The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores My favorite dumb arguement...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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New cartridge X is no good because it doesn't do anything better than old cartridge Y Let see if that were valid by 1915, we had the 6.5x55, 7x57, 30-06, 8x57, 9,3x62 375hh, and 416 rigby. In 1925 we had the 270 Winchester, I believe the first factory round that was an honest 3000 fps with its standard bullet weight; i.e., medium sized game and much flater shooting. In the mid 50s we get the 458 Win Mag and the 338 Win Mag, the first two "magnums" in a standard length action. There hasn't been cartridge created since the mid 50s that can do anything (even when you include the cost issue of a magnum action) that any of the above cartridges can't do. You could probably make a case for the 300 Win as the first truly all around non DGR cartridge but that only gets us to 1963. Yep, you guys have to get rid of all your bolt action rifles if they aren't in calibers listed above. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Roy Weatherby made something for every application and then some by the mid 50's. One could easily argue that one brand could cover every application there was or is. Whether or not you like his action is another topic. | |||
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It's all about selling new guns. Winchester short mags, Remington short mags, ultra mags, Supper short mags. The gun manufactures have done a great job convincing us that we need somthing better just to seperate us from our money. Pretty much all these new cartridges are good if not great, but damn they sure are redundant. I like a great quote from an old Hodgdon loading book about the 25/35 Winchester, "The 25/35 is a good woods cartridge for those who remember when it did'nt take a belted magnum to kill a skinny little whitetail". I've never owned a 25/35 but that sure puts things in perspective. | |||
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So true! Except there be no woods in these parts and the Deer are of the Mule type. Still a quality .308 is plenty to 300 yards. | |||
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LOL.. Mike, the entire "Deal" was done with the 8x57j, with the .318 bullet... that round, in a marksman's hands, can take enything from chipmonks to rhino.. and HAS... everything else is "hooey"... wait a second.. the 470 AR does something never done before... a .475 bullet, in a standard length action, that beats the 470 NE ... the 458 winchester did it with a .458, but 2150 was all it could do. there is NO other standard length 470, period (marty's rhino excepted) and the .550s are new bores.. and they meet or beat the 577NE with fairly common brass.... and the 40-07 is sure enough interesting... and Dave's 470Mbogo is without peer, the most interesting wildcat on the planet today and the first commerical 3000fps round was the 250-3000 savage... yeah, light bullet, but a deer slayer and nil recoil MY favorite quote, from the 7mag shooters "what do you need [anything over .375], that will just blow them up and ruin the meat" ... truer words from a highspeed mag guy where spoken, and you'll need an hour to make him even begin to understand... i know, i used to be one of those guys jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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what cant you kill with 6.5x55 and a 375hh? seems like a man w/ those two could do everything he needed. | |||
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I agree for the most part. However I was told the 250/3000 often chambered in the Savage model 99 was the first 3000 fps round, hence the name. | |||
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Actually, Roy Weatherby's .375 Wby of 1944 reached the pinnacle of versatility and adequacy. Everything else since then has been just for fun and "busyness." | |||
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So what's your point?  Although you did leave out your choice of the turn-of-the-century nitro express rounds shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps, which would round out the list (allowing that the list was for more than bolt actions). I think it is beyond serious debate that we have gone absolutely bonkers with the whole wildcat, new caliber craze. Mike | |||
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Shooters as a group are obsessed with minutia. Look at the wars that have been fought on these forums over trivialities such as barrel twist ... Or maybe we just have too much time on our hands and like to argue a lot? analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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In fact we could delete every other caliber and have at most two choices left in the remaining calibers and still have something for every need or desire. Does anyone know what it actually costs us annually to have such a plethora of cartridges sitting on dealers shelves for our pleasure! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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It's not that new cartridge X is no good, but generally, it doesn't outperform old cartridge Y by an amount great enough to justify the outlay of several hundred dollars or more to obtain it. George  | |||
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    ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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That only applies if you already own the old cartridge. If you are in a situation where you are considering a purchase anyway, and now have old and new to choose from the dynamic is completely different. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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I have owned 6 on that list. Seven if you count the newbie 300WM. I currently own the 270 Win and 416 R. I will not give up my 338-06 for another 338 WM. | |||
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Hey Mikey- You don't call or write me anymore. I was wondering what happened to you? I thought you might of been arrested ( again)?-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Totally Agree! I propose the following light duty and medium duty all purpose rounds!  | |||
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Also, don't forget the: .280 Ross (1906) .275 H&H Magnum (1912) 7x64 Brenneke (1917) .300 H&H Magnum (1920/1925; I've seen it listed both ways) 8x64S Brenneke (1912) .333 Jeffery (1911) (could pretty much fill the role of the .338 Win Mag) .404 Jeffery (1910) Just to name a few.  -Bob F. | |||
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Bob, 404 Jeffery was 1905. The first and finest truly adequate bolt action cartridge. | |||
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There is nothing new under the sun. Originality is the art of concealing your source. Et pour les canadiens, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Wrong. There is a .395 Tatanka, aka "Forty-Ought-Seven," new under the sun. There is a .550 Magnum new under the sun. There is a 606 Mammoth (.595 caliber) new under the sun. Shall I go on? How are these not new under the sun? | |||
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There is NOTHING they can do that could not be done before, by other and often better alternatives. They are ALL UTTERLY REDUNDANT. Sorry, RIP, old pal, but you are planting plowed ground. New means more than different. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Who has photos of the Wooley Mammoth Cartridge? Is this another BMG mutation, necked up T-Rex, rebated Weatherby or what? | |||
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RIP, I was just going by the sources that I have in my library. (Boddington's Safari Rifles, for example, and some other books.) I've never seen anything that indicates the .404 Jeffery was from as early as 1905. Interesting... Where did you find that info? Cheers! -Bob F. | |||
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Alf. It has been posted here many times before. 1905. Boddington is no authority on the 404 Jeffery, eh? | |||
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Well, I realize Boddington isn't the definitive source on such things but I did mention other books in my library besides Boddington. (Which I can't exactly remember which ones right now as I type this.) I'm not trying to be argumentative, by the way... I'm always willing to learn. I've been around here long enough to know that ALF is very knowledgeable when it comes to Mauser rifles, cartridges, etc. I'll have to do some searching on here to find the old threads about this. Still, most sources that I've seen show the "big four" from this time period as:.425 Westley Richards -- 1909 .404 Jeffery -- 1910 .416 Rigby -- 1911 .375 H&H -- 1912 Of course, that doesn't mean that "common knowledge" in the gun world isn't repeated over and over even if it's incorrect. For example, John Barsness and Dave Scovill have uncovered some info that indicates the .270 Winchester dates from as early as 1917. See Handloader magazine, #241, June 2006. Seems that World War I intervened and the mass retail introduction of the .270 had to wait until after the war. (As I'm sure you know, the U.S. entered WWI in 1917 even though the war for most of the European nations started in 1914.) Cheers! -Bob F. | |||
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+1 there. Since I don't own a 270, I can buy a 270 WSM that is better than the 270 Win.  Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Bob, Search this forum for "404 Jeffery 1905" and you will find plenty. Alf: "The 1905 drawing of the case is the one we now know ..." Alf reading from page 55 of his 1910 Jeffery Catalog: "... the new .404 rifle ... 1905 Model Rimless cartridge etc.etc." I think I have a replica/reprint of a Jeffery catalog at home with a reference in it to 1905 origin of the .404 Jeffery. I am not within reach of it at the moment. | |||
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Again, i htink the bashers of new cartridges forget that nobody is bashing thier old cartridge, just talking about hoow good the new one is. I own and use cartridges that are well over 100 years old and I use brand new ones, too. It's all about what interests you. If you don't currently own a 375 H&H, and you want to buy a 375 caliber rifle, why not try the 375 Ruger if it interests you? 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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I would be happy with a selection from the calibers you mentioned along with a couple from the list that BFaucett listed that were also developed by that time. "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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I didn't see the 405 Winchester on the list yet. What year did that come out again? 1904? *we band of 45-70ers* USAF AMMO Retired! | |||
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All the new cartridges do is make me want me to go back to the older stuff that got us where we are today... .45-70 (I have 2) 8x57 (I have 2) .405Win (on order...) .30-06 (1980 M-700 tack-driver) .300H&H (1983 M-700 Classic, a tack-driver) .375H&H (don't own one yet...) There are some new calibers in my gun cabinet; .416RM, .17HMR, .480 Ruger and the .458 Lott (is relatively new, commerically speaking). IMHO, since the .338WM was brought out back in 1958 the only really good calibers to come along have been the 8mmRM and it's pretty much dead; a handloaders only proposition, the .416RM, the .458 Lott and the .480 Ruger (handgun). The 7mmRM was and is over-rated IMHO. None of the new short mag, or Super Short Mag calibers (including .375Ruger) interest me . They are only there to sell guns, as some suggested. All these new calibers do is achieve near identical results to the old standards, just in a different set of dress pants... Yep, we sure got a lotta redundant calibers, but the good news is that fellas can play with whatever turns their fancy, and really I think that's a good thing. | |||
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I believe that it was Micky 1 who posted "Never Hunt with a Cartridge Younger tha You are". So that leaves me with the 30-06 and the 375H&H.  Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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