500grains' elephant cadaver shooting:
How can this be a uniform test medium from shot to shot to compare several bullets in one animal?

In the Iron Buffalo, the GSC FN and The North Fork FP solids are uniformly equal and score a 10. The North Fork Cup Point scores an 8, on the Iron Buffalo scale of relative penetration. At least the Iron Buffalo is consistent, uniform, from shot to shot. Each shot gets entirely new plywood boards, 4 new layers of truck innertube for entry port "skin," and a fresh bag of water for each compartment. Yes, even fresh water for each shot.

500grains' proposed 10 shots per elephant, same bullet and velocity with given twist, one elephant for each twist rate, is making more sense.

Then the average for ten shots at each twist rate may begin to tell if there is any significant difference caused by twist. The Iron buffalo says no. Penetration is determined by nose shape and weight of solid in the Iron Buffalo, where twists of 10" to 18" make no difference, and velocities of 2100 to 2700 fps penetrate the same: faster FN solids just produce greater wounding effects in the first third of the penetration.

A dead elephant's tissues will have different consistency than a live one.

Each shot has a different path of resistance, in the dead elephant, and each shot alters the impact medium to be encountered by subsequent bullets.

But 10 shots per elephant will provide similar alterations along the way, so results will be similarly progressively buggered for each test string, thus comparable, as long as 500grains does a comparable job of bugggering each elephant 10 times.

So, 500grains, how will you place 10 shots in each of the elephants, along what path, from stem to stern or stern to stem, and in what pattern? How about this grid (x = bullet hole):

x x x
x x x
x x x

A square grid for 9 shots, and then the tenth shot into the center of the mass mess?

Oupa Gerard,
Congratulations to Mom, Dad, Grandparents. Third generation GSC! A "Grand Son Connor" sort of "GSC" to boot. Beautiful baby boy.

.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
500grains' elephant cadaver shooting:
How can this be a uniform test medium from shot to shot to compare several bullets in one animal?

It is definitely not a uniform test medium. So only gross differences or differences that sustain themselves over a multi-shot average tempt me to draw any conclusions. So for example, when I saw a FN solid penetration 72" on a body shot, but a Nosler ballistic tip only went 5", I felt that I could reach a conclusion on that one.

Also, when the .505 Gibbs keeps turning up total penetration through an ele head and into the body of 52 to 55", while the .375 H&H is giving me something in the mid 30's over several shots, I feel I can also reach a relatively reliable conclusion.

ALF,
I propose development of an "Elephant Open MRI" (EOMRI) to be trucked along with 500grains for the penetration-twist testing. The imaging artifact produced by the copper FN solid slugs will really light up on the scans, locating them instantly on a total body scan of the elephant.

Also, the precise bullet path and wound characteristics with subtle tissue density changes can be followed by a scan before and after each shot: an initial dead elephant MRI and one after each subsequent shot.

You can do separate series on "Skull Shots" and "Portuguese Heart Shots."

That would be a good start.

Until then, my approximation which is absolutely uniform from shot to shot: Iron Buffalo

Elephant skull and axial neck: 1" plywood to 7" water
Elephant or buffalo body: 1/2" plywood to 7.5" water

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
How about this grid (x = bullet hole):

x x x
x x x
x x x

The grid would probably be rectangular rather than square to space the shots out as much as reasonably possible. Plus and X in the bum.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
How about this grid (x = bullet hole):

x x x
x x x
x x x

The grid would probably be rectangular rather than square to space the shots out as much as reasonably possible. Plus and X in the bum.

That sounds like a plan that should provide some useful information.

But what a chore to track and find the bullets!

/

ALF!

Good luck and have fun.

465H&H

quote:

I propose development of an "Elephant Open MRI" (EOMRI) to be trucked along with 500grains for the penetration-twist testing.

You Americans are scary people. Don't you do anything on a small scale?

Oupa Gerard,
Where is the tongue-in-cheek emoticon when you need one?

Cheaper and easier to fund a one-shot-per-live-elephant series of bullet testing for thousands of shots, than to develop an EOMRI.

Good luck to Alf.

Alf said -

"Do you want us the believe that this is the way it is because you reported something you observed under uncontrolled circumstances in African hunter Well I' ll be damned."

If Alf kills a buffalo, its a pitty the results wont mean anything.

Andy

(no comment on twist, directly)

I am certain this will get torn apart, and that's cool. I just ask that you tell me where the logic fails.


Was talking with John on the penetration of the bridger solids, and we are wonder if the hypersonic shockwave infront of the nose of the bullet (not EXACTLY nobert's finding) has something to do with penetration.

gross physical discussion -
That is, with a large flat meplat, on game, does one notice a larger area where the hair is blown off?


Why discuss hypersonic air? (please read, it DOES cover bullets)
wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave

quote:

Detached shock on a supersonic body (see also bow shock)
Such a shock occurs about a supersonic body that is too blunt for the shock to attach to the tip.
Examples: Space return vehicles (Apollo, Space shuttle), bullets, the boundary of a magnetosphere
These shocks are curved, and form a small distance in front of the body. Directly in front of the body, they stand at 90 degrees to the oncoming flow, and then curve around the body. Detached shocks allow the same type of analytic calculations as for the attached shock, for the flow near the shock. They are a topic of continuing interest, because the rules governing the shock's distance ahead of the blunt body are complicated, and are a function of the body's shape. Additionally, the shock standoff distance varies drastically with the temperature for a non-ideal gas, causing large differences in the heat transfer to the thermal protection system of the vehicle. See the extended discussion on this topic at Atmospheric reentry. These follow the "strong-shock" solutions of the analytic equations, meaning that for some oblique shocks very close to the deflection angle limit, the downstream Mach number is subsonic.

If the Amorphous solids of tissue (Alf, you meant Amorphous solid, right?) is placed into an (semi) organized movement of Dispersion from the point of impact by the bow wave, then YES a bullet will penetrate deeper, as the tissues are firstly set in motion (no matter how little) by the impact of the sonic wave (sort of nobert's supercavitation) then when the bullet hits, it has LESS work to do, at least for the first bit...


But, alas, this is (nearly) totally a function of speed, not twist, assuming the bullet is stablized in air, as this is work "pushed" infront of the bullet.

This effect does not happen in pointy bullets

I hope that JPK will not mind if I place here an excerpt from his elephant hunting report:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

The double rifle is a Marcel Thys sidelock in 458wm. Loads were either 500gr Woodleigh solids at an avg of 2135fps or 450gr North Fork Flatnose solids at 2190fps. Both loads worked very well, but the North Forks were fantasic. Penetration was out of this world and there was no noticeable loss of impact effect - as evidenced by stopping the chargeing cow with a too low frontal brain shot. Accuracy with this load is excellent as well.

North Fork penetration examples:
1. 52" and out between the shoulder blades on a frontal brain shot.
2. In the chest and lost near the pelvis, possibly into a rear leg on an insurance shot into the heart from the front.
3. 63" and out on an insurance shot - through a foreleg and into the chest and out the back between the shoulder blades.
4. End to end on a buff, in the rear and out the top of the neck and back into the rear of the head and out the boss.
5. 60" and recovered in the rear of the shoulder on a frontal brain shot - but this one curved a bit toward the end of its journey.

Penetration of my North Fork load surpassed the penetration of Richard Tabor's 500gr Woodleighs at 2250 from his 470. We got 52" [TYPO??]for his load where I got 52" and out. My Woodleighs were running about 32" of penetration on brainshots.