Loading this round for a moose.griz hunt next two weeks north of Yukon on the Melozitna river.
Goal is 404 Jeffery or .416 Rem performance. Using 360 grn Norhforks (.411), and 84 grns R-15. I wanted to hit 2,500 feet. Shot 80 through 86 grains. At 86 the recoil was more than I wanted. Settled on 84 using data from Pierre van der Walts Dangerous Game rifle book. Luckily found a rifle range regular with a Doppler chronograph, and got 2,494 average for three. I've owned and shot No.1's since the first year they were offered and always had a sweet spot for them.

That should hit with authority. Is your Ruger No.1 a .450/.400 NE 3"?

If it is a factory chambering by Ruger, it is the 3" version, which is of course superior in every way to the me-too 3-1/4" version
that uses the thinner-rimmed brass like the old BPE cartridges.
Genius Jackman did it right when he designed the .400 S. Jeffery from scratch with thicker brass.
In the beginning, 1898, there was no confusion of the 3-Inch version with the 3-1/4" version.
It has only been called the 450/400 NE 3-Inch "lately."
In the beginning it was the ".400 S. Jeffery."
The 3-1/4", thin-rimmed version came later, in a failed attempt to one-up the .400 S. Jeffery.








Rip ...

Well, IIRC the .450/.400 was Elmer Keith's favorite big-bear calibre, though his was a db. Still, if you're revving it up to that extent, with luck one shot will be more than enough.

Patrick,

Are you using any filler with that load?

Thanks
Mark

Patrick, I found the recoil an issue in the factory Number 1 as well, but I'll admit to not liking much more than a 9,3X62 dishes out. That load should perform extremely well for your purposes. Good luck and please report!

A 360gr bullet at 2500 fps is impressive. Pressure would be through the roof! Hornady .450/.400 NE 3" ammo lists a 400gr bullet at 2050 fps (24" barrel). No SAAMI/ANSI Z299.4 spec's for this round. CIP lists maximum average pressure as 2800 bar or 40,610 psi.

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public





https://www.hornady.com/ammuni...-400-gr-dgx#!/#specs

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/r...express-rifle-review

quote:

In the beginning it was the ".400 S. Jeffery."
The 3-1/4", thin-rimmed version came later, in a failed attempt to one-up the .400 S. Jeffery.

I'm not so sure of that.
There is even conjecture of whether the 450/400 3-1/4" NE may have even emerged before the 450NE.

Jeffery came up with the S due to the 3-1/4" full nitro version suffering from case sticking (long parallel neck) and the subsequent extraction issues from the thin rimmed case.

Shorten the neck and thicken the rim and, voila! The 400 Jeffery is born.

Huvius would be correct.

As I have read it, the .450 NE 3-1/4" (thin rim) version was the first successful full Nitro Express loading of the old, BPE cartridges of which there were many,
including a 450/400 BPE 3-1/4".
The .400 S. Jeffery (thick rim, 3-inch case length) was marketed in the same year as the .450 NE 3-1/4" (thin rim), 1898.
Those two were the first two successful true Nitro Express loadings.
All the others existing in 1898 were BPE cases playing around with becoming true NE loadings.
They were not successful at making the transition to other Nitro Express loadings until after the first two paved the way.
The .400 S. Jeffery improved upon the brass of the .450 NE 3-1/4", necked it down, shortened it, and the .400 S. Jeffery had a thicker head construction too, more than just a thicker rim.

Rip ...

There are Kynoch charts that list full cordite loads they offered and in one I see that the 450/400 3-1/4" is listed but no mention of the Jeffery 400 because it didn't exist yet.
Jeffery himself wrote to the Field that thicker rims for cordite cartridges would preclude anybody using them in rifles intended for black powder.
His work with the 3-1/4" case and 50gr cordite load in 1897 led to his improvements.
In 1898, Jeffery made the first 3" 400 noted in the Jeffery ledger as a rifle with the "new case" with a charge of 60grs cordite, later backed off to 55grs.
Also of note is that the original experimental load Jeffery used in the 3-1/4" case used a 370gr bullet with 49grs cordite which equaled the velocity of the black powder load with a 270gr bullet but at a lower pressure!


Back to the OP, your Ruger should be just perfect for your hunt.
Makes me want to take mine out for a session!

Have one; one of my favorite calibers. I put a merc brake in it as the thin butt of the #1 hits slightly sharply; not heavy recoil by any standard though.

Regarding pressure, it is certainly too high for a double rifle. Case capacity is 99.99 the same as the 404 Jeffery therefore I'm using 404 data. There is no pressure tested data for the 360 Northfork, but plenty for 400 grain and 350 grain in the 404. I sure I'm at modest pressures for my use in a Ruger No. 1, and the ammo is labeled, "Ruger No. 1 Only" for that use.
I'm not using fillers as this load is at about 85%. Tilted up or down doesn't seem to matter.
Thanks for the comments.

Interesting. By comparison 404 Jeffery (aka 404 Rimless NE aka 10.75 x 73mm) maximum average pressure as specified by CIP is about 30% higher.

This is an excerpt from Pierre van der Walt's excellent work, African Dangerous Game Cartridges
I think he got it very close to right-on for this cartridge. A minor semantic issue only is claimed by me.
Quoted from the book, pp. 218-219:
***********************************************************************************************************************************************
*.450/400 Nitro Express 3" (Jeffery)*

Cartridge History
The history of the .450/400 Nitro Express 3" Jeffery starts with the .450/400 Magnum Nitro Express 3-1/4" first listed in Kynoch's 1884 catalogue. That cartridge was the standard .450 NE 3-1/4" necked down to .409" calibre,
(Not quite, they were both the old BP cartridges, not Nitro Express cartridges in 1884! Just a little snafu with the nomenclature, since smokeless powder, flake or Cordite, and NITRO EXPRESS loads had not yet arrived.
Pierre surely means that these two aboriginal BP, BPE, and NFBPE cases were simply identical in their case designs to the later NE cartridges, the .450/400 NE 3-1/4" and its forerunner, the .450 NE 3-1/4".)
but initially suffered from the fact that the original black powder case's walls were too thin to work reliably with the nitro loads that generated higher pressures.

Just as this very problem spawned Eley's .450 No.2 cartridge, it also spawned [bJeffery's .450/400 Nitro Express 3". Designed with thicker case walls to handle the higher nitro pressures, its date of birth is often claimed as 1896, but the most respected authorities such as Hoyem and Barnes dispute that, while Datig offers no date or explanation. Although introduction actually took place in 1987, it is not impossible that work on the design started a year earlier.[/b]

Let's look into the events which led to its introduction. Rigby's .450 NE 3-1/4" was the first medium bore (old British classification) big game cartridge for use in double and Farquharson falling block rifles loaded with the then new British smokeless propellant Cordite. Cordite, unfortunately did not prove as perfect as had been hoped for by its developers. Early results were mixed because the steels of the day were hardly up to the new pressure levels generated. Many a bulged barrel and/or destroyed action resulted from excessive pressures. Due to these problems, black powder express rifles remained in use well into the 1900's. It was not until about 1897-1900 that the British achieved success with their early large bore nitro cartridges. The three most popular were Rigby's .450 NE 3-1/4", followed closely by Jeffery's .450/400 NE 3" and later the .500 NE 3". Jeffery's .600 Nitro Express also gained some following. When Jeffery designed his .450/400 NE 3", he based it on the 1/4" longer Rigby .450 Bore. Unlike the other two .450/400 cartridges which started off as black powder cartridges, the .400 S Jeffery as it is also known, was designed from the outset to work with nitro propellants.

The .450/400 NE 3" entry was made in the Jeffery ledger on the 8 November 1897 under the designation .400S for a rifle with serial number 5766. The letter 'S', inred ink, denoted its smokeless propellant. Like Jeffery was wont to do with cartridges, the .450/400 NE 3" was not kept as a proprietary cartridge, but released to the trade, which accounts for its widespread use and popularity.

The .450/400x3" struck a nice balance between bullet weight and the velocity considered suitable for a wide range of game and consequently went on to become a greatly admired African cartridge; not only because of availability, but because of its performance as well.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************

More from Crag Boddington in the A-Square BOOK, ANY SHOT YOU WANT p.502, agrees very well with van der Walt:
*********************************************************************************************************************************************
.450/.400 N.E. (3")

The two versions of the .450/.400, the 3-inch and the 3-1/4-inch, are not interchangeable, although in power they are indistinguishable. The .450/.400 N.E. (3"), also called the .400 Jeffery, was developed by Jeffery around 1896. It was probably the first large bore cartridge specifically designed for use with the higher pressures produced by smokeless powder. The 3-1/4-inch version was essentially a blackpowder case, and the weaker, thinner, rolled brass cases were reported to cause sticky extraction with cordite powder, especially in tropical climates. Stronger drawn cases quickly solved the problem, but by then the .450/.400 N.E. (3") was already a reality.

Jeffery indeed shortened the case on their version, but that's not the only change. The Jeffery version had a stronger, heavier case and a much thicker rim -- .060-inch vice .040. These changes make the two cartridges, although ballistically almost identical, absolutely non-interchangeable ...

... Collectively, the two versions of the .450/.400 were almost certainly the most common of all the "over-.40" Nitro Express cartridges, and the 3" version was probably more popular than the longer case.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************

Craig may have been a bit exuberant in his imaginings of the rolled case .450/.400 N.E. 3-1/4" deficiencies?

However, George A. Hoyem says of the .450/.400-3-1/4", on page 115 of THE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION VOLUME III (BRITISH SPORTING CARTRIDGES):
*******************************************************************************************************************************************
This long cartridge is based on the .450-3-1/4" necked to the smaller caliber. It does not exist in the rolled case Boxer style, but evidently appeared during the 1880s. It is illustrated in the Kynoch 1884 catalog. The black powder charge was 110 grains, bullet 230 grains in express form with copper-tube hollow point, or 255-grain solid lead. In the nitro-for-black form, the charge was 40 grains of smokeless powder with a 270-grain metal-based bullet. This cartridge carried over into the nitro era Yes, AFTER THE .400 S. JEFFERY 3-Inch PIONEERED THE WAY, the 3-1/4-Inch BP brass was also strengthened, though it retained the thin rim in the 3-1/4"version!
and was available with 60 grains of smokeless and a 400-grain jacketed bullet of various constructions. It was widely used by various makers in all forms for the double rifle.
******************************************************************************************************************************************

I rest my case, the .400 S. Jeffery case, aka the 450/400 NE 3-Inch.

Rip ...

RIP, I think we agree on most of that but you and Pierre are making the mistake in assuming that the rifle #5766 was a 3" case based on the 'S' in the ledger.

"The .450/400 NE 3" entry was made in the Jeffery ledger on the 8 November 1897 under the designation .400S for a rifle with serial number 5766. The letter 'S', inred ink, denoted its smokeless propellant."

The 'S' does denote smokeless propellant (as mentioned above)but not necessarily the case used.

I mention that Jeffery's own writing explains his experimentation with the 3-1/4" case as a full nitro round (which I firmly believe #5766 was) and that rifle #5815 was in fact the first 3" rifle made, clearly identified as using the "New Case" in the ledger.

I'm going to go with what came directly from the horse's mouth.

Also, the Kynoch lists the 450/400 Magnum NE with a 60gr cordite charge in 1901 but doesn't catalog the 3" Jeffery version until 1903.
Now, that's not to say it didn't exist until 1902 - we know it did of course - but its absence from catalogs and price lists that include the 3-1/4"NE is interesting.
Maybe Jeffery was the sole supplier of the 3" ammunition themselves before it was widely adopted by the trade.

Ken Howell's designing and forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES for rifles and handguns
pp. 382--385

The only one shown with a date is the first one, the drawn brass BP case dating prior to use of smokeless/Cordite, 1884:

.450-.400 Express (Kynoch drawing, 1884):
rim thickness = 0.0420"
rim diameter = 0.6250"
base diameter (above the rim) = 0.5480"
base to shoulder = 2.1200"
shoulder diameter = 0.4820"
neck-2 diameter = 0.4340"
brass case length = 3.2500"
no shoulder angle specified

Then from the Nitro Express era when both the 3-Inch .400 (Jeffery) and the 3.25-Inch .450 (Rigby) cartridges were simultaneously developed first:
The 3.25-Inch .400 full nitro version attempted to aggrandize itself versus the forerunner .400 3-Inch version
by adding the "Magnum" to its "Nitro Express" designation,
or, more logically, stating the "3-1/4-Inch" ahead of the "Nitro Express" designation and leaving off the "Magnum."

.450-.400 Magnum Nitro Express 3-1/4-Inch (Birmingham Proof House):
rim thickness = 0.0420"
rim diameter = 0.6240"
base diameter = 0.5450
base to shoulder = 2.0000"
shoulder diameter = 0.4980"
neck-2 diameter = 0.4350"
brass case length = 3.2500"
no shoulder angle specified

.450-.400 Magnum Nitro Express 3-1/4-Inch (CIP maximums):
rim thickness = 0.0421"
rim diameter = 0.6240"
base diameter = 0.5449"
base to shoulder = 2.0000"
shoulder diameter = 0.4980"
brass case length = 3.2500"
neck-2 diameter = 0.4350"
shoulder semi-angle specified = 5*37'16"

.450-.400 3-1/4-Inch Nitro Express (ICI Metals Ltd dwg):
rim thickness = 0.0420"
rim diameter = 0.6240"
base diameter = 0.5450"
base to shoulder = 2.0000"
shoulder diameter = 0.4980"
brass case length = 3.2500"
neck-2 diameter = 0.4350"
shoulder semi-angle specified = 5*00'00"

Versus the Nitro Express era drawings of the truly pioneering 3-Inch version which was developed prior to a full nitro 3.25" .400:

.450-.400 Nitro Express 3-Inch (Birmingham Proof House):
rim thickness = 0.0650" (55% thicker than the BP-case rim thickness maintained by all the 3.25-Inch versions)
rim diameter = 0.6250" (same as the BP-case rim diameter, 0.0010" greater than all the NE 3.25-Inch versions)
base diameter = 0.5480"
base to shoulder = 2.100" (harkens more toward the BP-case dimension of 2.120", fully longer by 0.1000" than all the NE 3.25-Inch versions)
shoulder diameter = 0.5210" (much thicker brass overall, greater base diameter, and less taper of case body than all the 3.25" versions)
brass case length = 3.000" (The most obvious difference from all the 3.25" versions)
neck-2 diameter = 0.4400" (can only mean much greater neck wall thickness since all of these are specified for 0.410" bullet diameter)
shoulder semi-angle specified = 8*00'00" (a slightly sharper shoulder)

.450-.400 Nitro Express 3-Inch (CIP maximums):
rim thickness = 0.0650"
rim diameter = 0.6250"
base diameter = 0.5480"
base to shoulder = 2.1000"
shoulder diameter = 0.5209"
brass case length = 3.0000"
neck-2 diameter = 0.4402"
shoulder semi-angle specified = 7*35'14"

.450-.400 Express 3-Inch (Jeffery and Westley Richards):
rim thickness = 0.0650"
rim diameter = 0.6250"
base diameter = 0.5480"
base to shoulder = 2.1000"
shoulder diameter = 0.5210"
brass case length = 3.0000"
neck-2 diameter = 0.4400"
shoulder semi-angle specified = 8*00'00"

We can only assume that Dr. Howell is saying that the "Jeffery and Westley Richards" version is what those two gunmakers,
including the inventor, W. J. Jeffery, were chambering their rifles for.
It is identical to the "Birmingham Proof House" version,
so he must have had separate drawings or information from the three sources that all agreed.
The "CIP maximums" version is a later contrivance for modern "homologation" differing little from the original sources,
and works fine as frog hair in the Birmingham Proof House/Jeffery/WR chambers.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I mention that Jeffery's own writing explains his experimentation with the 3-1/4" case as a full nitro round (which I firmly believe #5766 was) and that rifle #5815 was in fact the first 3" rifle made, clearly identified as using the "New Case" in the ledger.

I'm going to go with what came directly from the horse's mouth.

I am from Missouri. Please show me that horse's mouth. Where is such writing found? Or are you a psychic medium who has channeled William Jackman Jeffery?

Of course the 3.25" version of the BP .450-.400 was monkeyed-up initially as they all clamored to jump onto the Nitro Express train.
Jackman was a genius.
He developed the first cartridge case for modern smokeless DGRs, the .400 S. Jeffery (circa 1897) used in single-shot and double rifles.
Then he transformed that case into the 404 Jeffery circa 1904, the first ever smokeless, magazine-repeater, DGR.
Rigby even tried using a version of the .400 S. Jeffery, briefly, in the first ever Magnum Mausers available, aborting that for an enlarged version of it, the .416 Rigby.

The .400 S. Jeffery showed the prematurely born 450/400 NE 3.25-Inch how to survive: With some brass improvements,
like it's fraternal twin.
The 3-Incher got much more of improvements.
The 3-Incher was not the runt of the litter, just shorter and stouter at birth.
The 3.25-Incher finally left the nursery but is now good for nostalgiacs only.
Best if used as a NFBPE toy.

Rip ...

I am now a conspiracy theorist.
The great banning of .45-cals by The Empire was said to be done to keep any components from falling into rebel hands, hands that could use .45-cal bullets to fire in the numerous old BP 577/450 Martini Henrys abounding.
Well, that was the useful excuse.
The real reason was to wipe the slate clean of antique .450 BP, BPE, NFBP, and converted-to-NE rifles that were being damaged by the oncoming Nitro Express freight train.
Good excuse to get rid of old weak, thin-rimmed brass that had not gotten some improvements.
Scrap them all and start over with new rifles and brass, anything but for .45-caliber ammo and .45-caliber rifles.
It was an inside job by the Military-Industrial Complex!
That too eventually passed.

And I went to a Trump rally 8-30-2018 in Evansville, Indiana and got to yell along with 12,000 people crowded into the Ford Center,
standing room only, and thousands more outside watching on BIGSCREEN closed-circuit TV also yelling:
LOCK HER UP!
Weather was really nice all day for the rally.
Hoosiers: Joe has got to go, vote for Tom Braun for Indiana U.S. Senator.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I am from Missouri. Please show me that horse's mouth. Where is such writing found? Or are you a psychic medium who has channeled William Jackman Jeffery?

Rip ...

I'm not channeling Jeffery.
I prefer to channel George Gibbs and Alexander Henry. They made much finer rifles than W.J. Jeffery did...

Based on the information in Wal Winfer's book on Jeffery and the Trade Farquharsons and Harding's book on the Birmingham Cartridge Manufacturers, it is clear that a full nitro version of the 3-1/4" case existed before the 3" did.

Winfer, who has had access to the Jeffery ledgers (which is as close to W.J.'s own words), first cited the entry about rifle #5766 as a full nitro load on Nov. 8th, 1897.
Moving along in the ledger to 1898, rifle #5815 is the next .400 bore rifle made with no others between 5766 and 5815.
Now this particular entry DOES indicate that the rifle is chambered for the "New Case" and is fitted with a Krupp steel barrel.
By this glaring notation, one can see that rifle #5766 was a 3-1/4" rifle or it would have been noted otherwise in the ledger.
Every Jeffery 400 from #5815 on was indeed chambered for the 3" case.

You are right that Jeffery corrected all of the shortcomings of loading the original BPE case with cordite in his new 3" design and you are also correct that the BPE case was later strengthened to withstand full nitro loads better but it remains that the first full nitro loading of the 400 was with the 3-1/4" BPE case.

Also, understand that not only did Winfer look at the ledger but published this information in 1999, Pierre van der Walt simply repeated this info in his book in 2010.

W.J. Jeffery was also regularly wrote in to The Field to argue his case in firearms and cartridge development.
In June 1899, Jeffery writes:
"In our opinion a great mistake has been made by some rifle makers in using smokeless powders in the same pattern cartridges as have been hither to used for black powder. It would have been far safer for sportsmen if the smokeless powder cartridges had been made with a thicker rim or some other modification that would have prevented their use in black powder rifles."
By this time, his 3" case was out on the market but no doubt only his rifles were so chambered.
His letter above was a very inexpensive way of promoting the 3" case by more or less implying that if you are to buy a new 400NE, it is advisable that it be a Jeffery. That way, a mix up of your NE ammunition and that for your old BPE rifle would be impossible to occur.
Of course, light cordite loads were also available to be used in BPE rifles but one can see that a mix up could pose a very real problem so his argument for the 3" case is entirely valid.

By 1902, a number of failures with both the 3-1/4"NE and Jeffery's 400 had occurred. Obviously, many were cases of the 3-1/4"NE cartridges being used in BPE rifles but also some of Jeffery's own 3" rifles were experiencing stuck cases and burst barrels.
This was when it was recognized that pressures, especially in the heat of India and Africa, could get dangerously high with cordite loaded cartridges and the "Tropical" load of 55grs was developed to combat the problem.

Your assertion that Jeffery was a genius of cartridge development is not far off the mark.
It would have been better for the industry - not to mention the unsuspecting sportsmen of the day - to have properly developed a purpose built Nitro Express 400 from the start. Through his own experimentation, Jeffery learned firsthand of the dangers and was smart enough to quickly get on with the development of his 3" cartridge.
I suppose Eley's improvements to the 3-1/4" case were subtle admission that Jeffery was right all along.

Huvius,

Thanks for the pointers. I have Volumes 2-5 of Wal Winfer's British Single Shot Rifles series, and that includes Vol.3 on Jeffery.
I never got around to reading that, but will now,
and see if I can't find a Vol.1, and anything else Winfer wrote.

Yes, Jeffery was one of the Giants for sure.

It seems obvious that we are quibbling over which came first, and I am just saying they were contemporaries, it all started in 1987.
But, if you want to win by a few months span in 1897-1898, you win.

Rigby is supposed to have pioneered with the drawn-brass .450 NE 3.25-Inch case by Cordite loading
of the old .450 BP 3.25-Inch dating back to 1869 in rolled-brass Boxer form.
So, did not 1897 to 1898 began the Full Nitro Express Era?

Then, apparently it took Jeffery only one trial of using the .450/.400 BP 3.25-Inch, drawn-brass case of 1884, loaded with Cordite in 1897?
He must have rejected it immediately and set to work on modernizing the entire course of Nitro Express development.

So, you document the first .450/.400 NE 3-Inch in 1898, called the .400 S. Jeffery, brass and rifle actualized.
The first .450/.400 NE 3.25-Inch by Jeffery was a few months earlier, just keeping up with the Rigbys was not good enough.

They both developed about the same time, from the .450-400 BP 3.25-Inch case of 1884. W. J. Jeffery was the genius who did it better.
The 3-incher's brass had distance from base to shoulder of 2.100".
That is much closer to the original .450/.400 BP 3.25-Inch distance of 2.125".
The upstart .450/.400 Magnum NE 3.25-Inch had a base to shoulder distance of only 2.000".
Jeffery developed his new brass more closely to the old BP brass, by that measure, independent of the upstart .450/.400 "Magnum" NE 3.25-Inch case.

In fact, the .450/.400 Magnum NE 3.25-Inch has to be compared to the shorter .400 S. Jeffery, aka .450/.400 NE 3-Inch,
to even come up with the whimsical "Magnum" designation for the less robust 3.25-Inch brass.

Rip ...

It appears I am more correct than anyone wants to admit.
I must have been channeling Wal Winfer, from page 193 of Vol.3:

.450/400-3"
.400 Cordite or .400 Jeffery

"One of the earliest of the large bore nitro cartridges, and certainly one of the most successful, was the .450/400-3" Jeffery. The later Jeffery .400 barrels have a twist of about one in seventeen or eighteen inches, as observed by the inaccurate method of forcing a tight patch through the bore on a cleaning rod and noting its rotation."

"The 3" cartridge was developed after initial failures to convert the .450/400 3-1/4" black powder express to Cordite powders. Jeffery's .450/400-3" is also known as the .400 Cordite, or .400 Jeffery, and was so listed in ammunition catalogues to save confusion with the .450/400 3-1/4". Later the .450/400 3-1/4" round was successfully developed into a nitro load in a strengthened case. Pre turn-of-the-century this was not the case, and the reasons for Jeffery's cartridges' success are provided."

And Winfer goes on ... and on page 195:

"Jeffery carried forward his letter S and entered it with practically all .400 bore rifles at least up to 1907. We believe that the letter S was kept to differentiate between smokeless and black powder rifles of the same caliber."

Winfer mentioned earlier that Jeffery's .450/400-3" was also called the .400 Cordite or simply the .400 Jeffery.
Jeffery was primarily calling it the .400 S. Jeffery in the 1912 catalog of Jeffery offerings, clearly showing in my catalog scans above.
I hesitate to leave out the period after the S as some do ... (How's this for being anal about it?) butt, even the Jeffery catalog shows it both ways: ".400 S." or ".400 S"
However, a catalog heading clearly shows: .400 S.

It is quite the nice pun by Wal Winfrey regarding the failed initial attempts at the .450/400 NE 3.25-Inch:

Pre turn-of-the-century this was not the case, and the reasons for Jeffery's cartridges' success are provided.

I wish I had bet some money on this:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If it is a factory chambering by Ruger, it is the 3" version, which is of course superior in every way to the me-too 3-1/4" version
that uses the thinner-rimmed brass like the old BPE cartridges.
Genius Jackman did it right when he designed the .400 S. Jeffery from scratch with thicker brass.
In the beginning, 1898, there was no confusion of the 3-Inch version with the 3-1/4" version.
It has only been called the 450/400 NE 3-Inch "lately."
In the beginning it was the ".400 S. Jeffery."
The 3-1/4", thin-rimmed version came later, in a failed attempt to one-up the .400 S. Jeffery.

They even had to call it the .450/400 "Magnum" Nitro Express 3.25-Inch in a failed attempt to catch up commercially with the precocious .400 S. Jeffery.
That "Magnum" was FAKE NEWS.
It has been happening everywhere, forever, like politics.

Rip ...

Wal Winfer, Vol.5 (The Holland & Holland volume) pp. 165-168:

*********************************************************************************************************************************************
The .400 Bore ...

Hollands Test the .450/400 3-1/4 Cartridge

This cartridge saw early nitro testing by Hollands but it does not seem to have been too popular with them in other than black powder break open single shots and rifles built on the Field action. A series of of nitro for black powder loads were worked out in the late 1890's, but nothing else seems known; Hollands were working on both the .450/400 2-3/8" and the 3-1/4" length cases at that time.

We first meet the .450/400 3-/14" cartridge in two single shot rifles, ordered by a Captain A. Wilson, spaced over a five year period built to Holland's patent . The first rifle, serial No. 19682, was completed 1/3/98 and chambered, judging from the date, for a black powder cartridge. The rifle was returned to the factory for testing and resighting for a light nitro load. This work was finished October 19th, 1901 ...

Captain Wilson's second rifle, a full nitro .450/400, No. 24198, was tested on November 7th, 1903, when velocities were taken after the breech was coned up i.e. free bored.
...
From the remaining records it seems ovious that Holland's only interest in the .400 bore for single shots centered around developing Captain Wilson's special cartridge. We do not see it again in falling blocks, although some doubles were produced in .450/400 nitro and no doubt rebarreling would have been undertaken on request.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************

Sounds like the .450/400 "Magnum" NE-3.25" was pretty obscure until well after 1900.
Yet the .400 S. Jeffery 3-Incher had been going like gangbusters for 2 years prior to the turn of the century.

I guess I can really rest my case now.

And I learned about the "coning up" of a rifle chamber, the H&H term for free-boring a chamber for "full nitro" loads.

This suggests changing a short, leade-only throat of a rifle, to a Longer leade, more Acute-angled, Wider-diameter-start-of-throat.
Long, Acute-angled Wide-based throating.
LAW throating.
Coned up throating.
The .458 Winchester Magnum throat was invented by Holland & Holland,
copied by the Winchester engineers in 1956.


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I wish I had bet some money on this:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:
If it is a factory chambering by Ruger, it is the 3" version, which is of course superior in every way to the me-too 3-1/4" version
that uses the thinner-rimmed brass like the old BPE cartridges.
Genius Jackman did it right when he designed the .400 S. Jeffery from scratch with thicker brass.
In the beginning, 1898, there was no confusion of the 3-Inch version with the 3-1/4" version.
It has only been called the 450/400 NE 3-Inch "lately."
In the beginning it was the ".400 S. Jeffery."
The 3-1/4", thin-rimmed version came later, in a failed attempt to one-up the .400 S. Jeffery.

RIP, nobody is even arguing with you.
No doubt Jeffery made his 3" better than the 3-1/4" but it was the failings of that cartridge that led him to do it. Necessity being the mother of invention and all that...

Anyway, in my reading, I was led to believe that Jeffery didn't make any 3-1/4" nitro rifles after the advent of the 400S but then I see this on offer up at Ellwood Epps' shop:
https://ellwoodepps.com/jeffer...son-single-shot.html

I suppose they must have just gritted their teeth and built what the customer wanted...

Also, RIP, Chapter 7 of Winfer's Jeffery book takes a more in depth look at the India ammo ban (or bans as it were).
Quite interesting.

One thing I, and about every 450/400 Ruger No.1 owner, wants is a replacement safety.
Found this one:
http://www.legendaryarmsworks....-1-Safety-p/rug1.htm

Are there any others out there? Looks like Trop isn't offering one anymore.

Huvius,

Gunmakers gotta eat too, hence they will make what the customer wants, even if it is for the lesser cartridge, the longer and thinner one.

And that Ruger No.1 safety is the cat's meow, alright!
I could use a dozen of them.

Now we see that the supposed first ever .450 NE 3.25" done by John Rigby & Co. started with proof testing a set of barrels (barrel ledger #2560)
for one of their "Best" quality double rifles on April 3, 1897.
They bulged four sets of barrels until they got it right on the fifth try at proof on November 20, 1897, set #2594.

For the .450 NE it was a matter of getting the steel of proper alloy/strength and proper barrel diameters to fashion a graceful double rifle.
Apparently the drawn brass .450 3-1/4" case was not the limiting factor,
pressures being lower for the .450 than the .450/400 when full NE Cordite loads with heavy bullets were used.

That barrel set went on to become the Rigby Best Quality double rifle serial number 16589
which was delivered to W.C. Wright, Esq. on October 13, 1898.
That is supposed to have been the first ever full "NITRO EXPRESS" rifle of any kind, single or double?

Yet Jeffery won the "Martin Smith Competition at Bisley" in 1898 with his Farquharson .400 S. Jeffery.
That was prior to the November 12, 1898 issue of The Field announcing the new rifle/cartridge combination (Wal Winfer, Vol. 3, p.195).

If the first .450 NE rifle was delivered by Rigby in October 1898,
and Jeffery was out winning competitions with his .400 S. Jeffery prior to November 12, 1898:

That means that the .450 NE and the .400 S. Jeffery were developed contemporaneously.
Surely the .450/.400 "Magnum" NE 3.25-Inch was a later development.
There was no FULL NITRO EXPRESS .450/.400 until after Jeffery succeeded with the .400 S. Jeffery,
which only later became known as the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch.
This was so that the later-developing 3.25-Incher "Magnum" could ride on the coattails of the 3-Incher.
Pure and simple commercialism, the Fake News Magnum.

The .450 NE Rigby and the .400 S. Jeffery were contemporaneously the first two Nitro Express cartridges.
The first conceived may have been Rigby's double rifle, but Jeffery's single shot may have been out and about, winning competitions, before the completed Rigby was even fired.
A single shot is a lot quicker to build, but getting totally new, beefed up brass would take some time.
Any .450/.400 3.25" LIGHT RIFLES before the .400 S. Jeffery must have been LESS THAN FULL NITRO EXPRESS:
Lighter bullets and/or lighter Cordite charges.

Rip ...

From that 1912 Jeffery catalog:



Quadrant views for legibility:

Winner of the Nitro Express Race: It is a tie!

John Rigby (grandson of the founder) with his .450 Nitro Express Rigby
and
William Jackman Jeffery with his .400 S. Jeffery aka in later years as the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch.

Rigby gets technical points for doing it as a thin-barreled, graceful, "Best" double rifle, by finding the proper alloy crucible steel and the minimally adequate barrel profile to survive proof.

Jeffery gets points for developing an entirely new brass case design strong enough to survive the higher NE pressures of his smaller-bored round.
His Farquharson single barrel was a stronger, more accurate piece, not the limiting factor for pressures.

Rigby: Better steel.
Jeffery: Better brass.
Everything else in the Nitro Express craze came after 1898.
Including the crazy .450/.400 "Magnum" N.E. 3.25-Inch.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Then, apparently it took Jeffery only one trial of using the .450/.400 BP 3.25-Inch, drawn-brass case of 1884, loaded with Cordite in 1897?
He must have rejected it immediately and set to work on modernizing the entire course of Nitro Express development.

So, you document the first .450/.400 NE 3-Inch in 1898, called the .400 S. Jeffery, brass and rifle actualized.
The first .450/.400 NE 3.25-Inch by Jeffery was a few months earlier, just keeping up with the Rigbys was not good enough.

I'm circling back to this for no good reason other than to point out that in the reprint of the Jeffery catalog above he states that "We made several rifles, but found that the cartridge cases of the express pattern were not strong enough..."

Makes sense as a failure could be as little as a case split or head separation or as bad as a burst barrel so a few rifles could have been made to know for sure if failures were a result of the cartridge design or the barrel steel itself. This couldn't be ascertained by testing just a single rifle.
I would suspect that these rifles were experimental and not sold to customers but much of the testing of the day was in fact field use by actual customers.

Jeffery wrote to The Field that the 400S "was perfected about the end of 1897, and the first two rifles were submitted to a proof of 73grs of cordite and a 535gr bullet..." so it seems that his experimentation with the 3-1/4" 400 was in early to mid 1897.

Amazing that the tropical heat of Asia or Africa could cause enough of a pressure excursion to burst a barrel proofed with that load!

Bubba can get by with his old safety by using a file and a stone on the old one, until he gets the fancy new one:



Actually the above touch is by Rusty McGee, Master Gunsmith. Bubba Gunwerkes claims it because it is so cool.

I recalled where I learned about the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch coming long before the .450/.400 "Magnum" NE 3.25-Inch: From our own Alf Smith.
This article has been presented previously on the ".404 Jeffery History" thread.
Here is the start of it with a pointer added:













Rip ...

Well, do I get a medal for bringing enlightenment or what?

What it is, eh?

The what is that I have turned on the light and the cock roach of ignorance has scurried away.
No need to thank me y'all.
Doing good is its own reward.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Well, do I get a medal for bringing enlightenment or what?

What it is, eh?

The what is that I have turned on the light and the cock roach of ignorance has scurried away.
No need to thank me y'all.
Doing good is its own reward.

Rip ...

Cock roach of ignorance?
If you are referring to me, RIP, I am afraid that you have already captured that crown!!

You clearly have a distinct inability to comprehend your own post.
Even the article above concedes that Jeffery first developed the 400NE on the 3-1/4" case!
Not only THAT, but the article claims it was based on the Rigby 450 3-1/4"!!

"When Jeffery designed his 450/400x3" in 1897, he based it on the 1/4" longer Rigby .450" bore"

Gee, that must mean that it either had a thin rim, was a 3-1/4" case, or it was BOTH!
NOT THE 3" 400 JEFFERY AS IT IS KNOW TODAY!!!

The article goes on to say that, "...possibly the first .450/400x3" rifle is a WJ Jeffery with serial number 5766, its calibre marked 400S"
Why in the world did the authors suggest that the 400S was based on the Rigby 450 and ALSO choose to omit the FACT that the first rifle Jeffery lists in his ledgers definitively as the 3" "NEW CASE" is rifle #5815

RIP, you've wrung this one out about as far as it can be wrung and you still, through pride or ignorance, refuse to accept the logic and firsthand documentation that the FIRST 400NE cartridge was based on the 450/400BPE case.

I have nothing more to say on the subject as anybody with a modicum of sense can plainly see that there is no reason in trying to argue the obvious.

Huvius,

Prior to the .400 S. Jeffery:
Any loadings of the .450/.400 3.25-Inch that were not utter failures
were less than full "Nitro Express" levels:
Lighter bullets and less energetic propellant.
I.e., BP, BPE, and NFBPE.

Most likely, John Rigby got improved .450 3.25-Inch brass made up by Kynoch
that had a better construction but maintained the thin rim.
Otherwise he would not have succeeded in getting the first ever
Nitro Express Double Rifle built by late 1898.

Also most likely, W.J. Jeffery got wind of the new Rigby brass,
maybe even got hold of some of the .450 3.25" improved brass from Kynoch,
started by necking it down for a .400-bore,
and started working on some of his own,
including one-upping Rigby by getting his made
by Kynoch with a thicker rim too.

With Jeffery's Farquharson it was technically much simpler,
quicker to build a rifle to survive proof, than a double rifle.
So Jeffery was out demonstrating his new rifle and cartridge
before Rigby delivered the first ever .450 NE Rigby.

Some say the .400 S. Jeffery was the first brass case designed
for a Nitro Express rifle.
Maybe so, but surely so if that means a
totally new design.
But maybe Rigby was the first to redesign a case internally only,
for that .450 NE 3.25-Inch that passed proof.

The .450/.400 "Magnum" NE 3-1/4" came after the tie for first place
by Rigby and Jeffery.
It was made possible by the improved brass pioneered by Rigby and Jeffery.
But it was not even runnerup.
The .500 NE was.
Now, was that first .500 NE a 3-Inch or a 3.25"?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
RIP, you've wrung this one out about as far as it can be wrung and you still, through pride or ignorance, refuse to accept the logic and firsthand documentation that the FIRST 400NE cartridge was based on the 450/400BPE case.

That is not the point at all.

The point is that the .400 S. Jeffery, or .450/.400 NE 3-Inch as it is now known, came before the "full nitro" loading of the old .450/.400 Express (3.25") that had been around since 1884 as a balloon-headed, drawn-brass cartridge.

They all descend from the original .450-3.25" of the Boxer-Henry military experimental trial in the first Martini-Henry rifles circa 1869.
The .450-3.25" became the .450 Express (3.25") in balloon-headed, drawn-brass form by the time of the 1884 Kynoch drawing.

In 1887, John Rigby was appointed by the government of Her Majesty to be Superintendant of the Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, in Northern London.
John Rigby oversaw the .303 Lee-Enfield transition from black powder to smokeless repeater.
He was well connected with the powder makers, steel makers, brass makers,
and even used his "pull" to become the sole distributor of everything Mauser, through his family business which he also ran while Superintendant.
(Politics were no different back then, people just did not complain about the stink.)

Anyway, the folks with all the original records say that John Rigby started experimenting with the .450 Express in 1889,
with the help of the Curtis and Harvey gunpowder company.
He was forced to retire as "Superintendent ROF Enfield" when he turned 65 years old in 1894.
Just mandatory retirement at 65 y.o., government rules!

They say that he finally developed the .450 Nitro Express 3.25" with Novemeber 1897 proof survival in a set of skinny barrels meant for a double rifle completed in late 1898.
It was initially called the ".450 Straight Taper" or the ".450 Special."

The fledgling "Nitro Express" era had not yet named itself.
Just like Jeffery originally called his entirely newly designed cartridge the ".400 S. Jeffery" for "Smokeless,"
Rigby was calling his new, improved-brass cartridge the ".450 S." for "Special."

The .400 S. Jeffery was not based on the .450/.400 Express of 1884.
It was most likely based on the .450 S. Rigby, through a bit of industrial espionage,
if not entirely independantly developed by Jeffery.
Now ain't that special?

But Jeffery may have fielded the simpler single-shot .400 S. rifle prior to Rigby fielding the .450 S. Rigby double rifle.
And that "fielding" includes the timing of write-ups in that journal THE FIELD:

December 1898 for the .400 S. Jeffery

November 1899 for the .450 S. Rigby

With improved brass, they eventually started full-nitro loading a cartridge in the form of the old .450/.400 Black Powder Express 3.25".
By then they had Rigby's .450 S. basic to simply neck down to .400 in the old .450/.400 BPE tooling.
And they knew what to call it by then, maybe years after the .400 S. Jeffery and .450 S. Rigby.
They were calling all of the most powerful Cordite and heavy-bulleted cartridges "Nitro Express" by then.

The .450/.400 NE 3-Inch was not based on the .450/.400 BPE 3.25-Inch.
More like the other way around, via the intermediary .450 S. Rigby.
Eventually they all agreed to adopt the common "Nitro Express" nomenclature, except for the rare later upstarts who had to throw in the "Magnum" too.
Just for "Me too!" attention getting.
I.e., .450/.400 Magnum Nitro Express 3-1/4".

Rip ...

The .400 S. Jeffery and the .450 S. Rigby were both fully actualized in 1898.
There were no other "Nitro Express" cartridges prior to that.

The .400 S. Jeffery, I believe, was the first working "Nitro Express" because it was built more speedily after Jeffery got wind of Rigby's work.

The heavier, single barrel of a Farquharson rifle probably survived initial proof using the new ".400 Smokeless" cartridge brass with full Cordite and heavy bullet.

Rigby had to go through proof 5 times before he got a double-barrel set of skinny barrels to survive,
by finding stronger barrel steel to go with his new ".450 Special" brass using full Cordite and heavy bullet.

All the other "Nitro Exoress" cartridges came after 1898. There were none other than the .400 S. Jeffery and the .450 S. Rigby in 1898.





The .450/.400 NE 3" was the .400 S. Jeffery originally, developed in the years from 1897 to 1898.
It was a totally new case design for Cordite/Smokeless loading with heavy-for-caliber bullet.
It was much more than the .450/400 BP 3.25" Express of 1884 merely shortened to 3 inches.
It had thicker brass throughout, including the rim. The base to shoulder distance was greater.
It was the first ever, shooting "FULL NITRO EXPRESS" cartridge.
The gauche "Nitro Express" terminology for a new class of cartridges came only after the initial "S" designations for Jeffery's .400 Smokeless and Rigby's .450 Special.

Rip ...

In my misspent youth I was an avid 40 caliber DG hunter..My all time favorite calibers duplicated each other..The 450-400 in both 3 and 3.25, the 404 Jefferys, and even the .416 Rem..All of which would toss a 400 gr. bullet from 2100 FPS in a double, and 2400 FPS in a bolt gun..I couldn't tell any difference in them in killing power, none at all, and never a complaint with any of them..A Ruger no. 1 is strong enough to push a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS in the 450-400..Maybe more with proper brass.

An interesting tidbit from Graeme Wright in the 3rd Ed. of SHOOTING the BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE,
on page 107, regarding the "450-400 3-1/4 inch":

"... It is easy to reload, but do check bore diameters as there seems to be a lot of variation in this particular caliber.
Quite a lot of these rifles turn up with damaged chambers which are difficult or impossible to repair.
One possible solution that has been used in England and Australia is to re-chamber to the 450-400 x 3 inch.
The thicker rim and fatter case of the 3 inch version will often clean up a damaged chamber. The bullet jump to the rifling has increased, but often the rifle does not even need to be re-regulated."

Like a coned-up, improved chamber.

Rip ...

None better than Jeffrey's .404 in a magazine rifle. Certainly a gazillion dead elephants attest to that.

As 'Pondoro' Taylor often said, Jeffrey's .404 was 'the elephant gun' in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
None better than Jeffrey's .404 in a magazine rifle. Certainly a gazillion dead elephants attest to that.

As 'Pondoro' Taylor often said, Jeffrey's .404 was 'the elephant gun' in Africa.

Right on! And without the .400 S. Jeffery the 404 Jeffery never would have been.

Here is what John "Pondoro" Taylor said about the .400 S. Jeffery (450/400 NE 3-Inch) in 1948:

"Jeffery designed his 3" .400 specially for cordite when it was found in the early days of the transition from black powder to smokeless that the 3-1/4" shell was inclined to stick in single-loaders after firing. It's a very much stronger shell in every way and shows a slightly lower chamber pressure. Nevertheless, both cases are made so strong nowadays, that there is really nothing to choose between them. Accordingly, I am not going to discuss them separately; the difference in their ballistics is so slight that it's not worth considering. It must be remembered, however, that the two shells are not interchangeable."

There was no 450/400 NE 3.25-Inch before the 450/400 NE 3-Inch paved the way for it.
Anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant cockroach who scurries away from the light like a Dirty-Donkey-Democrat.

The enlightenment is old news. Good news. That is the truth. It is the light.

Rip ...

I don’t know exactly what you are getting at (still) but you will be happy to know that I just recently found a rifle in what appears to be your favorite chambering.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I don’t know exactly what you are getting at (still) but you will be happy to know that I just recently found a rifle in what appears to be your favorite chambering.

I am only getting at the TRUTH:
The .400 S. Jeffery (450/400 NE 3") and .450 S. Rigby (450 NE 3.25") were the first two full "Nitro Express" cartridges. They were developed concurrently.
Mr. Rigby may have started first on his, but Mr. Jeffery may have beat him to the actual shootin' and tootin" about it.
Too close to call if it was a race.
The other part of that truth is that the 450/400 "Magnum" NE 3.25" rode on the coattails of the other two.
It did not exist before the .400 S. Jeffery and the .450 S. Rigby paved the way.

As for your rifle find in my favorite chambering, surely you don't mean to tell me that is a .458 WIN?

Rip ...