I've read that a 350 grain is the ideal combo in velocity and shock for lion. Would appreciate hearing some educated opinions from you lion hunters and ballisticians out there.

I'd slug him with a 500 gr Woodleigh RN Weldcore.[URL= ]woodleigh soft[/URL]

Hey Jet!

Well would love to voice my opinion and hear that of others. I have only shot 3 lions way back in 2000. I wish I would have had some more imagination at the time, but it all happened within a few months. I used a Win M70 22 inch barrel and a 400 Swift A frame at 2325 fps. It did a damn good job, hammered two of them to the ground on the spot, the other ran maybe 7-8 yds. A friend of mine shot 1 lion with the same load, down on the spot. So I would say that was a very successful bullet and load for at least 4 lions.

I would consider the new 350 Barnes TSX at the top of the list today, and it is probably what I would use in my 458 B&M (very close to the same case capacity and velocities of the 458 Winchester--except I can do it in a short action 18 inch barrel rifle). Also I think the 400 Woodleigh would do a good job, but it could not be run faster than 2150 fps--it over expands above 2150 fps.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the larger bullets either. In fact I could very easy get along with the 500 Woodleigh at 2150 or so. The Woodleigh would be my choice for 450-500 gr bullets--it is a bit softer than others in that weight.

Great consideration should go to the various North Forks too--350-400 gr bullets-2300-2450 fps or so.

I would not be comfortable with a lesser non premium bullet for this work. The frontal chest muscles are very tough if one had a frontal chest shot.

I like 458 for lion-good bullet, reasonable velocity, I think turns them inside out!

My opinion only.

Michael

I have only shot one Lion.

I shot him frontal chest with my 450/400,
3 1/4" double, with a 400gr Woodleigh Soft at @2200fps.
I quickly fired a second shot, reloaded, then ran to point blank range and put a finisher into his spine.

He never got up after the first shot. I recovered all bullets, perfectly expanded, the final shot exanded a little more than the first two.

I will have to agree with michael458's post, in that I would want a premium bullet.

Lions seem a little tougher in bone and muscle than their body weight would suggest.

If I would have been using my 450 No2 I would have used 480gr Woodleigh bullets, or my 9,3x74R a 286gr Woodleigh.

At velocities from 2050 to 2200fps I doubt if there is a better soft.

In the 458 Win Mag, specifically for Lion, I would thing about a 400gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, a 450gr Swift A Frame, a 400 or 450gr North Fork.

Personally I would not go below 400grains.

Do not think I would use an X bullet either, maybe for cape buff but not for Lion.

I am just old fashioned enough to believe that a big Round Nose or Flat Point hits a little "harder" right from first impact.

If your 458 shoots 500gr bullets then a 500gr Woodleigh Soft would be my choice.

The 480 and 500gr Woodleigh Softs are made the same. This is directly from Woodleigh in a corresondence I had with them.

Hi, I have not shot any lions , but , on this subject , I recieved an e-mail from Geoff MacDonald last week to say that Woodleigh now have their 480 grain .458's in soft and full metal jacket in stock. with the cannelure in the correct place for .458 Win.This would be my choice. I have got some of the soft points and loaded them with from 70 to 74 grains of A.D.I.2206H and will chrono them this weekend.cheers from OZ.

fwiw, the 400gr woodliegh is not the most accurate .458 bullet i have ever used, but it does hammer hogs and deer

I am setting my 458Win Project up with Woodleigh 480grn 458Win bullets for a velocity of 2150 to 2200fps. Ideal for all Dangerous game hunting.

I have shot two lions with a 416 Rigby both were 1 shot kills. I use whatever "soft" that I'm using for buffalo. The first lion was shot at ~25 yards with a 400 grain Barnes X bullet and the second was shot at ~15 yards with a 370 grain Northfork bullet. Both loads had a MV of 2450fps.

Lions aren't tough......the key is to make the 1st shot count (i.e, bullet placement). Lions are very fast (unlike a buffalo) and even a wounded lion can still move pretty fast (making additional follow up shots difficult), so your first shot will be the most important.

I can get 2400fps with a Barnes X out of my 24" barrelled ruger 77 in .458. I have yet to use them on lion, but they hammer bears!

Thanks, everyone. I seem to recall shakari has a very high opinion of Woodleighs, as well.

Since I don't reload for this caliber, I'll be ordering from Larry at Superior. I've had good luck with his stuff before. Think I'll try the 480 Woodleigh for accuracy and take it from there. I have some 450 A Frames loaded up and haven't tested them yet. That's a tougher bullet than the Woodleigh, of course, and should work at 2200. I'll chrono the loads and see what I get.

Advice is much appreciated.

500 grains for penetration,round nose for reliable feeding,soft pure copper jacket and pure lead all combine to deliver the energy when and where it should be delivered.Might be a little too soft for a upclose head shot on a buff,but for lion,I think it would be perfect.

For all cats, the Winchester factory loaded 510 jacketed soft point round nose 458 Win. will "ash can" them.
Rolf Rohwer, PH, used them on over 100 cats. His only problem on cats was with Federal factory.
Sincerely,

Jetdriver,

I hope you go on the cat hunt.

I would sure load the 400 or 450 North Fork bonded soft point.

Which will also do well on anything else that comes your way.

The success of Rolf's 510 grain Winchester Power Point is proof that a bit of frontal area is theraputic!

(And the NF will give you that plus the advantages of a solid base and bit of velocity).

The Winchester is best of all unbonded premium bullets and did VERY well in my tests.

For what its worth I helped conduct a necropsy on a mature lion at a zoo in the 1970's and we used three scalpel blades just to get through his chest.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Virginia Creeper:
For all cats, the Winchester factory loaded 510 jacketed soft point round nose 458 Win. will "ash can" them.
Rolf Rohwer, PH, used them on over 100 cats. His only problem on cats was with Federal factory.
Sincerely,

You are correct.

It may not be well known, but if you do the research, when Winchester originally developed the 458 Winchester Magnum, THEY INTENDED that the 500gr FMJ Solid be used on ALL the BIG game, including Cape Buff.

The 510gr SP was designed for use on Lion [and Leopard follow up by the PH's], and was made as a "Soft", Soft for that reason.

As time wore on some people shot cape buff with the Winchester 510 Soft, and reported it was "too soft", when Remington started loading the 458 Win Mag, they made their Soft a little harder.

Here is another early 458 tid bit. When Joyce Hornady hunted in Africa, the PH he hunted with complained that their Solids were not solid enough.

When he got back home he made his solids, more "solid".

Reports back confirmed that they were "mo better".

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Jetdriver,

I hope you go on the cat hunt.

I would sure load the 400 or 450 North Fork bonded soft point.

Which will also do well on anything else that comes your way.

The success of Rolf's 510 grain Winchester Power Point is proof that a bit of frontal area is theraputic!

(And the NF will give you that plus the advantages of a solid base and bit of velocity).

The Winchester is best of all unbonded premium bullets and did VERY well in my tests.

For what its worth I helped conduct a necropsy on a mature lion at a zoo in the 1970's and we used three scalpel blades just to get through his chest.

Andy

Andy

I will have to agree with you on this issue as well.
Once upon a time I was a butcher, so I have cut a lot of cow meat.
Also I have butchered a lot of game animals, in the USA and in Africa, as I am interested in bullet performance.

I have found that black bear,grizz, and lion "meat" seems denser than "regular game animals".

I have handled griz bear meat, but I have not shot one, I wanted to make that clear.

From the results on the lion, and cape buff I shot with my 450/400 double rifle with 400gr Woodleigh Softs, I would rate lion muscle every bit as tough as cape buff.

A lion is not as big, but their muscle does seem plenty tough.

Something else to think of.

If you are hunting lion, then you are probably doing a 21-day hunt, which means there are a bunch of other animals available on the ticket (some big, some small and some in between).

You need to be prepared (shooting wise) for everything on "your" menu. You end up taking them as they come. I have shot as many as 5 different animals on 1 day. I would recommend taking one "soft" and one "solid" combination (that shoot to the same point of aim) for your heavy rifle. You don't want to be switching bullets around in your gun when it is show time. Your 2nd rifle choice is a whole other discussion.

Having said that, I would pick my "soft" bullet for the buffalo.....this same load will work just fine on the lion. Lions are kind of like a hard rubber ball, but they weigh only about 450lbs (~1/3 the weight of a buffalo) and they don't have as big of bones (as a buffalo).

With airline weight restrictions it is really difficult to take more than two rifles on safari, plus it doesn't take long for your ammo to reach the 11 lb. weight limit.


My final advise to you is.....if you really want to do a lion hunt don't put if off.

MHC

NICE cat.

At 458 Win velocities, baised on my use of my 450 No2 and my 450/400, I find Woodleigh Softs perfect for cape buff and lion.

As well as eland, widdebest,zebra, etc.

The 400gr in the 450/400 works great on the caribou [2]Alaska, and black bear, Montana as well.

NE 450 #2

I would agree with you 100% with a big soft Woodleigh! I have had very excellent results with the 500 Woodleigh at or around 2150 fps in 458 Winchester and 458 B&M. It would be a good choice for 1 bullet for both lion and buff.

The only issue is that if it was strictly lion in pursuit then I would prefer something premium with a bit more velocity which would drop weight to 350 to 400 gr bullets. Although I have not used the 350 Barnes on lion in particular, it does a jam up job on other critters in that size category. Again, 400 Swift did great for me at 2325 fps. I think I would rather hit the lions with a little more velocity myself.

Michael