Is the .450/577 even considered a big bore. I am not asking about this with any reference to Africa huning/DG, That is why I am posting my questions in here vice Africa BG hunting. I found one at a good price and am just a little more curious about the caliber. I will probably buy the rifle for a Hearth Queen, BUt I wanna know a little history about the round. I think the rifle is a breech loader. Thanks guys-

Similar to a .45/70.

quote:

NitroX
one of us
Posted 06 February 2006 16:36

Similar to a .45/70.

Nuff Said. I assume that the history is simmilar to the 45-70 as well. I am pretty sure it was successful as a military round. I believe the .303 British replaced the .450/577 as a man killer. Thanks NitroX.

Ben,
I'm afraid it is not accurate to say it is similar to a .45-70, Might be closer to a .45-100. Case capacity seems to be hard to get a handle on but may be in the 85-100 gr range from the various reports that I've heard.

I too am looking for a .577/450 which I would take to Africa. I have found several, not quite the perfect one.

Brass seems to be about $4 EACH.

I'm near Story City, btw. What part of Iowa are you from?

Brent

it's between a big pistol and a period (bp) loaded 45/70.... not so big a bullet at less than 1500fps...

jeffe

Jeffe- what's not so big about 550 gr.?

Me thinks you don't have much experience with bpcrs.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Jeffe- what's not so big about 550 gr.?

Me thinks you don't have much experience with bpcrs.

Brent

Not to quibble, the classic load is what, a 480gr at what, ~1350. .. oh, I am sorry, I did mis-read, was thinking a 380 NOT 480gr, my mistake...


Sorry, slightly better than the 1873 load data for the 45/70...

jeffe

Brent,

I am in Ft. Madison. I am thinking real hard on buying the rifle. What a neat piece of history. If the barrel is not shot out, I might even hunt with it. Great-thanks guys

quote:

Originally posted by .223 VARMINT-VENTALATOR:
Is the .450/577 even considered a big bore. I am not asking about this with any reference to Africa huning/DG, That is why I am posting my questions in here vice Africa BG hunting. I found one at a good price and am just a little more curious about the caliber. I will probably buy the rifle for a Hearth Queen, BUt I wanna know a little history about the round. I think the rifle is a breech loader. Thanks guys-

V.V, the answers you got are right on target! Ballisticlly the 577/450 Martini~Henery is almost a 45-70 twin, with both in their origenal form. One thing you might remember, when discussing British, cartridges, they are named exactly opposite the way American cartridges are. They are named by the parent case first (577) then the bore diameter (.450), then the designation of the load like BPE (black powder express), or NE for Nitro Express (cordite, or smokeless) Example:
577/450 Martini~Henery BPE.

The heaviest bullet it was factory loaded for was a 500 gr lead, in front of 80 grs of FG black powder, for a velocity of 1320 fps, and a muzzle energy of 1939 ME! The military load was a 480 gr lead bullet, that generated 1350 fps, and 1939 ME as well! Kynoch loaded two bullets in this cartridge, a 325 gr, and a 370 gr bulletwith the light bullet getting 1600 fps, but with only 1850 ME

These old cartridges, and rifles are fun to play with, and if one keeps his range within 150 yds, fun to hunt deer with. I don't think I'd use this cartridge on anything dangerous, but it would be a fun hunt for Plains game at close range! Good luck with your search!

quote:

These old cartridges, and rifles are fun to play with, and if one keeps his range within 150 yds, fun to hunt deer with. I don't think I'd use this cartridge on anything dangerous, but it would be a fun hunt for Plains game at close range! Good luck with your search!

My intentions to a "T". Thanks for the history lesson about how the old brass is named. I love learning about any old cartridge, specificly ones I do not have or have never shot. Can any one tell me.....Is the .450/577 Black powder only? I think it is but I am not sure.

I own and regularluy shoot a couple of Martini's and have taken several Kudu and impala with mine. They are"relatively cheep and esy to come by in southern Africa.

Bertram Brass holds 120grns of FFG, and two ox yoke wonder wads behind a 500grn bullet.

Military load was 85grns of No 6 powder behind a large wad of bees wax and a 480grn bullet for the rifle (white paper patch) or 75grns of No 6 powder behind a 420grn bullet for the carbine (red/orange coloured patch on the bullets)

In theory, the rifle rounds have a 30 deg shoulder and the carbine rounds a 20 deg shoulder, so that one can shoot carbine rounds in the rifle but not visa versa.

However- the brits always made their chambers excessivelt large, and both my carbines will hapily chamber original rifle ammo- and are not pleasant to shoot!

One of the problems I have encountered with the Martini is down loading it to original specifications. The original Brit ammo had a cardbord liner inside the case. It ran right arround the inside of the case from the base of the neck down. This cardbord liner was thicker on the carbine rounds than the rifle so as to take up the excess case capacity.

As a reloader though, how the heck to I insert the liner in a formed case? I have resorted to bying .577 basic brass, sliding a liner into the case and then running it through a sizing die and trimming. In youth and folly, the first time I tried this I used cardbord like the originals. The card lasted two firings with a wash in between. Now I use a brass cylender that I have turned up! Ken Stuart started making cases with much thicker case walls and case head area, that held 90grns of powder pluss wads, grease and bullet. Sadly he didn't make enough but I gather he is getting back into production.

Guys most of the info so far is good. Ive taken 3 deer with my martinis last year and this year.

Here is a good site for martinis and sniders.
British militaria forums

The under 150 yar mark is a good recomendation. Ive hit deer further away but my first shot was around 130 and went a little low, requiring the follow up shot.

Took this whitey with one this year.

quote:

Originally posted by .223 VARMINT-VENTALATOR:

Thanks for the history lesson about how the old brass is named. I love learning about any old cartridge, specificly ones I do not have or have never shot. Can any one tell me.....Is the .450/577 Black powder only? I think it is but I am not sure.

I think I've just been dismissed! BYE!

MacD37,



I read your post and appreciated it. I was just wondering if there was EVER a smokeless powder load developed and if it was even possible. I was reading on here about a double someone had bought and it had expossed hammers and there was some debate wether it was a BP or a SP rifle. I did not dismiss you........at least I do not think I did. I am just trying to see what the can be done with the round. Thanks again-

Hoyem in The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition lists 7 loads for the 577/450 in both carbine and rifle versions. Three of these are smokless cordite loads. Bullets were 365, 410 qnd 480 grns in weight velocities were 1425, 1150 and 1350 fps respectively.

BTW John Taylor shot his first few elephants with one but cut his hunt short to get a bigger rifle, a 600 Nitro in this case.

465H&H

Smokeless loads with codrite were common but with todays powders and the 577-450s huge case volume devloping a safe and reliable load is actually quite difficult. On the martini board over the last couple months there has been alot of talk about the different types of fillers. And it seems that kapok is the best one to use.

The huge bottleneck of the 577/450 case makes it dangerous to use certain types of fillers. The only loads that I shoot in my martinis are pure blackpowder or a duplex load except in my 500 #2 express where i have tried some smokeless loads with varying success.

Brett

quote:

Saeed
Administrator
Posted 15 February 2004 16:38
Ladies and Gentlemen,



This an original Martini-Henry, in 450/577, with original Kynoch loaded ammo.

I have seen t advertised as .450/577 and commonly called that too. I take it that is what you mean when you said youve been dissmissed?. The Official name for the round is......?

Ventilator - I know of no bp round that cannot be loaded with smokeless in some fashion. I never ever do. I use bp only but that doesn't mean it cannot be done. If you want some suggestions for bulky powders that are good for this, I can ask around.

But use the bp, and you will have more fun.

The paper patched bullets are way more fun too.

Mac: relax; no one dismissed you.

Brent

.

XMR 5744 powder by Accurate Arms (in the US) would work for a smokeless load.

LD

.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I think I've just been dismissed! BYE!

Hey Ventalator, and Brent, didn't either of you see the "" "" "" ?

Just got back from recess, and read past my post, and saw where it seems folks thought I was miffed! No way Jose!

quote:

Hey Ventalator, and Brent, didn't either of you see the "" "" "" ?

Just got back from recess, and read past my post, and saw where it seems folks thought I was miffed! No way Jose!

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, and (DUGABOY1)

Mac,
Its all good here. Honestly though, I have seen it refered to as the .450/577 vice the 577/450. The correct name is the latter? Correct? Again thanks for the input. Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Don Heath:

One of the problems I have encountered with the Martini is down loading it to original specifications. The original Brit ammo had a cardbord liner inside the case. It ran right arround the inside of the case from the base of the neck down. This cardbord liner was thicker on the carbine rounds than the rifle so as to take up the excess case capacity.

As a reloader though, how the heck to I insert the liner in a formed case? I have resorted to bying .577 basic brass, sliding a liner into the case and then running it through a sizing die and trimming. In youth and folly, the first time I tried this I used cardbord like the originals. The card lasted two firings with a wash in between. Now I use a brass cylender that I have turned up! Ken Stuart started making cases with much thicker case walls and case head area, that held 90grns of powder pluss wads, grease and bullet. Sadly he didn't make enough but I gather he is getting back into production.

Couldn't you just use Dacron (pillow filling) to take up the excess case capacity?