Here is a 3 shot 100yd offhand group I shot today.I could not get a chance to shoot standing, offhand, like I usually do lately,because of all the hunters at the shooting range.I had to shoot sitting offhand and was getting a really low POI and large groups from a position I am not used to.I thought there was something wrong with my rifle when I got a really low 25yd POI and a POI of over a foot low at 100yds.I even ordered a couple of new front sights because of this.I could not figure it out.Everything on my rifle was checked and was in order.When five o'clock came and we had to call it quits,the range official asked me if I still wanted to shoot.I answered that it was five and we could not shoot after five.He replied,they can't but you could.I said thank you and that I would make it quick.I did not have many rounds left.I loaded three in the mag and fired a three shot group standing.To my surprise all three shots were in the orange.I realised there, that it was the sitting offhand position that caused the low POI.I loaded another three in the mag and shot another group.When I got out a scope to take a look at my target,I felt really proud of myself.Here is the group.[URL= ]Lott/100yds/Open sights/Offhand/Ruger[/URL]

And proud you should be of that - doubly so if you can repeat that group at will!

I too have noted just how the POI changes from a rest to "seated hand-held" to standing. I have one rifle that's uterly pointless to shoot from a rest and demands at least a seated hand-held option.

BTW, shooting a Lott from the bench? Yeah, I'll stamp your Guy-Card for that!

One word: EXCELLENT

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by rnovi:
And proud you should be of that - doubly so if you can repeat that group at will!

I too have noted just how the POI changes from a rest to "seated hand-held" to standing. I have one rifle that's uterly pointless to shoot from a rest and demands at least a seated hand-held option.

BTW, shooting a Lott from the bench? Yeah, I'll stamp your Guy-Card for that!

Thanks rnovi.I don't know why it is so,but I found it more tolerable to shoot it sitting and offhand than any other position.There is no doubt,it kicks and bruises me most when I fire it standing,offhand-especially when I have not given my arm and shoulder a rest between shoots.When I fired it sitting, the muzzle went up and I rolled with it.When I fire it standing,it just comes straight back into my shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
One word: EXCELLENT

Oscar.

Thanks ovny!

Good shooting!!!!

Thanks Gerhard. On the topic of felt recoil,I gave this a little thought and I'll explain how I see it.When one is sitting down and shooting from a bench and is aiming at a target such that the target is on a level plane,muzzle blast thrust will only briefly be on the same plane with the shooters shoulder,before it rises above.When a shooter is standing and aiming at a target that is lower or one in which the muzzle points slightly downward,the muzzle blast thrust will stay longer in the area that is on the same plane as the shooters shoulder,before it rises above.IMO,the most recoil tolerable shooting position should be one in which the shooter aims upward at their target,like an ele brain shot.In other words,you will feel less recoil when you aim higher.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Thanks Gerhard. On the topic of felt recoil,I gave this a little thought and I'll explain how I see it.When one is sitting down and shooting from a bench and is aiming at a target such that the target is on a level plane,muzzle blast thrust will only briefly be on the same plane with the shooters shoulder,before it rises above.When a shooter is standing and aiming at a target that is lower or one in which the muzzle points slightly downward,the muzzle blast thrust will stay longer in the area that is on the same plane as the shooters shoulder,before it rises above.IMO,the most recoil tolerable shooting position should be one in which the shooter aims upward at their target,like an ele brain shot.

wow, had to capture that one, too ..

What your really capturing are my secrets but that's OK because I don't mind sharing them with you all!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
What your really capturing are my secrets but that's OK because I don't mind sharing them with you all!

starts with an S, yes ... Flinchie, i like to catpure the ones where you are RADICALLY incorrect .. not just a little off, but 100degrees off..

the most COMFORTABLE shooting position is certainly NOT off hand with the gun pointed up, AND expecting to not let go.

george, let's face it, you are at least entertaining, in a 3 stooges sort of way

I just wanted to add that stocks with a drop at the heel or comb such as the german and hogbacks accomplish this in that they get the muzzle already up.

Its been said -Even a blind squirrel( in this case retarded) finds a nut every once in awhile. -Rob

Very good shoot away !
What kind of rifle in what caliber and what kind of sights !
...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Very good shoot away !
What kind of rifle in what caliber and what kind of sights !
...tj3006

Thanks Thomas. I used a factory 458 lott Ruger bolt action with its original sights.I used the last or long range leaf,that I have glued to stay up with loctite.When the two sights I ordered arrive then maybe I can replace the front sight with one and use the first rear sight and not have to use or glue any of the flip-up leaf sights.

Shhotaway, just out of curiosity, have you ever hunted waterfowl with a heavy recoiling shotgun? I spend some time each year testing waterfowl loads to find the best pattern among the ammo and guns that I have, unless I am shooting the same combo from the year before. I don't mind shooting those guns horizontal, but when the geese start flying and you're shooting damn near straight up, the recoil is brutal. I swear you make these posts just to see if anyone reads them.

Joe,look at that target.Does that look like I don't know what I am doing? I am sure you are going to say the same thing when I shoot like that at 200yds! I bet you made that post up so that YOU could see if anyone would read it.

Were you wearing your "shooting Helmet" and did you attach the stock to it with woodscrews like we told you? If you just super glued it, like your sight, your POI will wander! If you build up your neck muscles enough you wont need any upper arm strength at all. Pay attention, focus, concentrate!

No sir, I didn't write my posting to see whom would read it. I made it because the theory you put fourth was complete bullshit.

Great shooting...

IF I COULD shoot that good at 100 yards, all the time... I would go to Camp Perry.

And I have been to Camp Perry, Handgun not rifle.

You all do understand this tool is just screwing with you dont you? Total Bullshit!-Rob

Shootaway-

Great shooting!
The .458 is a hoot and a half, so much potential - and so flexible.
My .458 is a Whitworth Express.
I'd gotten it via trade as a 'sure that'll do' kind of thing - hadn't really ever put much thought into owning one, but when the opportunity came round I was happy with what I got.
Before I ran it much, I did the full-course two stock bolts, re-fit the barrel recoil lug, relieved the stock where it needed it, did a wee bit of slicking the action, and Devcon Steel bedded the thing out to the forend tip.
Replaced the front sight with a NECG banded masterpiece sight and ran the slick and easy Brownells sight height calculator over some Hornady trajectory math on what I'd figured I'd get with my 350gr SNRN Hornadys and headed out to the ranch to shoot it.
It worked out nicely, and I ended up developing a good fast and accurate load with Aussie powder.
Once everything was sorted, I ran it for quick pairs offhand at 100 yards.

This was my first(!) pair from that day of offhand shooting...




Shot a couple, set the rifle down, and strolled down to the target with a cup of tea.
That definitely put a smile on my face.
The black tape at nine, twelve, and three o-clock were sight alignment aids.
The good thing is that the load and the rifle are reliable and consistent.
I have to be present in order to get that kind of results, if my head ain't right it doesn't work out as well...
From what I've heard, as you've shown with your work, the cartridge can lend itself to great accuracy.



Cheers
Tinker

shootaway - please provide full picture of target. you HAVE been caught before, mispresenting targets and videos, haven't you?

4 shots on video, 3 shots on paper .. or was it the other way around.

did you superglue everything down?

WHy are you changing sight inserts, as you assert nearly all correction in sights are madew by tightening down the screws

wait a minute.. this is the same ruger you swore up and down shot perfect point of aim ..

and then started hitted TWO FEET left, which you picked it up off the bench..

you must have a PROFOUND flinch

that is excelent shooting !
I like those rugers. I would love one in .375 H&H.
Like to see your sights when you get them installed.
I allways say the fold downs look good but to me , not practicle.
I am not going to shoot beyond 150 yards with out a scope anyway.
The RSI Rugers are really cool and as I said I would love one in .375, But I keep hearing they are to heavy for the round.
So I might split the difference and get a 416 Rigby.
I like the Kimber Kaprivi but its almost 3 grand.
In the next year i will have some sort of of a big bore.
I like the .375 beacuse of it's versitility...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
You all do understand this tool is just screwing with you dont you? Total Bullshit!-Rob

Yeah, like almost everyone that posts their achivements on line. "So much cooler on line".

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
You all do understand this tool is just screwing with you dont you? Total Bullshit!-Rob

Yeah, like almost everyone that posts their achivements on line. "So much cooler on line".

Rob is the inventor of the 600 OK and the 12 ga from hell, perfector of the 585 nyati chamber reamer, competative 50 bmg shooter, and a good hunting buddy of mine.

there's difference between bragging of the occasional stunt ... and a lifetime of particpating and communicating and sharing with the shooting communinity. giving, helping, making NEW things happen, cutting new ground, and hell, even having a cartridge or two with sporting round designations

ZERO relationship to a chucklehead that thinks loctiting his screws into an action with a torque wrench is the salvation to all shooting problems.

READ shoot-for-brains' posts .. those that he hasn't DELETED for being shown to be an idiot.

He complained of groups from his 458 win mag.. shooting scoped, from the bench .. WITH ONE SCOPE RING ON

He shoots with a skidoo helmet (his admission)

he hits to FEET different, with irons, when he picks his rifle up off the bench...

he thinks that big bores recoil LESS when pointed up ...

and firmly feels that an improperly cleaned barrel can cause the gun to crack the stock ... now, get this.., he thinks EVERY cleaning should be done with JB bore paste and patches, NOTHING ELSE, scrubbed till clean

feels that a 458 winmag barrel is SHOT OUT to the end of accuracy in under 300 rounds

and FIRMLY believes that muchabout about with the sights enough will correct differences made when a barrel is shortened.

in short, the man posts as an idiot.

Rob, on the other hand, is the real deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Were you wearing your "shooting Helmet" and did you attach the stock to it with woodscrews like we told you? If you just super glued it, like your sight, your POI will wander!

I am more than a bit confused as to just how one would shoot "sitting offhand" from a bench?
Kind of like a contradiction in terms for sitting is a primary requirement in using a bench whereas offhand normally conjures up an image of one standing?? Since your research on recoil has brought you to the conclusion that shooting with the rifle pointed upward at the target, as in an elephant, let me suggest the next time at the range you stand on the bench and shoot upward. With 458Lott and it's inherent recoil, this would surely bring you to a whole new "plane" of understanding of recoil and POI.

Thats a great group for open sights.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
Thats a great group for open sights.

Thanks everyone.I am really pleased with this group.I have shot tighter groups offhand with a big bore before,especially with a fresh shoulder,but never figured out the rifle.It has now gotten to where I have figured it out and can repeat the group and keep the same POI.Once I get my 308 back from the smith,I plan on practicing with it as an open sighted rifle,giving my shoulder a rest and then start shooting the lott again.I would like to shoot the lott well at 200yds,but that's another big hurdle.I feel that when you can get an open sighted rifle,especially a hard kicker to shoot well and maintain its POI at 100 or more yards,you have accomplished something.I once had a scoped 270 that would shoot great groups at 25 yds but would not hit the target at 100yds,because it's mount screws kept unscrewing.A broken rifle in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing,will shoot the tightest groups at 25 yds.

quote:

A broken rifle in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing,will shoot the tightest groups at 25 yds.

What? would someone please translate that.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
A broken rifle in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing,will shoot the tightest groups at 25 yds.

awesome ..

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Miller:

quote:

A broken rifle in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing,will shoot the tightest groups at 25 yds.

What? would someone please translate that.

Sure. It means that 25yds is no test for any rifle or shooter.

good shooting...

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
good shooting...

Mike

Thanks Mike.Welcome back.