also forgot about telling your mind that you really like the thump and the recoil everytime you light one off.