I'm not a big bore guy. I have only one rifle larger than .358. It has been somewhat of a wonder lately as to what the real pros are with the .444. When I try to determine a nitch where it totally excells I find none.

Can you guys clue me in? What am I missing here? roger

None, actually; unless you rebarrel to a suitably fast twist for heavy bullets. The factory barrels must have been cut with roundballs in mind. With a 1:14 to :16 twist they shoot heavy (cast) bullets very accurately. Don't know if anybody even makes a 300+gr hunting bullet for them.

JMHO

Rich

it is an excellent over powder 44 caliber super pistol round... that fits in a lever carbine..

SD sucks, bullet shape is worse...

but for a nasty nasy energy deliverier for thin skinned game it's not a bad choice...

take it to 150 yards, and you might as well have had the pistol

jeffe

The .444 is a fun cartridge for shooting deer out to 100 yards or so.

Guys who think they are serious about a big bore lever gun get a 45-70.

Guys who really are serious get a 50-110.

Bartsch.....I'm with you here. I can find no good use for the .444 except to please the ego.

If it's the answer to anything.....I don't know what the question was. Some might believe it's a brush cartridge and is likely bought with that in mind.

There is a tendency to forget an important bit of physics...

The tendency for a bullet to deflect from it's intended path on striking a twig, leaf, etc. is not related to bullet mass, velocity (or lack thereof) sectional density or even it's shape, but rather it's twist rate.

the Marlin's typical 1:38" twist is probably better for shooting it's 265gr bullets through the Flora and still hitting the Fauna than a 45-70 shooting relatively shorter 300gr bullets which have almost EXACTLY the same sectional density, because the faster 1:20" twist is more prone to "trip" the bullet offline.

Short fat bullets help, but the important thing is that they
don't need a lot of spin to stabilize them.
It's also arguable that the twist rate of a 44marlin is "Too slow" to stabilize heavier bullets there has been some success with bullets as heavy as 300gr, the problem is tha tthe 45-70 is simply better at throwing big bullets.
bigger bore and larger case capacity always helps.

But in point of fact the 265's that are factory loaded for the 444Marlin are NOT a Deer bullet, as they simply aren't designed to expand on deer.

The 444 is a close range Elk/Moose/Bear(black) gun and at 150-175yards is pretty good.
Though better closer.
And at Marlin speeds for the 265gr bullet
there probably won't be too much ruined meat.

I shoot for my freezer, not for my wall...

the issue with more powerful guns is that the vast majority of shooters (Yes Martha, even the ones here!) are only 200yard shooters anyway and the rifles they are using are 300-400yard rifles.

If you need something (EGO?) with a longer reach to make you feel better that's your choice, but the general tone here in many subjects is simply rude to the people who do not need that crutch to make them confident in what they are doing.

444Marlin shooters in the heavy timber gunning for elk probably have a better grasp of reality than someone walking the heavy timber with a 300Mag....

Frankly on Deer I think anything more powerful that a 30-30 is silly for most situations.
And sometimes a 30-30 is more than what's needed.

If I told you how many deer my grandfather killed with a 22semiauto PISTOL you wouldn't believe me, but I can safely say that his victims numbered in the thousands.
He was a farmer and had a family to feed....

That all being said my brother had a Marlin 444 and I chose a 45-70.... yes, the 45-70 is more capable for larger animals
The question I'm asking is does that difference in capability add up to anything in the real world?

I don't think it does....

Hey, I owned a 25-06 that I used for deer hunting for several years, and though I shot
many things with it I only once had a shot at a deer at over 175 yards while I was carrying it, though granted it was a buck on the far side of a cornfield at 410-ish, but it was one of only two bucks I've killed past 125yards.

So the same can be said of the smallerflat shooting rifles, what are they good for?

What are they good for outside the situation for which they were designed?

In it's element, soft skinned targets inside of 175yards, a 444marlin fills its niche well....

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
In it's element, soft skinned targets inside of 175yards, a 444marlin fills its niche well....AllanD

Thank you for sharing that , Allan. roger

The only niche a .444 marlin fits is the one for people who can't hit anything with a .44mag pistol and simply want to believe bigger just must be better. Nothing and I repeat nothing penetrates bush independent of twist rate or other old wives tales. I don't know how many times that myth has been debunked.-Rob

Well, everyone gets into the "big fast powerful"
(Like the Airforce in the 1950's and 1960's with figter aircraft, Yeah, I'm watching that show on the History Channel, but they have yet to say anything important
that I didn't already know) but forget that those big fast long range numbers can be incredibly destructive if you are presented with a shot in close...

But everyone wants to be prepared for theat Deer at 450yards (Not that they'd see it if there was a deer that far away even if it were PAINTED BLAZE ORANGE)

Few are willing to intentionally limit themselves to those shots that are within a given range no matter how much they profess that they want a deer/Elk/Moose within
a cartain yardage if they see an animal further out that doesn't seem interested in comming closer their resolve will weaken and they'll try for it...
In close on a Moose or Elk I would not feel undergunned
with a 444. And to be honest I own a 45-70 mainly because at the time I was looking for a Bigbore lever rifle I found a 45-70 first. I had previously located used 444Marlins for both my brother and my uncle.

In the years since I've seen only seen one or two 444Marlins offered for sale on the used rack at
any of the gunshops I visit regularly.
I get the impression that the people who have them tend to keep them. in that same time the 45-70 Marlins
I've seen number in the dozens.

If I'd found a 444 first...

With hot handloads the 444 seems a bit more
"user friendly" (Read Less abusive to your collarbone)
than a 45-70 can be.

ballistically there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference between a 444Marlin launching a 250gr
Partition (SD.194 BC.200) @2289fps
and a 45-70 Launching a 300gr partition
(SD.204 .199BC) @2282fps.

...except perhaps for a 16.6% reduction in recoil....

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
In the years since I've seen only seen one or two 444Marlins offered for sale on the used rack at
any of the gunshops I visit regularly.
I get the impression that the people who have them tend to keep them. in that same time the 45-70 Marlins
I've seen number in the dozens.

AllanD

Allen, the reason you don't see many 444 Marlins, has nothing to do with people hoarding them. The 45-70s were made in twenty times the number of the 444s! That's the reason.

Both are just fine for deer and black bear, and the like. For big bear, and moose, however the 45-70 is a far better choice, because of the much heavier bullets available. The 250 gr .429 dia of the 444 bullet, and the 300 gr .458 dia of 45-70 are both too light for those diameters, so BC suffers. At least the 45-70 can handle 400 gr bullets quite well, whis is still on the light side for dia, but far superior to the 250gr .429, or 300 gr .458, for penitration, on things big like Moose, and Brown bear.

When all is said and done, neither are the best choice for the largest of North American game, but the .458 45-70 comes closer than the 444 Marlin. The recoil comes with the terratory, when you put anything in a rifle configured like a Marlin lever action rifle. The little 336 Marlin 30-30 kicks as bad as a 300 mag in a bolt rifle.

I know that this type of rifle, along with pumps are very popular in Penn. and other places in the East, and they work for the type game most there hunt. Though I live in the West where the average shot on Muledeer are 200 yds minimum, and many are cross canyon shots of longer distance, I own several lever actioned saddle guns, from .22 lr to 405 Win, and 45-70. Top that off with , my favorite type of rifle is a side by side double rifle, the fact is, none of these rifle types are at their "BEST" past 100 yds. However, if one chooses to handicap himself with the rifle type, IMO, one should, at least, choose the most effecient cartridge avaliable in that rifle type! Between the 444 marlin, and the 45-70, in the same type rifle, the 45-70 wins hands down, balistically! Both are good woods deer cartridges, the 45-70 is simply the better of the two balisticlly, because of the larger dia, and the availability of heavier bullets with better Ballistic Coefficient!

Actually, I find the little mod 336 30-30 to be a more versitile cartridge, for deer hunting, with much better long range capabilities, than either of the other two, even in the woods! With less recoil as well!

Only one man's opinion, not to be considered a rule for anyone else!

If one wanted to use a Marlin lever action in a former French colony in Africa the 444 or 450 would be better than a 45-70 because it is an old military cartridge and such cartridges are illegal in old Frecnh colonies.

VBR,

Ted Gorsline

Good round I would prefer a 45/70 .444 aint no ego trip but .404's are

I had a .444 marlin lever-action for a couple of years and wasn't too impressed with it, although it gave me some nice memories, like my first moose etc.

The only hunting bullets available for it were the 265 gr Hornady Interlocks and although I loaded them to significantly lesser speed than the factory ammo, they were too soft for even smaller European moose, which I hunted with it.

Finally sold it and got myself a short-barreled Win 1895 in .45-70 and that is a much better gun for any larger game in Europe, thanks to the greater bullet weight, - diameter and selection around here.

quote:

Originally posted by JTH:
I had a .444 marlin lever-action for a couple of years and wasn't too impressed with it, although it gave me some nice memories, like my first moose etc.

The only hunting bullets available for it were the 265 gr Hornady Interlocks and although I loaded them to significantly lesser speed than the factory ammo, they were too soft for even smaller European moose, which I hunted with it.

Finally sold it and got myself a short-barreled Win 1895 in .45-70 and that is a much better gun for any larger game in Europe, thanks to the greater bullet weight, - diameter and selection around here.

Speer has a 300gr bullet that works in the Marlin and though I've seen others use them
I've never tried. I will comment that at 200yards the speer 300's do make round holes in the target. (I've watched others shoot them.

Personally when my brother burns up the 200 or so loaded rounds with 265 Hornady's, I will only load 250gr Noslers for him.
If there is something in North America you can't kill with a 250gr partition out of a 444Marlin I've never heard of it.

But then again you can say the same thing of a 30-06 and maxed handloads with 165 Barnes TSX's

AllanD

This argument is so tired.

Speer makes a copper plated unicore in 300 grains.

There are multiple hardcast available over 300 grains.

Lots of loads are availible for accurate plinking to blowing big holes in just about anything that walks.

My Timber Carbine with XS ghost ring sights, at just over 5 pounds, is a joy to carry and shoot off-hand.

For usefull information and loads, check out beartooth bullet's website.

Yes, I know there are plenty of better bullets and ammo for the .444 available nowadays (Buffalo Bore etc.) but I won't bother with them anymore, since I sold my Marlin years ago and I'm perfectly happy with my .45-70.

The Winchester is also a lot better gun IMHO and it doesn't have a tubular magazine, which I always found very annoying. But to each his own

We all may have missed the reason why Marlin brought out the .444. It was hyped as a brush gun similar to the 45-70 but with higher velocity than the old round. The gun was sold as a good Whitetail and Black Bear caliber, which it is. Its short coming was the 240 grn pistol bullets it was loaded with at that time, and the fact that 300 grainers took up too much case space ( Winchesters problem manifested in another caliber). Todays powders and bullets make it better than it ever was. Most people know there is no such thing as a brush gun unless youv'e managed to find a spare 37 m.m. with a good stock on it. Marketing is everything in the gun/hunting world. It has and will continue to do what it was designed to do bring down medium sized game a close woods ranges. It will never have the versitility and power the 45-70 has, it never was designed to do that. Charlie

I've got a big Bore 94 in 444: I bought it because it fit me better than the Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun (stainless)I was also looking at. Cheaper too, and a thinner profile to wrap my hands around. I've never really shot anything serious with it, other than a few cows at butchering time. I have loaded it up very low with 240 grain handgun bullets and shot gophers and rabbits too. Pretty fun.

Its also very nice to pack in the bush for elk, moose and whitetails.

I really got sick of the safety sticking out of the side of the receiver that constantly got pushed in accidently when I was going to fire. Something happened to it though; the problem just kind of disappeared...

That being all said, if they would have had the Big Bore in 45-70, I'd have bought that instead. Just plain more of everything when you get to 45 caliber.

I have both. An older second hand marlin 444, and a 1895 45/70 that I bought new. I bought a bunch of old Remington 444 ammo that was marked $5.00 a box. It was the 240 grain loading. It will knock a hole all the way through a 5 inch oak limb, and go on it's way. However, I hunt hogs and deer with several rifles (30-06, 270, 358 win, 308), but the big bucks always show up when I have the 45/70. Hogs have fallen to all the others, and some smaller does and bucks. But the 45/70 marlin is my lucky rifle. So I don't fight it. I have the 300 grain factory load zeroed at 150 yards (150 yard range). The 300 grain hollow point and the partition seem to shoot to about the same aimpoint. I killed a big buck last november at about 30-40 yards. I think the hollowpoint broke up too much at that range, but they are a lot cheaper.

I also have a ruger number one in 45/70, and it actually shoots much better than the marlin. But nothing worth shooting shows up when I have it with me. I just don't fight it.

So if you have a marlin 444 and it is your luck rifle, don't fight it just enjoy.

I don't think there truly is a nitch for it, poor SD, no velocity either. I'd rather have a Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Mag or .45 LC. Not much problem killing 100 yard deer with one of those and more fun than a .444.

A 300 grain hardcast at 2200+ fps blows a 3" hole through any hog.

If it had better SD and velocity, would that be a 5" hole?



Has this gotten ridiculous yet?

I like my .444 single shot, shoots great and does a great job in the woods. I also have a 45-70 like it too. as well as my .376 steyr and .35 Whelen What were talking about??? I love them all!!!!!bill439

Kind of like the 300 Savage. Not really anything wrong with it. Shoot it if you've got it.

Bullet economy:

It is an excellent case to form 450 Mongo from; heh, heh.

If I bought my first Blackhawk in .44 instead of .45, I would have likely gotten an encore in .444 with more twist and plenty of freebore. Seating those heavies out long would let the case do its part. I guess I could have satisfied my obsolete military cartridge thing by paper-patching my cast bullets and loading them into a .43 Mauser...

As it is, I have Trapper and two Blackhawks in 45 Colt (one a convertible that also shoots 45ACP) and a couple of 45-70s. I have two bullet moulds and i patch my 300 grainers to plink with the 45-70. Hmmm, Bottle necked black powder looks interesting, i may have to aquire a 450 Martini-Henry....