How effective are muzzle brakes on rifles that produce approx. 2400 fps muzzle velocity? I know that they are considered quite effective on rifles like the big Weatherbys, .340, .378, .416, and the .460, but I am building a semi-lightweight .404 Jeffery, 8.5-9 lbs and would like to be able to shoot it often for practice without getting beat up. Also, any makers of brakes have one that is only bbl. diameter?, I don't want something that looks like it belongs on the main gun of a battle tank.

Muzzle brakes do reduce recoil. They will lower 300WBY to less than a 308WCF. They work ok on a 308 also.... but after using them on a 416WBY, 416REM, 300WBY, 308WCF, and a 257WBY, I now have no muzzle brake rifles. They are too loud and should not be used on when other people are with you when you shoot, especially dangerous game, IHMO. Many guides and PH's will tell you not to bring one into camp unless you don't mind a little hacksaw work on the end of your bbl before the hunt. A 9lb. 404 with original ballistics should not be too bad, especially with a proper stock design.

A muzzle brake would be effective on the rifle you mentioned. If you want to install a brake try the Vias muzzle brake. It is supposed to be a good deal less noisy than most other brakes. There may be a few PHs that will hassle you about a muzzle brake, but there are plenty who won't. Ray Atkinson is one that won't.

Let me add to the support for the VAIS brake...do a good job of reducing recoil and add only a little to the overall noise.....my PH in Africa had no problem with the one on my .375.

A .416 or .375 with a VAIS brake will actually be quieter than something like a 7mmRemMag or .300 WinMag without a brake. I have never had a dirty look at the range when I am working on loads.

You could have a quality brake fitted to your bbl by any qualified gunsmith. There are several brakes on the market that would blend in to the muzzle contour. The gunsmith could also fit a thread protector to the end of your bbl. that could be used when you do not want a brake on your bbl. The brake could be used for practice sessions only. Remember that the point of impact will probably be different with or without the brake.

What I had been hopeing for is an integral brake that I would never have to remove. The last thing I want is a wandering zero DGR. Any hunt I book abroad will be through Mr. Atkinson and I am sure that if I request it, he will book me with a PH operation that is "brake friendly". I am not afraid of recoic, I simply shoot better (mostly faster follow up shots) without having to contend with rifle rise. I tend to shoot a new firearm a great deal and I just want to be as proficient as possible.

I completely support your thoughts on the use of a non-removable internal muzzel brake on a big bore. I have machined muzzel brakes into a number of barrels with considerable success. I also believe in total reliability and the reduction in recoil on a heavy kicker is extremely important particularily for a fast second shot. Losing a removable brake in the field or having it unscrew on you is a big mistake. My internal brakes usually are made about .040 over bore diameter and feature 5-9 radially distributed holes spaced about .150-.250 apart. Nothing fancy and no gas deflectors. The tools I use produce an internal 11 degree crown. While there are more efficient brakes available, I typically find recoil to be reduced by about 40-50% as compared to the same cartridge in an un-braked rifle.
As for any PH who complains about muzzel brakes. My philosophy is simple, I won't hunt with him.-Rob

richard10x,

After having owned 2 460 Wbys with the integral Pndleton Dekicker I would never again owna rifel with integral brake.

Now this may not apply to you, so just a thought. I have alays used a lot of reduced loads and where those 2 Wbys were a pain was that even with reduced loads where the brake was not required, they still really cracked on your ears.

Another point. Recently a mate of mine (who is rcoil sensitive) hada 300 Ultra made on his Rem 700 Stainless. He has the barrel double magna ported as we call it out. Has an extra pair of slots.

As things turned out for various reasons, ater not nany shots, the 300 Ultra was not for him.

But he has been unable at this stage to sell the virtually new match grade barrel. No one wants to chop the magna porting off because of the barrel being shortened and his potential buyers don't want teh magna porting.

What about a KDF style brake with epoxy on the threads. With heat you could still get it off.

Mike

Rob,

What about a bit of lock tite on the threads, would that work to keep it on??

My .585 will have a answer style break on it.

Barrels neally finished gentlemen, then it will be starting to get put together.

I have fitted quite a few muzzle brakes over the last few years. In regard to the possibility of a muzzle brake accidently coming unscrewed in the field. If the barrel is accurately machined and single point threaded it is a near impossibility. When the threads are machined accutately you can turn the brake on easily but feel almost zero wobble. And when you inspect the threads closely they will be smooth and shiny with no burrs. When the brake butts up against the shoulder you will feel it torque up solid and tight using a spanner wrench only 3 inches long. The only thing I put on the threads is anti seize lubricant. The only time I've seen lock tite used on a muzzle brake was when some local gun quack who thought he was a gunsmith cut rough and poor fitting threads and tried to compensate for the poor fit with lock tite.

I agree with Robogunbuilder in that a very effective muzzle brake can be machined integral with the barrel. Bear in mind though a properly fitted brake will not even show a seam and look as though it was an integral part of the barrel. You can also install the front sight ramp so that when you take the brake off and install a sleeve the ramp sits on top of it and it is hard to notice that it ever had a brake.

I will also cast my vote for the Vais brake, they have an ingenious design that really does cut down on the muzzle blast. They are also pretty effective in recucing recoil.

Whats the diff b/w the Vais & the answer, couls someone post a link to the Vais or a Pic??.

It would be greatly appreciated.

pc....the Answer brake has a lot of tiny holes drilled perpendicular to the bore and when the gas behind the bullet reaches the holes some of it blasts out the holes at a very fast speed (imagine a high pressure hose)...it is this gas movement perpendicular to the other gas flow that provides the recoil reduction and it is the high speed and direction of this vented gas that caused the extra blast and it is loud!

The Vais brake has an expansion chamber machined into it and when the gas hits the expansion chamber it goes into it and briefly goes parallel to the bore....the brake also has holes slightly larger than the Answer brake holes drilled perpendicular to the bore that go thru the expansion chamber and intercept the gas from the expansion chamber....so you have the gas venting perpendicular to the bore running into gas venting parallel to the bore (at right angles) with the overall effect being like mixing two high pressure hoses at ninety degrees...the escaping gas is slowed down and diffused. The end result is almost as much recoil reduction (still very effective) and almost no increase in noise. Depending on your caliber and barrel diameter most of the time the brake is the same diameter as your barrel. I also want to restate that I have never had anyone give me a dirty look at the range and my Vais brakes are on a .375 mag and a .300 mag...both rifles are light weight but very shootable and I am recoil conscious.

With respect to a change of impact when the brake is off...yes it happens but is isn't a big deal as the change is consistent and not very big in either of my rifles. If I don't want to use the brake I just dial in the correction but I can't imagine not using the brake....my PH couldn't tell when my brake was on or off when he had his back turned.

My smith is sort of reccomending the Answer for my .585. And a couple of others have said despite the noise it does reduce recoil.

I have several rifles with Answer Products muzzle brakes and they are extremely well machined...they screw on, but look like part of the barrel. Mine go on & off using one of those rubber gizmos that you loosen jar tops with and hand pressure only. I'm pretty sure that the Answer Brake holes are not perpendicular to the barrel, but are aimed slightly forward, I'll double check tonite. I recommend them!

I like muzzel brakes because then reduce recoil dramatically and I and everyone else in the world shoots better with less recoil! Noise is not a problem in the field! With that said I still prefer integral brakes because I prefer to build big bore African dangerous game rifles with pretty barrel band front sights on them. Screw in muzzel brakes look stupid IMHO on such a rifle. Using an indexing head you can machine in a break around the front sight band and through it and still have it look neat and function efficiently. As far as screw in breaks go. They don't come unscrewed on the trip to the range,but have a nasty habit of doing so after being bounced around in a Cessna and or Land Rover for two weeks and after being handled and played with by your gun bearers, trackers, wife etc. This happened to me in Botswanna with a well made Rem 700 in 7STW with a well fitted brake. I checked the tightness of the brake every day after that. Many guns WILL change their POI sometimes dramatically without the break and in the field is no place to suddenly discover that your gun doesn't shoot exactly where you aim it. No I don't recomend locktite on a brake as the whole point of a screw in brake is to be able to take it off. Just remember to check it frequently. To be quite frank, on a DGR if I had to use a removable break, I'd put in a small set screw. -Rob

Check this 500 Jeffey with detachble brake. One mean looking gun...Mike

http://www.rbbigbores.com/20inchm.jpg

Mike 375- That ugly looking brake sticking out from that nice banded front sight looks terrible IMHO. A pimped-out sniperized DGR! Put your finger over the picture of the brake and just imagine how slick it would look machined into the barrel. Anybody can thread a barrel and stick on a brake. A true craftsman demands elegance.-Rob

That rifle is built by a 'smith here in Southern California and although the barrels tend to be quite short they balance very nicely and the brakes are quite effective.

If anyone would like a photo of the VAIS brake I would b glad to e-mail them one...just post your e-mail and I will send it to you.

DB Bill,

I am waiting at:

Mike375@optushome.com.au

Mike

You have mail for the VAIS picture.

I think that Rifle looks great, sought of makes me feel like I should not have a 26" barrell on the .585 I am having built. But I want the velocity. I suppose you can't have everything.

I have removable brakes on several of my big guns, like everybody I shoot better when I'm not being pounded to death..

My brakes screw in under the barrel band front sight and I have a muzzle cap that protects the threads and looks like a regular crowned barrel when the brake is not on, for all intensive purposes...

My POI does not change, with or without the brake, not one bit on any of my rifles...I use the brake to sight in and test loads and shoot at the range..sometimes I use the brake while hunting and sometimes I don't....

None of the Safari Companies that I book for have ever complained about a brake, and if they ever do I'll suggest to them that God give them fingers to pull the trigger and stick in their ears....A PH would not be in business long with such an attitude and he shouldn't be.

All the PH's I have known just want the client to shoot well and if a brake makes him shoot better they are all for it.

I heard one PH (about 19 years old) expounding on how he wouldn't allow it until his boss told him if he ever said such things to a client he could be back farming...

Mostly this is a rumor propagated by a certain gun writer who had a hard time telling s--t from Shinola in the first place and he expounded on the subject and had half the US hunting public believing that one would be gilflurted if he showed up at camp with a braked rifle, several others agreed with him as usual and the rumor soared...this is not the case at all, PH's seldom turn business away for any reason...

I have a VAIS brake on my .375H&H.

For me, point of impact changes by approximately 7" at 100 yards when I remove the brake and just use the thread protector. The groups are still very small, but just land 7" apart on the target.

I took off the brake when I hunted in Africa last year. It was a good thing, because my PH did not like brakes at all.

By the way, I handled a couple of the rifles like the DG rifle in the photo above (same builder and probably the same rifle), while at SCI this year. That muzzle brake is not removable.

After handling that rifle at the show, I walked over to my PH's booth and asked why doesn't he buy one as his back-up rifle (his back-up rifle is currently a .458 Win Mag). He said to me "remember the morning we hiked chasing buffalo for over 20 kilometers before 12 Noon in 100+ degree heat?", I said "Yes"
He said "Could you have carried that rifle?"

I just dropped the subject.

Tim

Of course, a wide variation in opinion could be expected with a subject such as this. Thought I would add my thoughts to this even though my experience doesn't match up with some of the guys here.

Don't need a muzzle break on anything .416 and under even if shooting off the bench, but always use a PAST pad. Even use it hunting as it even assists me shouldering the rifle. The calibers where I part company with on bench shooting are the .458, .450, and .460, etc.
if they are unbraked. Bothersome recoil for me. However, I see no problem with a removable brake, even if the POI varies by 6 inches and it never comes loose.

It is my experience that PH's don't like two things: Unbraked rifles and 460 Weatherbys. Unfortunately, my integral braked 460 is my best rifle for shooting off-hand. Don't ask me why, but it has never seen a hunt and probably never will. Remarkably, I use it as a tune-up rifle for the other calibers. With anything I now own there is no problem with recoil from the bench, but still 20 rds are a reasonable limit.

I feel the PH has a legitimate gripe about muzzle brakes on hunting rifles. It's his job to assess the shot and response on the animal when the hunter is trying to hang on to the rifle. Put yourself in his position, no way I would want to be in a spot to get the full blast without ear protection. At the range recently, was the recipient of getting a full 50 BMG blast. Even with hearing protection, it would have taken me off target if it was my job to follow up.

One thing that is evident is that the Vias muzzle brake has a big following and it needs to be checked out. No way, I want to get battered in shooting the big bores when I don't have to. Another reason there is a .500 in my future.

"my doctor says, sure keep on shooting big bores"

pmm

I have been following this and other threads relating to muzzle brakes, and I would like to make a distinction which makes sense to me, at least. This distinction is between recoil, and muzzle rise (lift). I have quite a bit of experience (in the IPSC world) with muzzle brakes. This is, that muzzle brakes reduce muzzle lift, but NOT recoil. The effect on the shoulder of a braked rifle should be nil (with one caveat). In addition, the effectiveness of a muzzle break is in proportion to the muzzle velocity of the projectile, thus, the effectiveness of a muzzle brake on a 300WM will be greater than the effectiveness on , say, a 416 Rigby. All this can be verified by a conversation with Ron Bartlett who bought the rights to the original Vais muzzle brake. This is not to say, that there is no effect, but rather that the effect on muzzle lift for a 416 Rigby might be 25-30%, while the effect on a 300WM might be closer to 50%. Thus the effect of a muzzle brake is to improve effectiveness of getting on target for the follow up shot (important in big game hunting).All this happens also in the IPSC world, where the effectiveness of a muzzle brake on a 38Super is much greater than, say, a 45ACP, which was why (before the high capacity days) people like Rob Leatham started using the 38Super. Now, for my caveat, I do sense, a small but noticeable INCREASE in felt recoil (against the back of my hand) with my braked Super, as opposed to my unbraked Super (same gun, different barrel). I don't know if this would translate into a rifle, I suspect that it might.
Peter.
PS. I am planning on having my 416 Rigby fitted with a Vais brake by Ron Bartlett (NOT by George Vais)

Peter....I think you will find that when Ron puts on your "original" VAIS brake you will be very satisfied. One difference you will find is that while IPSC comps normally only have holes in the top, the VAIS brake has holes all around the brake with the result being much less of an effect on muzzle rise than you described. You are also right where you state the higher the velocity, the more effective the brake but one other design factor is the diameter of the brake compared to the bore size....the more time the gas is in the brake before it exits, the more recoil reduction there will be.....ultra slim brakes may have nicer lines but aren't as effective.

It is interesting that when George was making his "original" brake he thought it was important that the holes go all around the brake in order to minimze any possible bullet "upset" from an uneven porting of the gas but in his "new" brake (which I think looks like crap and appears simply to be designed to get around his agreement with Ron) he now touts not having holes on the bottom. Like you I like his original design much better.

DBBill, thanks for the reply. You are correct in everything you say, except that if you look at some of the newer comps, they do have holes in the side! Cosmetic or marketing, I don't know. Certainly the expansion chamber concept results in greater efficiency. However, the big question is what is the purpose? My numbers (percentages) were from Ron (but my memory could be wrong although not by too much). I guess you are saying that the Vais does not have much effect on muzzle rise? Am I reading you correctly here? If so, what is the purpose? Is it to reduce actual recoil ie. impact on the shoulder? If so, how is this done without pushing gases "back" to counteract the backward push. My impression was that recoil is the result of 'ol Newton ie. action and reaction. In other words, if you push out a 300 gr. bullet at 3000 fps, the recoil is equal to that pushing against your shoulder. Clearly a 9 pound gun will have lesser rearward velocity than a 6 pound gun, but the math is still the same. As I recollect it is the conservation of momentum ie. MV = MV .I am not talking about "felt recoil" ie. the subjective feel of that force, which is a function of stock design etc. just the raw physics of what is going on here.
Peter.

Peter
A muzzle brake works with the powder gas not the bullet.
Their are 3 things that increase a brakes effectivness.
1 is the angle of redirection (180 deg while not obtainable would be best)
2 is the percentage of gas that is redirected (100% while not obtainable would be the best)
3 is the gas impingment area of the brake (the larger the better)
If you had a perfect brake the MV of the bullet would be the only thing that affected recoil.
In your recoil calc. remember it's MV(bullet) + MV(powder) = MV(recoil). Depending on the specific load the powder portion of the recoil can exceed 75% of the total recoil energy.
As far as the porting direction goes, the barrel will tend to move in oppisite direction (Newton), ports on top move the barrel down etc.

Rodgunbuilder, do you install/machine brakes on rifles other than the ones you finish up for customers? If so how would you like to have barrel shipped? finished barrel, or fitted and finished with action? should the barrel be sent in the white or after blueing? Also have Williams shorty ramp that I would like mounted on barrel muzzlw band. Can You supply price schedule forthe above work? please e-mail me at richard10x@yahoo.com Thank you for taking the time for your most needed responses, richard

Peter- I don't think you can draw any analogy between the brakes used on IPSC pistols and those used on High Powered Rifles. The basic designs are as different as the cartridges. I can unequevocably assure you the Muzzel Brakes on such rifles REDUCE RECOIL. If you don't believe me, I'd be happy to let you shoot my .50BMG with and without a muzzel brake. Heck, I'll let you see ( and feel) the difference between about 5 different brakes. YOU WILL realize THAT THEY REDUCE RECOIL! Brakes can be designed to minimize muzzel lift also, but the primary purpose is to reduce the recoil to a level which most shooters can accomodate and still shoot accurately. The most effective brakes actually deflect the gasses rearward and use the gas pressure to literally pull the rifle off the shoulder. Not very pleasant for the people near you, but recoil reduction approaching 50% can be obtained. -Rob

Robgunbuilder...the noise from those brakes can be handled with good ear protection but nothing will stop the "backk-blast" of gas from hitting your scope lens AND your face....talk about a way to induce a flinch fast. To me the elimination of the back-blast is a prime selling point for the VAIS brake.

Correct. I have seen a 50 BMG fired with a muzzle brake, and was told exactly where to stand to avoid the "benefits". It seems to me that there is a fundamental difference in design between the ones on a 50 BMG (which I can quite believe reduce recoil, because of the "backwards venting")
and a more conventional, Vais type brake. My analogy to the pistol brakes, as was pointed out, was erroneous, because pistol muzzle brakes tend to only have vents on the top whereas the typical rifle brakes (NOT 50 BMG) have vents around the circumference (with the exception that some do not have vents below the barrel, to avoid kicking up dirt etc. from prone shooting.However, I will ask the following question and then drop the thread:
1.Does a conventional muzzle brake reduce recoil (as opposed to muzzle lift)? If so, how?
Tailgunner, forgive me but I do not understand how your response answers my question. My Rigby shots a 400 grain bullet using 80-90 grains of powder. While the bullet is in the barrel, the powder cannot possibly be travelling faster than the bullet, which exits at say, 2400 fps. How can the powder possibly be 75% of the ejecta?
Peter.

second response. I plan on video taping me shooting my 416 Rigby this weekend (Before), and then doing it again (after) I have the Vais brake fitted. I guess I will have to spend $160 to answer my own question!
peter.

One comment on reducing muzzle rise. Since the axis of the bore is above the axis of the stock, and reduction in re-ward thrust will reduce muzzle rise. The 458 lott I had had symetrical 1/4" holes drilled in the bore, and yet muzzle rise was very moderate for such a large and light rifle.

Peter
I appoligize for my brain fart, (I should know better than to work from memory) the muzzle gas is 25-50 % of the total MV (mass velocity) of the ejecta (not up to 75%).
The gas is trying to expand at (approxamitly) 5200fps until the bullet leaves the muzzle, at which time the gas does obtain it's full potential velocity.
On my -06 the muzzle brake reduces the felt recoil to about that of a 223 bolt action (as noted be several shooters other than myself). It's a 2 stage can style ear spliter.
I will be intrested in your results, for possiable use on my 416 Rigby.

Hi you can check muzzlebrake.com these brakes are the same size as your barrel and work good to . Bob

From what I have read here there is know chance of my .585 shooting to the same point of impact with and without the break??

PC....at the range at which I expect you will be shooting your your boomer that there would be much different but if there is, it will be consistent so it would be an easy matter to adjust your sights for the difference once you know what it is. As an aside I expect that it is the shorter, whippier barrel with higher velcoity rounds that would show significant differences. If you are interested in the VAIS I would spend a dime and call Ron (I would e-mail him first to get him ready to answer to save a little long-distance money).

DB Bill,

Why would you think PC will only shooting the 585 at close range.

We need to educate you yanks on our shooting

Mike