So, it looks like there are not many places (outside of a custom shop) where one can buy a CRF rifle in 416 Rem. Basically, the Win model 70 Safari is about it. My problem with this unit is that it only holds 3 in the magazine.

I can see 3 choices:
- buy the Model 70 and invest in magazine work to hold at least 4 down, possibly including a new stock to fit a dropped mag floor.
- buy a CZ 550 in 375 H&H (which holds 5 down ) and rebarrel, and that means new sights and bbl band sling mount.
- search out custom shops and pay one of them a bunch of money for one of their rifles

Am I missing anything here? There just aren't too many options for what I want as far as I can see. thanks, the_captain

i liked and had a 416 rem...

3 down is enough!!!

but, if you want more, get a cz in 416 rigby, save your money on the extras, buy a floorplate (not full custom metal)from wisner, hold 4 down, and be able to go 300 fps faster than the rem.

and the money you save far more than offsets the inital cost of brass and dies

jeffe

Jeff:

Are you saying Wisner has just a floorplate for the .416 mags that adds a round? DOes this enesure 4 down ( i have read a lot abuut some holdng 3 and some holding 4, depending on the rifle). Is it just a drop in for the factory requiring no stock work? I'm about to get back on a .416 I'm reworking for aguy. He stuck w/ the factory stock but heavily modified it, so I can't get too radicle with the floor palte mods. Thanks fo rnay info you can provide.
.

Marc,
call jim... he's making cz floorplates, last i heard, that will add a round...

and CZ and I were talking this week.. they suggested the same... get an aftermarket floorplate, and it adds the 4th...

but some, if not most, hold 4 anyway, with a little work
jeffe

How much are you willing to spend to get a .416 Remington put together the RIGHT way so that you'll end up with a rifle you can bet your life on? I think that's the key question, because there are two shops that I can think of right away that'll produce what could be considered "ultimate" dangerous game rifles in .416 Remington.

There is absolutely NO excuse for a .375 H&H or .416 Remington that only holds four-down in the magazine, other than incorrect magazine geometry.

Here's an example of a .416 Remington, built on a Model 70 action, that's properly done:

www.hillcountryrifles.com

Go to "rifles" at the top of the home page, then to "rifles that are for sale now", and scroll down that page. You'll see two full-feature custom Model 70s that are really loaded, one in .375 H&H, and one in .416 Remington.

AD

Allen,

Just wondering if you meant "no excuse" for three-down rather than "four-down", as both rifles you mentioned on the Hill Country site were four-down. Am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time.

FWIW, my pre-64 375 holds four down.

-Steve

Steve, I meant that most factory .375s & .416s come with very poorly engineered, poorly constructed boxes that only hold three-down.

The most famous exception is the original pre-64 Model 70 in .375 H&H (and .300 H&H) that have 100% correct boxes that hold four-down, yet they're no deeper than a regular box. Once the short-magnums were introduced, beginning with the .458 Win. in 1956, the factories tried to make do with altered .30-06-size boxes for belted magunums in a cost-saving effort. This effort was entirely misplaced, and there's no logical mathematical reason for a .458 Win. (or .338 Win., or 7mm Rem.) that can't hold four-down.

That's why D'Arcy and Ted Blackburn create their own boxes for belted-magnums that hold four-down and are much more ruggedly built as well: To make up for yet another thing that the factories AREN'T doing right.

Best,
Allen

Allen,

That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.

Take Care,

-Steve

In the real world of hunting I think you will find that 3 down and one in the tube is enough to handle 99.9% of the circumstance you will encounter, and one more round probably won't keep you from what I term fate!

To me the extra round isn't as much of an issue as having a properly designed magazine box. The extra round is a bonus.

What about Sako. I don't know much about them, but their website shows a rifle in 416 Remington. It apparently has controlled round feeding unlike most other Sakos. I think the MSRP is about $2500.

I would be interested in people's opinion of this rifle. If it is allright, is it worth $1000 more than the Ruger?

Spitzer,

It is a different type of CRF to the Ruger. It is more like the PF counterbored bolt face you see on Weatherby, PF Model 70 and Rem 700...but some of the metal that makes for the counterbore has been removed which allows the cartridge to slide into the counterbore and under the extractor as it is leaving the magazine.

Model 70 now use the same system on some of their models for the WSSMs and WSMs.

It is similar to the Ruger in some respects in that the scope mount system has bases that clamp directly to the action and both rifles have a recoil lug system that is not part of the action.

Is it worth a $1000 more? Well it depends on how you judge things. In both cases if you pull the bolt back and push it foward and pull the trigger they will both go BANG

The Sako would be a much "nicer" rifle and just generally seen as a classier thing.

On the other hand the Ruger is in 416 Rigby which is a much classier thing than the 416 Remington.

The Ruger has an integral quarter rib which is normally seen as the classiest thing in town, but not with Ruger because it is invesment cast. The real classy integral quarter rib is where it is machined as part of the barrel.

There i nothing wrong with the investment cast integral quarter rib but compared to the one which is machined as part of the barrel it is probaly like comparing a photograph to a painting.

If forced to buy either rifle I would probably take the Ruger because I would prefer the 416 Rigby to the 416 Remington because it has much greater loading flexibility due to the bigger case capacity.

One last point. There is a cloud hanging over Sakos at the moment because several of them have blown to pieces. The models are all light barreled stainless with fluted barrels and a problem with the steel is the suspected culprit.

The barrels have split full length but the concern is the actions also split in half. There is a very large thread on Sako blowup on the gunsmithing forum.

There are quite a few Ruger 416 Rigby owners on the forum and they all seem very happy with their rifles for both accuracy and function.

Mike

Very nice and cogent post Mike.
Well done,
lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by Mike375:
The Ruger has an integral quarter rib which is normally seen as the classiest thing in town, but not with Ruger because it is invesment cast. The real classy integral quarter rib is where it is machined as part of the barrel.

There i nothing wrong with the investment cast integral quarter rib but compared to the one which is machined as part of the barrel it is probaly like comparing a photograph to a painting.

Mike

Unless I'm mistaken, on the Ruger Magnum rifles the receivers are investment cast but not the barrel and integral quarter rib. (I own two of these rifles.) On the Ruger Magnum rifles, the quarter rib is an integral part of the barrel and is made/machined as one piece. (NOT like the Ruger No. 1 rifles where the quarter rib is screwed on.) I seem to recall reading somewhere that it takes Ruger about 7 hours to make one barrel for the Ruger Magnum rifles.

From Ruger's web site:
"Quarter-rib reinforced magnum barrel that is machined from a solid block of high-strength alloy steel."

Also from Ruger's web site:

M77 Mark II Magnum Rifles:
For those who confront the largest and most dangerous game, the Ruger M77 Mark II Magnum rifle will fit the bill. Ruger Magnum rifles offer deluxe features including heavy barrels with machined integral ribs and folding leaf Express sights, and premium grade Circassian walnut stocks. Ruger M77 Mark II Magnum rifles are offered in .375 H&H, .416 Rigby and .458 Lott - for the ultimate stopping power.

-Bob F.

Bob,

Thanks for pointing that out. My error.

Mike

Bob,
Yes, thank you.
Some say that Circassian (Turkish) walnut does not exist anymore. Now why would that be, if Ruger is still using it? I am not knowledgeable in walnut. Sumbuddy who know?

You're welcome! Lord knows no one can know it all. I learn new things on here almost daily.

-Bob F.

I am (have been for a while) considering a big bore. NOt sure whether 375 or 416. I hear alot of favorables on Winchester for a factory gun, but I like the looks of Ruger. I see some Ruger users occasionally but would really like to hear from some more Ruger users of big guns. comments really appreciated since this is a big investment for me.

thanks

This is in relation to the magazine spring (not bottom metal) for increasing the magazine capacity of Winchesters from 3 to 4 down. And it is directly from the horses mouth - I've ordered one for my Model 70 Classic stainless in .375 H&H, but it's not here yet so I can't say it really works. I'll repost when I get it.

"Sir.

Your email was forwarded to me.

The factory spring normally has an "P" shaped bumper spot welded to it. This prevents you from trying to put another shell in the magazine.

We make an copy of the old Weatherby 378 magazine spring that does not have the bumper and is heavier than the Winchester spring.

Part number is MS and they retail for 9.95 USD plus shipping, this part is not on our website yet.

Jim Wisner"

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
In the real world of hunting I think you will find that 3 down and one in the tube is enough to handle 99.9% of the circumstance you will encounter, and one more round probably won't keep you from what I term fate!

I've got a blind box and will be going with two down and one in the pipe. It's a P-14 Enfield action, though, so the safety really IS a safety. (Muzzle direction is always important, I know.)

Russ

Redlander,
Good tip on the Wisner magazine spring. Thanks.

Circassian walnut really does exist, and there are some $3000 blanks here:

www.dressels.com/id15.htm

hikerbum,
The Ruger RSM is a great buy, epecially in .416 Rigby. The integral quarter rib barrel is a $2000 custom feature and you can get the Circassian walnut and the action thrown in to boot for less than you would pay for the barrel alone elsewhere than Ruger.

They first came out around 1991. Had the front sling stud through the forearm and a fat barrel (0.810") and weighed about 10.5 pounds bare/empty.

Around 1996 the sling base went onto a band on the barrel, still fat barrel. I have one of these. Mine has shot a 0.147" 3-shot group at 100 yards.

Current Ruger RSM .416 Rigby has a 0.750" barrel muzzle diameter and weighs about 9.5 pounds bare/empty. Sweet.

For .416 and .375, I like the Ruger. You can get a new pad, work on the trigger, and even get a fiberoptic front sight bead from NECG, and have no complaints.

Some of that Ruger Circassian walnut is great.

hikerbum,

You will probaly get the most responses on the African forum. Also a search on the African forum on 416 will bring up plenty on the Ruger.

I have owned one in 375 and had involvement with a couple of of others, one 375 and a 416.

416 is a pretty easy decision as M70 is only in 416 Remington unless you geet their custom shop rifle.

In my opinion, for a rifle to be basically used as it comes from the box and treated strictly on its merrits as opposed to what it might become or any historical aspects etc, I think the Ruger is better than the M70.

If I was buying a 375 as once only buy then I would buy M70. But that us because the Ruger is a real prick of a thing to bed and I don't like the scope mount system. I prefer bases screwed and glued. I suppose the M70 is generally seen as a better "basic" design or platform. That is reflected in very high end custom rifles in 375, Model 70s are everywhere and Rugers are nowhere. Undoubtedly the Ruger being investment cast comes against it in the custom market. Nothing wrong with investment casting except image. Probaby similar to a cork Vs screw cap on wine.

M70 quality control is generally poor at the worst problem you will strike with M70 (if you get it) is the barrels are not straight in the reeivers and that can causes some headaches and doubly so with some European scopes that have a smaller range of adjustments.

Another negative of the M70 compared to the Ruger is the shorter magazine. Some good shooting 375 loads get their best accuracy at a longer overall loaded length that is longer than the M70 magazine can hold.

In general the Rugers can make better shooters than the blued/walnut M70 375 because the second recoil lug on the barrel of the M70 can and does cause problems. But then for the price difference I guess you could virtually rebarrel the M70 with a match grade barrel and the M70 does not need a barrel lug in 375 and then you would have a rifle that would have more potential accuracy than the Ruger.

Doing anything with the Ruger barrel is obviously a big deal because of the integral quarter rib. To rebarrel a Ruger and have the integral quarter rib would cost very big dollars. But from experience with them and from what I see on the forums the 375s and 416 Ruger seem to have good barrels. The same seems to apply to the Ruger Number 1s in 375, 416 and 458.

Mike

I'm building a new 416 Rem. since I sold mine and have grieved simply too much..It is being built on an old sako FN action..It will have a Blackburn drop box for added capacity, along with all the other bells and whistles that go with a drop box English type gun...The stock is a rather plain piece of good Turkish walnut with long thin streaks of black running from the toe to the forend..Started to build another 404 but I have about 2000 loaded rounds of 416 Rem. and only aobut 250 404s on hand...