Gentlemen,

I have read a lot about the insufficiences of the 458 Win Mag vs the Lott or .404 Jeffery. I am also slowly learning to work on Mausers and build rifles and someday I plan on putting together a magnum. In fact, I have a VZ action set aside for this.

Now then, with the availability of (relatively) inexpensive brass and bullets, I am leaning towards someday assembling a 458 Win Mag. I can't say if I'll ever make it to Africa or not - this will most likely be a "just for the hell of it" project - so buffalo charge stopping power is not my foremost concern. Also, by the time I get to this stage in my hobby, I *aught* to be able to do all the work myself. However, after everything is said an done, is a 458 Win worth the trouble?

FWIW, I'll also have a 8x68s and 9.3x62 in the arsenal by the time I get around to tackling a big magnum so I'll have just about everything covered up that level of power and I don't really want any duplicates. I'm also not real fond of wildcats or particularly scarce cartridges.

I'll add that this project is still a long ways off and I'm really just thinking out loud here. But, if this is a just for grins project, why wouldn't I want a 458 Winnie?

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Gentlemen,

, why wouldn't I want a 458 Winnie?

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

Jason

I think everyone should have one.
John L.

Folks are really divided on the poor win mag. I opted for the Lott. But, the .458 ain't the same beast it was when it was introduced. It's a much more viable round with modern powders. Not familiar with your action, but if it'll handle a .375 H&H length round, I'd go Lott -- at least you will have options then.

Nice thing about the regular .458 is the ease with which it can be reloaded with cast bullets for cheep practice, shooting plainsgame etc. Not that the Lott cannot be downloaded but the regular .458 is just so easy to load. And, if you do make it to Africa, with fresh ammo, that .458 will be all the gun you need.

take the following with a huge grain of salt, as
you can not build a 458 winmag cheaper than you can buy a cz 458 lott


Here's the long and short of it.
the 458 lott is the "best" of the big bores, for brass, bullets, feeding, shooting, and power.

the 458 winmag is the same, but there's a trade off with the lott. with the winnie's overall length, one does NOT have to buy a super custom bottom metal (read 350-ish bucks) or cut .035 out of an action, the trade off is that you loose 150 fps with modern powders, with the same barrel length.

Hornady loads lott to 2300 and winnie to a CLAIMED 2260 ... i would bet it's closer to 2180.

If this is your FIRST bigbore, there's nothing in the world wrong with a 458 winnie... and all the fellas that bitch about "wildcats" will then have to cowboy up and say "yeah, the 458 winnie is in more villages than the lott"

costs, doing ALL you can your self
barrel -180
reamer -100
sights - 150
stock -350 (pad, wood, bedding, finish, no checkering)
general gunsmithing - 150
bluing - 100

over 1000...

cz, 458 lott, 750

Get the lott and shot ALOT

jeffe

Why would you change a 458WM to a Lott if it provides you with no more than 13% more energy to play around with. Rather go all the way and convert to a 458 3" Express of which their is approximately 130 in use in South Africa. The 458 Express uses 458WM virgin brass, this is the brass prior to being shortened to 458WM spec's. The lenght of the brass then totals 2.99" and voila you have all the case capacity you would ever need.
Lott owners would not admit that they also struggle with compressed loads due to not enough case capacity.The 458WM was developed to duplicate 470NE balistics but could never achieve that. Jack Lott then decided after his encounter with a buffalo to rectify the problem and based the Lott on a 375H&H case. Whatever the Lott can do the Express can do better....
The CZ 550 or its predecessor the ZKK 602 boasts a long enought action and magazine box to accomodate 458 Express rounds.
Due to less chamber pressure, as was tested by the South African Bureau of Standards, the recoil of the Express is also considerably less than for the Lott.
In any event I am not here to try and convince Lott owners to convert to the Express.
With ease 500gr bullets can achieve velocities of between 2250 and 2400 ft/s.

Regards

Phil Shoemaker did a side by side test of factory Hornady .458 Lott ammo and factory Hornady "Heavy Magnum" .458 Win Mag and got the following results over his chrono...

All rounds were fired thru the same .458 Lott rifle:

.458 Lott avg = 2260fps

.458 Win Mag avg = 2220fps

With RL7 I'm clocking 2125fps (500gr Hornady RN Interbond) in handloads with zero pressure signs in both my Ruger .458's.

The all-time classic .470 Nitro Express earned it's reputation with a 500gr bullet at 2150fps and few people here will suggest that it's ineffective.

The Lott is a wonderful cartridge and of course can hit 2300fps when properly loaded. But as seen above the WM can break 2200fps with the Hornady factory ammo and we're talking less than 100fps with some loads. Whether this difference is significant enough to worry about is up to interpretation.

Tex,
The standard .458 WinMag has a long funnel of a throat (close to an inch of throat) that will handle any bullet seated out as far as possible in a 3.8" magazine box like the CZ 550 Magnum.

The .458 Win Mag will do anything a .458 Lott or even .458 Express 3" will do in a Rigby length box.

Motshumi,
Is that the Setswana word for "hunter"... "motshumi?"

The Barnes TSX, North Fork, and GSC bullets with bands or grooves offer flexibility to the .458 Win Mag. Crimping the TSX 500 grainer on either of the last two cannelures toward the base of the bullet will fill your magazine.

Motshumi, who offers brass ?

I am by no means an expert in this area, but the 458 WM in not a slouch of a cartridge. Plus you can build it on a standard length acion like your VZ (24 I assume). The Winnie brass and ammo are easier to find also. But remember that this is your project and you build what you want to, despite everyone elses opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

you can not build a 458 winmag cheamer than you can buy a cz 458 lott

What's a 'cheamer'? Is that a contraction for 'chamber reamer'?

The little RCBS book of cartridge and chamber specs shows the glory of the .458 Win Mag throat:

Starts off 0.4690" diameter (a whopping 0.0110" over bullet diameter).

Tapers with a leade angle of: 0 degree 29' 30"

Total throat is 1.137" to the land diameter. No parallel sided freebore, just a very long leade.

This is a whopper that the standard .458 Lott reamer will not quite clean up completely, but almost ...

You can crimp on the fifth cannelure of the .458/500gr TSX and chamber it in the .458 Win Mag CZ, feeding smoothly from the box. Just under 3.8" long. This equals the .458 Express 3".

Crimp it on the 4th cannelure and you get a .458 Win Mag Long Nose that is over 3.6" long. This beats the .458 Lott for case capacity in an H&H length magazine.

The .458 Win Mag in a CZ 550 Magnum, or Ruger No.1, can be hotted up considerably by the handloader.

Excuse my ignorance, but aside from the obvious advantages of being able to load an even heavier bullet -- let's say a 600 grainer -- how much more velocity is really ËneededË? That is of course assuming that we can get an honest 2150 out of the win mag, and 2250-2300 out of the Lott with a 500 grain bullet. Just asking.

Nothing wrong with the Win. offering using todays powders and not using overly compressed charges. We now have much better powders that will not turn into squib loads due to their compressed state if used in a reasonable amount of time. It still is the #1 Big Bore sold as far as ammo goes, and has taken many fine heads of game. We only hear of the "nightmare" stories ,but none of the good ones when it did what it was intended to do. Charlie

Regarding the WM/Lott Hornady factory ballistics, please note that this is not an "apples to apples" comparison. That's the "Heavy Magnum" load in WM, and a regular load in Lott.

While I won't dispute the "compressed charge" issue with the Lott as described above, I will at least point out that it's a bigger problem with the Win-Mag, especially with long bullets-- Bridger, Northfork, Barnes, and so on.

The Lott will do everything the Win-Mag will do, but at 50-100 yards further away. That, and having an easier time loading long bullets are the only differences.

Pertinax

P.S. I'm in the H-4895 camp when it comes to loading the Lott. With apologies to Ray, I've not had good velocities with IMR-4320.

quote:

Originally posted by pertinax:
Regarding the WM/Lott Hornady factory ballistics, please note that this is not an "apples to apples" comparison. That's the "Heavy Magnum" load in WM, and a regular load in Lott.

While I won't dispute the "compressed charge" issue with the Lott as described above, I will at least point out that it's a bigger problem with the Win-Mag, especially with long bullets-- Bridger, Northfork, Barnes, and so on.

The Lott will do everything the Win-Mag will do, but at 50-100 yards further away. That, and having an easier time loading long bullets are the only differences.

Pertinax

P.S. I'm in the H-4895 camp when it comes to loading the Lott. With apologies to Ray, I've not had good velocities with IMR-4320.

I agree with you about bullet lenghts versus case length in the Win. Mag. If Winchester would have studied British N.E. cartridges before rushing the Win. Mag into production it may have been the Lott from day one. The question i always ask is this; Jack would have made the same shoddy shot with a soft, and the out come would have been the same. What would he have "invented" next?? Winchester had problems with their ammo, thats not a secret. Many who have read Jacks account of the event agree the first one was bad and it got worse after that. He put the blame on the round, not his poor choice of bullet and timing. Charlie

.

Alf,
I have read of the pressure problems with the .458 Express 3" and the long monometals and 600 grainers.

I have also read of Ross Seyfried's reservations about pressures in the .458 Lott with Hornady 500 grainers at over 2200 fps. Ross never did finish that story before he got canned at Wolf. He seemed to be hinting at an explanation that he never revealed. I was guessing something to do with the specific pressure barrel the measurements were done in. Cliff hanger just like the foam wad filler in NE cartridges ...

Hopefully the reduced bearing surface of the TSX will overcome any pressure problems, and the GSC HV and FN would be even better in the .458 Win Mag Long Nose. 3.680" or 3.780" in a CZ 550 Magnum box or a Ruger No1, take your pick. The 3.680" load is crimped on the second cannelure from the base and leaves lots of bullet in the case for neck tension over a 100% load: It would work fine.

And the .357 Maximum did eat up revolver throats with gas/flame cutting didn't it?

I need to look into a photo of the .458WMLN to post. Will add it to the list ...

Alf, yes i have read about Mr. Whatts and Winchester. I do belive Winchester had the .375 action out before the .458, but they wanted in a standard action to keep the price down. This is all from memory ( or whats left of it) so i may be very wrong on dates. Charlie

The 458 Win with a proper handload will suit you in Africa, it works well enough and it certainly will kill a 'just for the hell of it"

Like I said it works, but it is, and always will be a poorly designed round IMO. You have better choices and the Lott is one of them, and considering it will shoot a 458 Win. round I see little reason to not go with a Lott and have the needed velocity at somewhat lower pressure...it just makes since and its an easy make.

Bingo , RIP.........Iv'e often wondered why those crying about the compressed .458 loads didn't just use it in a 375 length action and load it to 3.6 inch OAL . With the same powder capacity , should do exeactly the same thing as a Lott chamber .

RIP, the 375 Maximum gas-cut Ruger top straps above the barrel a few thousandths and stopped. Repeated firings would not cause deeper gas cutting. I never heard of it eating forcing cones (throats). The Dan Wesson top strap was far enough away that it wasn't affected but the rumor mill flew into full speed and killed what was an otherwise admirable round.

Seating bullets out in a magnum action with the short 458 Win. case is a damn poor fix in my mind...

If the 458 Win is not enough gun or if the 458 Lott is not enough gun for anyone then they should go to the next larger caliber..Thats the way to fix it...making a silk purse from a sows ear never was much punkin...

I totaly agree whith Ray, the .458 has been bstardedized by a few who coulndt shoot to save their souls , and blamed it on the round. You could probably count on one hand the number of defective rounds that were actually used in the field on D.G. Winchester was about 200 f.p.s. off on their published bullistics, but at 2150 it will kill any thing that flys,crawls,swims,jumps,or runs. So what did we do, we invented something "better", "faster" and with a hell of alot more recoil. Do you realy think a game animal could tell the difference between 500 grains at 2150 or 2300 ?If your answer is yes go on and read more mags., they have you hooked. Thats what i think. Charlie

Ja,
The .458 WinMag Long Nose is not ideal, but it is undeniable, the "poorly designed" .458 WinMag can beat a .458 Lott if the deck is stacked a bit:

1. Use 500 grain monometal softs and solids with cannelures in the right places, e.g., the Barnes TSX.

2. Limit the .458 Lott to its standard 3.6" (H&H length) magazine, and its standard throat (about .7" overall throat: 0.4" freebore plus leade).

3. Use the .458 Win Mag in a Rigby-length box (3.8") with its standard throat, which is over 1.1" of leade that is 0.4690" wide at the start of the funnel, with no parallel-sided freebore.
In other words, a standard CZ 550 Magnum Safari or even a Ruger No.1 in .458 WinMag.

Of course similarly, the .458 Lott makes the .458 Express 3" look silly.

This post is purely for informational purposes. It is the truth.

I recon the .458 WIN mag is a grand old gentle man of the Dangerous game class of cals! & if something aint broke why try & fix it?Thats just my personal opinion.Lets face it if we did'nt have variaions of Cals.Campfires would be pretty boring to sit around

quote:

Originally posted by Motshumi:

Due to less chamber pressure, as was tested by the South African Bureau of Standards, the recoil of the Express is also considerably less than for the Lott.

The factors involved in the recoil equation are:

Bullet weight
Powder weight
Gun weight
Muzzle velocity

Chamber pressure has no bearing on recoil. Period.

Here is a solution to the .458 Win Mag problem:



It is a .460 Wby mag, octogon barrel, on BBK-02 action (controlled feed) for $3K at Hallowells. It can be loaded down to 458 Win Mag levels if desired.

.

Rip,
All M-70 applicable in this case have .375 length actions, it just a matter of taking the spacer out of them and a few minor adjustments..

I have always liked the idea of the 3" 458 Win. that is what the 458 should have been from the get go...and brass is available..A down loaded 458 3" is the real solution to a great African caliber if one needs that big of a gun...

The other great alternative was the 460 G&A on the 404 case, and its later clones such as the Dakota...but if I were going that route and wante a big big bore then I would go to the 470 Capstick as its now called, used to be the 475 Ackley Magnum before Art and Peter renamed it, for all practical purposes they are the same.