Fellas, I pretty much never ask for help,ecspecially in panic mode when it comes to a gun,but this time I must. Have a chance at an early 80's whitworth express 458, mint shape,low bucks. I cannot find jack in the way of info. Are these things crap,quality? Any knowledge please in quick time cause its going fast.

Go to the top of this page and look for "find." Click on it, go to advance search, and type "Whitworth Mausers." This will bring up quite a few articles that have been discussed over a good period of time. BTW, if it is as you say, "mint and low bucks," I'd pick it up. The Whitworth's were originally put together in England and imported by Interarms in Virginia.

In general people on this board love them. I have one, and it, and every other Whitworth I have ever handled, is pretty crude. With a little work it will likely be serviceable. If it si cheap as you say, then you can pick it up and have it slicked up and made right.

Personally I'm a believer....They can be turned into a lot of good calibers.....and including the long cartridges like the Lott etc...

Regardless of Mark's comments, the TRUE Whitworth is not a bad rifle in any way, and are value for money, even if you had to pay NEW price! There is a big difference between the Zestava actioned Interarms Alaskan rifles some call Whitworth! These two rifles are as different as night, and Day! I have two Whiteworth rifles,and have owned others! One in a synthetic stock for Alaska, and one in the wood for Africa, both chambered for 375H&H. I've had both for 20 yrs, and I'll just say, they are NOT FOR SALE.

If the rifle you are looking at is a Whitworth African Express, stamped Mannchester England,on the left side of the the action, and stamped Whitworth in an oval on top of the reciever ring, and you can get it for the right price, I'd grab it. In fact if you decide against it, let me know, I'll buy it myself!

They work fine as is, but the real changes that are needed to make it top of the line, is a Mod 70 type safety, and a timmney trigger. The 458 can be turned into a 458 LOTT with little expenditure of funds!

I was able to get a "mint" Whitworth African Express 375 H&H this year. Grab it and hang on tight to it!

Good Hunting,

Bob

charger,
i have yet to see a whitworth i didn't want to buy. if you pass, please let me know, as it'll become a lott in about a week!!!

excellent mauser action, in fact, aside from the detractors, i don't believe ANY milsurp can be brought to the same level of finish for what you would pay for entire whitworth... just a fact, nothing to argue about... what i am saying is, if you can get one for 500 bucks, and it feeds, is nicely polished, have a safety, doesn't have to be ground OR HEAT TREATED, bolt bent for clearance, and a decent trigger installed, well, you can't take a $200 1909 and "get there" from here.

in my opinion, a mark x, or even a daly, is financially the superior starting place for building a mauser custom rifle, as compared to a $75 vz-24 or a $200 1909

jeffe

I had one in .458 and really liked it after one problem was solved. I took it to the range and fired a couple of rounds through it. I then loaded the magazine and shot it. At the first shot the floor plate opened and spilled the remaining cartridges on the ground. I thought it was because I didn't close it securely, but it happened almost every time. A few minutes and it was fixed. If the price is right, I don't think I would pass on it.

Well as you fellas might already know. I'm from canaduh. The guns not been fired,and the price in our roman $ would work out to 625-650 USD

That's a decent price for a good, servicable rifle. I have several. They all feed, and they're accurate. The recoil pads tend to get hard with age. If this is the case on the rifle you're looking at, you might want to change to a newer Decelerator.

The only thing missing is the front sight hood. Anybody got one? I'd like to keep it original

I'm missing a barrel band. Wanna trade? LOL!

I like my 375 Whitworth It is a very nice rifle!

A nice carrying rifle for recoil proof fellow.

Rusty, Those were Uncle Mikes bands, did you contact them? I will look around the shop, I replaced a couple with NECG bands, but it was a while back.

Update for Rusty, I found a takeoff from a .375, but, someone had narrowed it to .250 width, it runs approx .775- .780 I.D and has the detent milled for the ball to engage in. Its complete and does not look bad, you can have it for free. Lee.

Commin RUST, I need a hood

Check with Charles Daly about the hood; it should be the same as the Whitworth. The guy on eBay selling Chas Daly parts might have one too.

Lee440,
Please contact me directly please at rkmojo@aol.com

Charger, I wish I could help you sir. I know the frustration of trying to find a past for our old Whitworths.

I doubt that there is a better buy on the market today than the Whitworth...Now I am not talking the Mark 10 in big bores as there is considerably difference in fit and finish between the two, and folks have a bad habit of calling the Mark 10 a whitworth..Not so, just the same action...

The true Whitworth Express had a slim European walnut stock with egg cheek piece, ebony foreend tip, and 3 leaf rear sight etc. fit and finish is usually very good for a factory rifle..

Also the are going up up up in value and are a solid investment..

I have never seen one that was not superbly accurate, I think they used excellent barrels in them, but even the cheaper mark 10s have always shot well for the most part.

Well I bought it. It's in transit. I'll post a pic on this post next week when I get it. Thanks for advice all.

Rays' right about the fit & finish issue but hard parts like hoods are the same. Don't waste a bunch of time or money (same thing in the real world) hunting up a genuine "Whitworth" hood when the Chas Daly is the same damn part.

If you want pretty instead of factory get an NECG hood and make it fit.

The front ramp on my Whitworth is a Williams. Order the hood from Brownell's.

Congrats on your acquistition!!

Bob

Here is mine.....

I was referring to the "real" "English" WHitworths from the '80s. I have never seen one with good wood to metal fit, many had screws buggered or cross threaded, off-center scope base holes, and many of them have ejection issues due to the extractor, etc. but as i said in my original post, I have had one since the '80s and they are not so bad compared to what else is out there in that price range. If it is a good price get it.

I don't understand why peopel jump on the bash-WInchester, Remington, Ruger bandwagon, but god-frobid you say an unkind word about Whitworth. THis guy asked for opinions and I gave him mine. THe last time some one asked about Whitworths on this board and I posted my experience, I was slammed for speaking my mind. Several people PM'd me telling me they got the same treatment they posted their opinions of the Whitworth as well. THey had experienced the same issues as I had. I just think it is odd that folks get their panties in a wad over the Whitworth for some reason. Even back in Reagan's second term, it was a cheap gun (or else I never could have bought it back then!)

I read a story about Interarms years ago and I understood that the Manchester address was warehousing/offices for their extensive arms trading in Europe and the mid-east. I have had 4 differant Whitworths and modified several through the years and I have never seen one with British proofmarks on them. The Brits are extremely strict about this. I have two Steyr, .256 mannlichers, one a Army&Navy, the other a John Mcpherson, that were commonly imported as barrelled actions and stocked, sighted and regulated by most of the major English builders at the time. They both have Austrian and Birmingham proofs. I believe the Whitworths were assembled in Yugoslavia along with the regular MK X's. I have seen many sellers trying to pass them off as English guns, but unless someone has some real evidence, I don't believe this to be true. This is not written to start a flame, I'd just like to see hard evidence! Lee.

Huntingcat is correct about the ramp being a Williams and the hoods from Brownells are the correct ones. They also fly off easily under recoil and are knocked off even easier. Many of the european ramps have a detent/plunger that stops this. Thats why you find most of the Whitworths with no hood!

Alternate buy could be Parker-Hale 'African' built on Spanish 'Santa Barbara' action.

No worries about a flame here LEE440. My main interest is a solid ,functioning 458 mag for the right price. Apart from that it could be made on the moon by monkeys for all I care. If it puts animals down,and dont say japan it goes in my vault

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I have had 4 differant Whitworths and modified several through the years and I have never seen one with British proofmarks on them. The Brits are extremely strict about this. I have two Steyr, .256 mannlichers, one a Army&Navy, the other a John Mcpherson, that were commonly imported as barrelled actions and stocked, sighted and regulated by most of the major English builders at the time. They both have Austrian and Birmingham proofs. I have seen many sellers trying to pass them off as English guns, but unless someone has some real evidence, I don't believe this to be true. Lee.

LEE, please excuse me for abreviateing your post, but it was done only for the purpose of brevity, not to change what you had to say!

The british may have proofed many bolt rifles, but that doesn't make them British rifles! The only Britt bolt rifle that can be claimed as a true British rifle are the Junk Enfields, all others were bought as barreled actions, or as actions, and barrels seperatly, and put together, and stocked in Engalnd! Some of the barreled actions were American Remington Enfields,but the actions, for the most part, are Mauser, and the barrels Krupp. This is not limited to bolt rifles, either, where barrels are concerned, most of the barrel sets on double rifle stamped with the verious Britt house names, were made by Krupp, which is German.

The Whitworth Express rifles are working rifles, but are as British as any bolt Mauser ever to come out of England! Make no mistake the Inderarms MK X actioned rifles are not the same as the Whitworth. The MK X actioned Interarms rifles were called the ALASKAN in the 7MM through 458 Win Mag, and were barreled, and stocked in the USA, on MK X actions from Zestava. The fit and finish is not the same, on the Alaskan, or on the small chambered rifles from Interarms, as the Whitworth. This is not to say the Whitworth is a rival of any well made, custom Mauser, but some of the Britt, FIELD GRADE Mauser rifles were a lot less finished than the rifle we are discussing here! The Whitworth is not a $6K bolt rifle, but it sure as hell is worth a lot more than the $425 they cost in 1980, and are worth every penny of the $800, to $1K they cost today.

I have two now, both 375H&H, and have owned 7 or 8 others, and have yet to have a problem with any of them, other than the stock, on one of them, warping after 12 days in a downpour while hunting in the Mulchatna Basin of Alaska. A problem that no doubt would have shown it's ugly head on a top H&H Bolt Mauser. Hence, the change to the synthetic stock on that rifle, some 20 yrs ago, and it has been in Alaska every yr since, with out problem.

I'm not, in any way, saying that there are those who have not had problems with Whitworth Express rifles, And would never tell anyone they don't have the right to post their experience with any rifle made anyplace. I do, however, have the right to express my findings on this subject, of which I have a quanity of experience on this particuler rifle, in the field, over a considerable amount of time!

The man simply asked if these rifles are junk, and the answer to that question is "NO!" they are not junk, and there is difinently a difference between the Whitworth, and the verious Interarms Alaskan rifles! Is it perfect? Again the answer is "NO!" but it is not the what some here have made it out to be. If anyone has had that much trouble with a Whitworth rifle, or for that matter any rifle, he either has incredabily bad luck, or is simply so annal that nothing will sattisfy him. Folks, we are talking about a rifle that origenally cost only $425 US, not a $7000 D'Arcy Echols custom!

PS:

Charger, I have a hood for a Whitworth, and if you will E-mail me your address I'll be more than happy to send it to you free of charge! My E-mail is:

DUGABOY1@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I read a story about Interarms years ago and I understood that the Manchester address was warehousing/offices for their extensive arms trading in Europe and the mid-east. I have had 4 differant Whitworths and modified several through the years and I have never seen one with British proofmarks on them. The Brits are extremely strict about this. I have two Steyr, .256 mannlichers, one a Army&Navy, the other a John Mcpherson, that were commonly imported as barrelled actions and stocked, sighted and regulated by most of the major English builders at the time. They both have Austrian and Birmingham proofs. I believe the Whitworths were assembled in Yugoslavia along with the regular MK X's. I have seen many sellers trying to pass them off as English guns, but unless someone has some real evidence, I don't believe this to be true. This is not written to start a flame, I'd just like to see hard evidence! Lee.

lee; you are absolutely correct.

The "Whitworth","Alaskan","Mark X","Zastava","Charles Daly" and even "Luger" are all the same action.
The difference between any of these stamped actions is quite simply the finish (or lack of)that was put into these rifles once they left the Zastava factory.

The Whitworth name could be a term for a level of finish that a Mark X etc. etc. action would receive if you wanted to be specific with you gunsmith on what you expected to be done to your action/rifle.

The Whitworth stamp is certainly beautiful but to believe that it is something more than what it really is, is just deluding yourself.
At the end of the day, you have a Mark X etc. etc. action that has been properly attended to and a damn fine rifle, but nothing more than probably any gunsmith, stockmaker and a few dollars can do for anybody with any of the above stamped actions.

Mark,
Don't get your shorts in a wad, just because some of us disagreed with you, apparantly you got a bad one, I, on the other hand, have shot a lot of the Whitworths from that area and never had a bad one....

Keep in mind that Winchester, Remington, Rugers, Mausers all get bashed on these forums, and Whitworth apparantly is no exception as you bashed it, so what, it all comes down to personal choice...

Remember that some folks by a crap rifle, and because they own it, its the best!! and no one else builds a better gun...same with cars, wimmen, horses and dogs...

Ray, The exception to your post is that with your wimmen you HAVE to say she's the best or else. The rest is voluntary braggin'

I was beginning to wonder about finding a hood since Rusty has had such a challenge finding a barrel band. I looked in Brownells last nite and found the Williams sight hood. At about $5, it's hard to go wrong giving it a try.

Would dabbing some locktite in the grooves keep it from flying off on a 375? Any other remedies. I love my Whitworth. It's needed a bit of tweaking, but isn't that half the fun of getting a new gun? Bob

Mix3006, I could not agree with you more. They are all one and the same and with a little polishing and tweaking, one is as good as the other. I have always been a big mauser fan and the Mark X has always been a lot of bang for the buck! The barrels are hammer forged and I have yet to have one that, properly bedded, will not give minute of angle. I guess some of us got off on a tangent about the other details and myths surrounding their origin instead of directly answering the question, my apologies! My comments about British proofs were made to illustrate the fact that if ANY of the work on those rifles had been done in England, They would bear British proofs, period! Origin of parts notwithstanding, if Brits worked it, it had to bear proofmarks. Also not to be contentious, but the P14/17 Enfield action was developed and made in England at the Enfield works. It is as British as it gets, lots of them were manufactured in the U.S. for England when they could not produce enough arms domestically during WW1. As to the "junk" Mark 1 through 5 Enfields, they are anything but! They are acknowledged by many of the worlds experts as one of the finest battle rifles ever produced. They were the fastest bolt rifle to cycle and very reliable under battlefield conditions. They were never meant to be pretty, to take magnum loads or do many of the things we want to do to sporterize one, But they were and are not junk! As far as actions, Yes, most of the English makers used Mauser actions almost exclusively. The Brits and the Germans historically were very close and did much trading togeather. Their royals intermarried and their economies were closely tied. It is not a big surprise that they used german actions, they were the best at the time. Some makers used Krupp steel for barrels, but I would venture to say it was far less common than you would think. Sir Joseph Whitworth(sound familiar?) patented many innovations for producing barrel steel and manufactured barrels that were used on some of the finest guns of the day, including the high grade Parker shotguns made in the U.S. Vickers Ltd. also made high quality barrel steel that was used by many of the big names. I have a modest collection of British sporting rifles and shotguns and have done a fair amount of research on them. My intent is only to give factual credit to them as is their due, not give personal opinions on their quality, which is self-evident. My .02 Lee.

Lee,
my address is
Rusty Knight
1815 Hilton Head Dr.
Missouri city, Texas 77459

Thanks for the offer

quote:

Originally posted by mix3006:
[
lee; you are absolutely correct.

The "Whitworth","Alaskan","Mark X","Zastava","Charles Daly" and even "Luger" are all the same action.
The difference between any of these stamped actions is quite simply the finish (or lack of)that was put into these rifles once they left the Zastava factory.

.

MIX, I agree with both you and Lee, the actions are the same other than finish! The complete rifles are not, however, and the Whitworths where assembeled and stocked in Manchester England! The Interarms Alaskans were finished, and stocked in the USA. The barrels are different, and the sights are aluminum Williams. The barrels are cheap on the Alaskan, and are whippy, while the whitworth barrels are very well made, and every one of the ones I've fired, and those I've seen fired were extremly accurate. This is not always the case with the Alaskan.

The origenal question was not asked about the action, but the whitworth Express RIFLE! A 1909 Mauser military rifle has the same action as a Chick W. custom, but when you ask the value of a Chick, your not asking about the action only, but the rifle! The fact is, and is what was asked, the Whitworth express rifle is worth a lot more than an Interarms Alaskan, or any of their rifles made on the Zestava action! Nobody has ever said the Whitworth was a top of the line rifle! They are simply a decent rifle for the money, and are as rock solid as any Mauser actioned rifle at anywhere nere the price range of $800-$1000.

NOW, I'm through with this!

No Mac, come and sit a while

My point is more geared towards the people that will make a decision on whether or not to buy a rifle built on one of these actions, because after all, isn't the action the heart of a rifle?
The Whitworth rifle is a great thing and if anybody should come across one, buy it.
Barrels and stocks are easily replaced with better quality items, so that shouldn't deter people from buying an action known by another name, I suppose that's all I'm trying to say.
I only buy actions to have rifles built on and select everything else around it, and with the Mark X action, I've got no problems throwing a few thousand famous Aussies at it, to end up with a lovely rifle.

Let's grab our Whitworth flags and head for the door, we'll bid charger goodnight, who's sitting there wondering what the hell happened to his thread!!

Oh no,this is actually OK.Nobody on this forum will ever bitch again about the charger boy gettin out on a tangent. LOL

Lee,
I got the barrel band you sent. Thank you again for your kindness. Since you live so close, let's get together and go to the range sometime.

Best regards,