The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416 Ruger - 416 Taylor opinionsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Guys, I'm having my tired 458 WM redone with a new barrel and chambering. I'm thinking 416 Ruger or 416 Taylor. Action is a MARK X and I'm doing a 24" barrel. Any pros or cons of each would be appreciated. THX Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | ||
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well -- sure the taylor is a wildcat and is smaller capacity than a 416 rem. therefore vels over 2400 are likely to be higher pressure than a 416 rem exactly the opposite is true for the 416 ruger -- factory, larger capacity, and easy to hit 2400 the ruger, while smaller than my 416 AccRel, totally obviates the needs for 90% of all low 40s opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
The Taylor is a cool cartridge hopefully someone can share expereience. | |||
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Mark, I've owned 416 Rigby's, a couple of 416 Rem's and a 416 Ruger, my favorite is the 416 Ruger, component availability, and great Hornady brass make it a winner. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Personally I find the recoil from the Ruger family, .375 and .416, to be more pronounced and sharper than the other non-Ruger variants like the .375H&H, .416 Taylor, .416 Rem, .416 Rigby. The recoil is much more akin to the large magnum rifles like the RUM's, i.e., less of a push and more of a whack. Not that they are uncontrollable by any means, just not as pleasant to shoot. Mike | |||
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no belt on the Ruger to mess with. | |||
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Just for grins, I will through my personal favorite into the mix, 416 B&M-- with the long 458 magazine you can long load bullets for Plains game and still have you DG bullets down "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Mark, as Mike stated above I would agree, the recoil is more pronounced in the 416 Ruger. That said, either of the two 416 calibers is going to have a noticeable reduction in recoil compared to the 458WM on the same receiver/stock platform if weight remains the the same or slightly less. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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I would do the 416 Ruger in a heart beat. And exactly what I will do with my 458 WM Mark X / Whitworth if I decide that I do not desire a 458WM any longer. Though, I probably would do a 22" barrel. I have a couple of the 416 Ruger Alaskan models with 20" barrels. I like this cartridge. I used one with a 350 TSX hand load this past year for moose. I have a M70 SS re-barreled to 416 Rem, and this is the 416 that I would go with for an H&H type action. But the 416 Ruger is my favorite 416. Combined with the 350 TSX it does all that I need and more. I personally do not find the 416 Rem nor Ruger unfriendly to shoot with the 350 gr bullets. ------------------------------------------------
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I built a pair of 416 Taylors before the Ruger came out. Works well kills just find if I didn't have a lot of brass and dies I would re-chamber to the Ruger. No use messing with a wildcat when a factory round is available to do about the same thing. | |||
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I would go with a 416 ruger...mine was built from the ground up ...its based on a SATTERLEE ARMS ACTION, 22 INCH OBERMYER BARREL 1/12 twist MCMILLAN STOCK and a 4X LEUPOLD...the balance on the rifle is absolutly superb, it just points naturally , it comes in at 9.25 lbs loaded , and 82 GN OF R17 pushes out the 400 gn WOODLEIGH at 2400...its accurate like an varmint rifle and you can carry it in Africa all day Love shooting it with 400 gn cast bullets at 1500 fps regards | |||
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416 RUGER. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I would vote for the 416 Ruger for all the same reasons mentioned. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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My vote is for the 416 Ruger also. I have the 375 Ruger and it is a pleasure to load and shoot. I know 375 Ruger cases are available, would figure 416 Ruger would be too. | |||
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I have had my 416 Taylor for 20 years built on a RUGER M77. I built it with a Douglas barrel 25" long. I get right at or just under 2400 with 400 gr pills. It has served me well and taken elk, moose and bear. It is easy to load for with plenty of brass available and it does not knock your fillings out. I would build another although the 416 Ruger is a nice cartridge. Just my 2 cents | |||
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416 Taylor. Plenty of horsepower, brass can be made from almost any belted case, Lee dies are a perfect match for the PTG reamer, set your sizer die to headspace on the shoulder so no belt issues, RL-15 will get you 2350-2400fps with a 400 without crazy pressure. Mine has a 23'' bbl. This is a hobby for us and if you are re-barreling you might be looking for something beyond factory standard stuff. | |||
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Regarding recoil, I suppose everyone's experiences and perception are their own, thus I think it's a bit subjective. The 416 Ruger has a slightly larger base diameter (for this purpose measured inside diameter at base) than the 416 Taylor and Rem, which should make the Ruger exert a little more backthrust. However, the Ruger has about 5% less case capacity than the 416 Rem, which should make recoil between the two a wash. If you do the math, the base diameter and case capacity of the 416 Rigby put recoil well above the 416 Ruger. Factory 416 Ruger African and Alaskan rifles are pretty light compared to your typical .416 Rem or Rigby factory offerings from CZ, Winchester, or Remington, in 416 calibers, so I can see where the 416 Ruger could have gained a reputation as a heavier kicker. However, when chambered in Identical rifles, the numbers should indicate that there will be no perceptible difference in recoil between the 416 Rem and 416 Ruger. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Neither. I may actually rebarrel an Interarms Mark X to either a .400 H&H or .404 Jeffrey. I'm leaning towards the .400 H&H as it has excellent longer range capabilities. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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You must be a non reloader who just depends on what you read. | |||
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Two pluses for the 416 Taylor. Brass from either 338 or 458 Winchester but this would probably be more meaningful in Australia. If you want to or like to play with very reduced loads (squib loads) the belted case is better as headspace won't increase with each shot. Having said that I would still get the 416 Ruger. | |||
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The more I go back and research the .400 H&H the more I realize what a perfect cartridge it is for both 400 and 300 grain bullets. The .400 H&H on a Mark X action is my next project; as if I need one. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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I have a dissenting opinion on the 400 H&H. The 400H&H is a needlessly long cartridge, it is another 2.85" magnum length case. But after adding all of that superfluous length it only has about a 95.0 grain capacity (AmmoGuide algorithm). The 416 Ruger already has a 96.2 grain capacity, so the 400H&H scores bupkis. The shorter Ruger case then adds several advantages: a. In a magnum action the 416Ruger will allow the use of long, high-BC bullets to be loaded in the magazine, and/or to be seated farther out than the H&H. b. The 416 Ruger will also fit in any standard (270, 30-06, 338WM) length action. c. Components are readily available, thanks to the excellent Hornady brass. d. The .416" has a wider selection of excellent hunting and long-range bullets than .410". e. Shorter powder stacks are said to be more inherently accurate, though such considerations are superfluous for a serious, big game hunting round. The 416 Ruger is not going to be a bench-rest target round looking to squeeze the absolute last millimeter of accuracy out of a rifle. f. The belt-less 416 Ruger will headspace on the shoulder and that will probably lead to longer case life for the average reloader. Belted cartridges can get away with extra slop in tolerances that some reloaders ignore. g. The neck on the 400H&H is .68", which to me seems to be asking for extra trouble when resizing and squeezing a little more brass to the mouth. When resizing large bores it is the neck expander that seems to create the most resistance and noise. h. In sum, the design of the 400H&H seems flawed and wasteful against the efficiency and huntability of the 416 Ruger. So why fool around with semi-proprietary, quasi-wildcats, when the 416 Ruger is available 'over the counter' from many resources? Jeffeoso has said pretty much the same thing, even though his 416 AccRel has a marginal capacity advantage (102.4 grain, AmmoGuide) over the 416 Ruger, but an advantage that is almost irrelevant in hunting conditions. I'm thinking of getting a 416 Ruger the next time I buy a 416 rifle. The 416 Rigby, of course, is a great round, but it is only necessary if someone wants to use the cavernous capacity for "416 Weatherby" ballistics and if someone wants to carry a heavier, magnum-length action and rifle. For a lighter carry, the 416 Ruger, in something like a Hawkeye African or the older Alaskan, is a fantastic offering of bang for the buck and for weight of carry. The 416 Ruger at an attractive price point is the kind of cartridge that every big bore enthusiast should consider, whether for plinking, North American elk, moose, and bear, or a safari in Africa. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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You are so right on many of your statements. But a .416 Ruger isn't sexy or classy. And I don't do ugly. The Ruger isn't destined to be in a Mauser action for me, and resale is difficult without taking a big loss. I've had many rifles based on the .375,H&H to include the .240 Apex. .275 H&H Mag, .300 H&H Mag, and .375 H&H Mag. All great traditional cartridges that have been copied by the likes of .243 Win, 7MM Mag, .300 Win. .375 Ruger and Weatherby. Etc. I also don't get this obsession with a short action. It doesn't make a difference in anything. Sure, you can maybe put a few more grains of powder in the Ruger .416, but that makes no effectual difference either. It all comes down to personal preference and resale value. I'll go with the H&H. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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| one of us |
The 416 Ruger isn't "sexy" ? It looks almost exactly like a smaller version of the 416 Rigby! Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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The items below from 416Tanzan's post are the selling points for me on the 416 Ruger. My 2nd choice in 416's is the 416 Rem. I have had one, more years than not,shortly after its introduction at least one M70 416 Rem. But, always wanted one in stainless, and the blued models received almost no use. I currently have one built on a M70 Classic SS. I like the rifle and cartridge but see no advantage, for me over the 416 Ruger. Real or imagined benefit, I prefer to use the same action length as my boring, non-flashy, and common cartridges such as 338 WM,300 WM,7mm Rem, and the not as common 375 Ruger. I have some not so common, longer and shorter action cartridge rifles. But the aboves are my actual users. - Building and/or having brings some pleasure also, whether used or not- Otherwise, I would only have a single 338 WM. ------------------------------------------------
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I would get the 416 Ruger. Except that I already have a 416 Taylor.  The Taylor has some minor upside (cheap brass) but overall the 416 Ruger is the way to go. I'd re-chamber but there is really not enough gain to justify the expense. | |||
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Well I rebarreled my 416Ruger Alaskan to 458Win as I only wanted the platform ! The 458Win (500gr 2100fps) seems to have less felt recoil & is a little lighter ?? Keep the 458Win it will do the job ! | |||
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I will put my $.02 in and offer a nod towards the 416 Ruger, having shot a few Buff is OZ with one. But my heart belongs to the 400H&H which has been very good to me. mdstewart if you would like any info on re-loading for the cartridge or the like toss me a PM.. Good Luck with your quest.. | |||
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I think of it this way. If the 375 Ruger case had come out in say 1910 in an affordable and reliable rifle platflorm. There would not be a 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 416 Remington and probably not a 458 win mag today. Hunters would have long ago realized the superiority of the case design. Only nostalgia keeps the old cartridges alive and that is fine. I have a 416 Rigby and 416 Remington and enjoy both. From a pure functional standpoint the older cartridges fall way short. Many people want to drive their Model T Fords and I have no problem with that. But if I had a choice to drive a new Porsche 911 Turbo there would be no hesitation to jump in the Porsche. This is the reason I chose a 375 Ruger for that caliber. People will continue to talk about tradition and how the old stuff works just fine but I definitely choose progress over century old designs. BTW the world is not flat.....that is just traditional thinking. | |||
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| Moderator |
I have no experience with the 416 Ruger, but the Taylors I have shot have been impressive. I can't see there being much practical difference to be honest, so it will boil down to personal preference. I'll keep carrying my Rigby around in my old Ford pickup. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Mark, For all the positives of the .416 ruger, it remains a more or less proprietary cartridge. I can't say that the true wildcat vs the single sourcer are either a better choice, but from a hunting standpoint you have factory ammo and properly marked commercial brass for the ruger. Given you are more a hunter than a gun crank, I would probably leave it as a .458 WM before either, but the ruger is more practical as a tool. | |||
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There are a few places which offer properly head stamped brass for the Taylor and a few which offer "factory" loaded ammo as well. I like the .416 Ruger but already have the Taylor. I expect that I will always be able to buy or make brass for the Taylor. I'm not as sure this is the case with the Ruger. Eric NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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I love making useful Taylor brass from useless 7 magnum. Quite a nice cartridge the 416. Quality cartridge makes correct head stamp brass. Shoots three hundred grain to four hundred grain bullets into a very usable group at one hundred yards. | |||
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| one of us |
I really like the 375 and 416 Taylor and been that route, but with the advent of the 375 and 416 Ruger it will be the death nel for the Taylor calibers with all but the toughest of us old die hards..but the Ruger makes more since I suppose. The taylor is easy to get brass for, any 7 mag., .458 win. or 338 works and its a nice easy recoiling caliber and its deadly..A well designed cartridge as is about any caliber based on the .338 case. Today I would opt for the 416 Ruger over the Taylor or the Remington, its bound to greatnes IMO...I wouldn't run out and sell my 416 Rem, 416 Taylor and buy a Ruger I don't think? wellllll maybe that's not right, on second thought I just might sooner or later. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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please explain the process you use | |||
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IIRC Norma made the 416 Taylor legit by making factory ammo for it. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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I use a Lee die set. The sizer has an expander that will open a 7 mag case mouth most of the time. Some split but the cost was zero. I made this rifle long before the ruger, I suppose now I'd buy a ruger if I was looking. | |||
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