I am going to blame this adventure on Wyoming Gunsmith S.Zhin. Steve posted a new, unchambered .435 barrel for sale, profiled very similarly to the original .425 WR contour and already threaded for a LR Mauser. He was helping out the widow of a gun enthusisast/tinkerer by disposing of a few left-over parts that this barrel was part of. Unfortunately there were no reamers, dies, brass or bullets to go with it, but I am a sucker for a Train Wreck project like this and bought it anyway! I knew this would be a booger since after covid, you can hardly get even the more common Big Bore brass and components, 404 Jeffrey is a good example. Bertram makes brass for it, but there is none in the U.S. that I can find, I checked everywhere for ammo including W.R. U.S.A. and nobody had any. I had a great phone visit with the owner of Quality Cartridge who advised that he may be making a run of brass this summer, so I am on their list. I put WTB in the classifieds here and on a couple of other sites, looking for any dies, components, anything .425 related and got Nada. I called C&H4D and got a roughly 4-6 month lead-time on a set of dies, which I agreed to, but they also said that they did have one neck sizing die in stock, so I bought that as a start while waiting on the full set.
A die will do you no good without brass, most articles/posts recommend forming it out of 404 Jeff, but for whatever reason, it is no more available than the Bastard Stepchild .425! I started looking at the Rem ultra mag cases which are based off the 404 and the 338 Rum was very close length-wise and 338 was a better starting point to open up to .435 than 300 Rum, but again, not to be found. Grafs had 300 RUM, but I happened to stop in a small gunshop and they had a bag of 50 new Rem 338RUM for $95! In this day and time that is not an unreasonable sum, so I bought it. I trimmed the brass back to about .005 over length and then I changed out the expander button in my 404 sizer to 35 cal, used the hornady version of imperial sizing wax and it was easy. I then put in a 375 button, same result. I decided that maybe I ought to neck anneal it at this point to prevent work hardening and possibly splitting the necks. After annealing I went up to 416 and the final was to run it into the .425 WR neck sizer. Voila! perfect looking 425 brass that just needs the finishing trim and probably another annealing to be on the safe side.
At this point, I got online with 4D Reamer Rentals and ordered the reamer and headspace gauges and when they arrive, I can get on with chambering the barrel and setting headspace in the beautifully polished 1935 Chilean M98 that I got from DPCD.
Bullets... Bertram makes them, no luck finding any, Woodleigh does, but we are all still waiting for them to reappear here in the U.S. I ordered 100 of the 400 gr. softs from Hawk, but they are a couple of months out, so that is going to be the final roadblock to getting this project to at least the test-fire stage. This has been an interesting scavenger hunt and hopefully, in a few months it will be a shooting proposition! If anyone should know where I can pick up any additional components, please feel free to PM me, I can use all the help I can get!
Lee.

Very net project. How are you going about mag set up? Wasn't the 425WR commonly single-stack fed?

Enjoy your project.

For bullets
I would be tempted to find a mold then powder coat them.

One can then drive them at rifle velocities.

BG, in all my online research on the subject, somewhere I ran across an article, written in the last few years, that was written by the Mgr of WR/England and he stated that there was never any evidence that the exposed magazine Westleys were single stack. He said he talked to the craftsman who have built them and then looked at original rifles and said that they have always been staggered. No-one involved could ever remember seeing or hearing of an inline version of the drop magazine. Huvius, a member here said that he had had one of the original drop mag WR's and it was indeed, staggered. Interesting! WR now advertises the new .425 with the normal, flush staggered mauser bottom metal, with the original drop mag being an option. In reading up on the subject, I have seen many articles and read in many books where the authors referred to the rifles as having single stack mags that leads me to believe that they never actually had one to shoot and just perpetuated the belief that they had read somewhere else. I have to say, that when looking at pictures of the rifle it LOOKS like an inline mag. I think that I will use the two bolt approach on this build, one bolt with the standard 404 bolt-face and one with the normal bolt face for standard brass if I ever get any! I think that 458 Win mag bottom metal might be a viable choice to work with. This is and will continue to be an interesting learning project.

PDS, If I had not given away all my casting equipment and molds years ago, I would agree that that would be a great option! I will continue to look and see if I can find a custom caster that has a .436 GC mold, but I have had no luck so far. Honestly, I think if I had 500 bullets, at my age, that might well be a lifetime supply!

Hi,Lee...check..gunbroker.com..item 1037107449.. a quantity of ..435WR brass...

I have the less powerful version in an 11.2x60 shuler. I make brass by turning the belts from 458 brass and reducing the head size. No issues at all with feeding. It holds 6 grains less than a 458 case. I run 400 grn bullets at 2150fps.
Do you have the article by Jack Lott on the 425? It's in the 1981 gun digest.
I like that the oldies have not gone away even now!

John, that fellow is a bit proud of his reformed, incorrect headstamped brass, I have invested $100 and a couple of hours of my time doing the same with 50 pieces of rem brass. I appreciate the heads-up, but scalpers just annoy me!

TB40, I have made brass for my 350 Rigby mag doing the same lathe work, using 375 H&H brass, until I got some Bertram that, surprisingly has been good after I reannealed them. I don't know for sure on the Lott article you mention, but somewhere, packed away from my last move is a Petersons Big Bore rifle magazine and I seem to remember there were several articles written by Jack Lott in it and it is from that timeframe. In fact, that was about the time my infatuation with big bores started and my early interest in the .425 WR. I need to go unpack some boxes and find it! Congrats on making your 11.2 a shooter, where are you getting .440 bullets from? Thanks, Lee.

I have 5 boxes of Woodleighs, some Hawks and an RCBS mold that makes a 385 grn flatnose bullet.
I have a ratty old 81 digest. I expect I can pull the Lott pages out of it if you want to read the article.

I would love to read it!

Send me your address Lee. I will cut it out and send it.
Interestingly, Lott said the early 425's worked perfectly. The loss of skilled craftsman in WW 1, meant the time wasnt put into making them feed properly when they resumed making them. That was why the complaints of the "cheap" 425 feed issues arose.

Yes, the 425WR magazines are definitely staggered. The Schuler mags are single stack.

In fact, I once bought a 425 magazine/bottom metal from a guy whom advertised it as a Mauser mag for something like 16 rounds!
I screwed it to an action and he was right! LOL!
That magazine utilized a military floor plate and bottom metal and the actual magazine was stamped - very well done and I believe original Westley Richards work. Perhaps a very early version before the more robust standardized version.
I’m also thinking it had a standard follower in it.
I sold that mag years ago but I’ll see if I can come up with some pictures.

This thread is interesting.

I finished a rifle 2 years ago, it was part of an estate of an old friend, who passed early during Covid.
His wife wanted me to finish it as it was the last rifle he had started working on.

The caliber is a 425 WR.

Now as the new owner and I have been doing more research, that action is a FACTORY UNALTERED Obendorf Mauser 98, that was built for the 11.4 Schuler
Staggered magazine box, and feeds both the 11.4 Schuler and the 425 WR slick as fresh Goose poop on a wet lawn
The action is all matching and dates to 1931

Thankfully the reloading dies, and some brass came with the rifle.
He has picked up a new bullet mold and is shooting the rifle working up a load

From the estate I now have the chambering reamer and headspace gauges, plus while the rifle was in my shop I CAD'ed out the trigger guard

Yes currently making 425 WR cases from RUM brass is about the only way to go

Accurate Molds has several molds he can make for the 425 WR, also Lyman makes a round nose bullet shaped mold for the 43 Spainish that can be sized down to fit the 425 WR

James Wisner

The mold I have drops right about .440. I could send you some, or loan you the mold. Lee could make you a push through .435 die. Run them through, powder coat them, run them through again. Maybe you could get away with powder coating and running them through once.
Most 43 mauser mold drop at .446, a lot of sizing.

J Wisner, do you mean 11.2x72 shuler?
If not, what is the full name of a 11.4?

For others interest here is a scan of the J Lott article from GD 1981.

TB40, thanks much for the offer, I really appreciate it! I just ordered a box of HAMMER brand 410 gr monolithic solids, in stock no less. This will allow me to test fire and make up dummy loads to work out the feeding. The reamer should arrive by the weekend. Again, thanks for the kind offer!

Eagle 27, thanks for posting the article by Jack Lott, it confirms many of my thoughts about misinformation on several aspects of the cartridge and the rifle that just became accepted fact and passed along. One thing that I have yet to find provenance on, is my theory that the rebated rim was more specified to allow the use of stripper clips for fast reloading, and yes, Mauser strippers can be used but only hold four, WR's clips held five. I think this feature came about by WR as a marketing ploy, as they were in competition with other makers, mainly Jeffery, for the relatively new emerging market, at the time, of governmental "Game Rangers" to address problem animals and for culling excess populations. Starting into a herd with five rounds in the mag and one up the spout gave them an advantage over most of the Game Dept issued bare bones 404's which held three down and one in the chamber. Also not to be overlooked is the appeal to the ivory poachers like Taylor, who went into a herd wanting to drop as many Ele's as fast as he could before they got away and six dead Ele's are better than four! And Taylor really loved the .425! Anyway, that is just my pet theory and I think it has merit, but in all my research, I have never found any suggestion that it was true.
I am glad I bought that barrel and got started on this project as it has turned out to be a fascinating experience trying to track down as much information and history on a relatively forgotten and maligned cartridge.

I will be very interested to hear the progress of this project. I am thinking of doing something similar.

Can you share the barrel dimensions? I would love to know what the "profiled very similarly to the original .425 WR contour" looks like.

If you can message me an email address I have an article that I think will help you with your project.

I had a WR 425 that was converted to 458 Win and it fed like poop thu a goose. I loved those side clips but the bore was too heavy so I sold it to a friend of mine that still has it for as I know, but one of us cut the barrel to 20 inches as I recall. Id love a 425 WR.

I have never (before) wanted a .425 WR.

As my friend Ross Murphy is wont to say, "So many calibers, so little time . . ."

Thirdbite, Where did you come up with that info? That is great as I never found any published dimensions and that will be helpfull. My barrel finished out @ 23-1/2. By your dimensions it appears that @ 14" out there is a shouldered step down in the barrel? I never noticed it in the pictures I found online, but that could be a subtle thing that would not be hard to duplicate on the lathe. Thanks.

Thanks!

I've been second guessing myself, and I believe those dimensions and image are an original 404 Jeffery rather than a 425 WR. My apologies. I've removed theposts to avoid confusion.

No harm, no Foul !

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
For others interest here is a scan of the J Lott article from GD 1981.

I recall reading this, back in the day as a much younger man, thinking "hmm" that front sight looks backwards - I have spent way too much time thinking about a single image since, as the ramp points towards the muzzle. I have tried to rationalize that the ramp facing the muzzle MIGHT, just might, make it easier to poke the muzzle through brush, but it's aesthetically unpleasing to me. I think, today at 3 something in the morning (my dog woke me up having to GO, and I haven't been able to go back to sleep) that I have to adopt my wife's attitude when an "Agent" tried to teach her to shoot with the Isosceles Stance ... "Yes, it may work, but it's ugly"

sight in reverse so as to poke it thru the bush is a bit over top old chap!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
sight in reverse so as to poke it thru the bush is a bit over top old chap!

that's why it always bothered me -- here these 40+ years, though i only think of it when the article comes up

Personally I don't like the aesthetics of front sights set back from the muzzle as per Westley Richards and Rigby's. They remind me too much of the old 303 LE Long Tom's.
Much prefer ramps or sights banded or screwed at the muzzle.

My theory on the front sight setback was they figured the muzzle was probably going to get dinged up from rough handling and/or, poor cleaning technique and setting it back left at least one or possibly two opportunities to clean up a damaged muzzle,without removing and resoldering the sight. Even in the field or on the farm, with a hacksaw and a fine file, you can clean up a damaged muzzle enough to shoot straight again. Anyway, that always puzzled me also, but that is the best guess that I can come up with.

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
My theory on the front sight setback was they figured the muzzle was probably going to get dinged up from rough handling and/or, poor cleaning technique and setting it back left at least one or possibly two opportunities to clean up a damaged muzzle,without removing and resoldering the sight. Even in the field or on the farm, with a hacksaw and a fine file, you can clean up a damaged muzzle enough to shoot straight again. Anyway, that always puzzled me also, but that is the best guess that I can come up with.

Your theory does have some merit, the other theory could be that these old gunmakers were astute enough to foresee the use of suppressors hence allowed enough clean barrel at the muzzle for threading for such an accessory

The shape of the front sight is because the hood is a flip over design which flips rearward fitting flush against the rear of the sight.

Huvius, that makes perfect sense and explains that. On the subject of front sight position, I have a couple of English rifles that at some time ,had the muzzle cut back and recrowned and the sight location is more normal appearing by modern standards, and I have seen a bunch that were done likewise.
Monday will be cut the chamber day, if all goes well, by tuesday the barrel should be fitted and ready to test fire. Can't wait!

The latest development on this job, came the day before the reamer arrived, when I realized that I should have slugged the bore to verify its size. I used a Speer swaged .451 lead bullet and tapped it in with a leather mallet, then used a hardwood dowel to run it out to the muzzle. As it turns out, the grooves are .435, but the lands are a very snug .423. When the reamer arrived, the pilot was for .425 and I had neglected to order several additional undersized pilot bushings, this oversight cost me almost another week. The chamber has been cut and polished and the barrel crowned.
The only projectiles that I could find right now were HAMMER copper 410 gr. "Hammer Shock" bullets. I called Steve at Hammer to make sure that there would not be a problem with my tight bore and he told me as long as I started low and worked up, there should be no problems as they are a bore rider type bullet that are grooved to reduce contact area. Steve is very knowlegeable and helpful and I am sure I will be buying more of these bullets.
The barrel is in the action and headspaced, so the next step is to test-fire it. It is sitting in my test stock which is an old opened up military stock . Hopefully I will have time to test fire it tomorrow. This will be a two bolt gun, one with a standard bolt-face and one opened up for the 404 rim, as turning the rims down and cutting a new extractor groove is looking to be a bigger PITA than I first thought. Thats it for now, more to come later.
Lee.

OK, initial test firing was done with 76 gr. of R-15 under the 410 gr. Hammer and everything looks great. I was a bit concerned over the tight bore, so I backed off an extra 2 grains of powder to 76, just to see the results and all is fine, no signs of pressure. Moving on!

As far as brass Quility Cartridge did a run of 425 WR brass a few years ago, I managed to score 200, not cheap getting it to Canada. Checked their website they still have some

Thats awesome. Wish gun magazines still ran this kind of content.

Catching up, when I talked to Quality last month, they had no in- stock .425 brass, but plan to run some this summer.
This barrel is a bit of a mystery as to the maker. It is C/Moly, 6 lands and grooves and is button rifled. When slugged, it came out as .423/.435. but roughly ten inches in, it had a "loose" spot about 4-1/2 inches long. When I had tried to measure twist, I could never get a full rotation of the cleaning rod because when the tight patch hit the loose area, the rod stopped turning, and with the O/A length of 23.5. I finally wised up and marked the rod for 1/2 rotation and kept coming up w/ 20-22" twist!??!
A .425 WR is supposed to have a 1-16" twist, and if you recall, the only bullets I could find in stock,anywhere, was the Hammer 410 gr. monolithic solid and with its 1.542 length, they warned that the twist must be 1-16". Needless to say, at 50 yds, the bullets were making beautiful full profile holes in the target(surprised I even hit it) and it was obvious that whatever my twist really is, it is not 1-16. What to do? Since the Hammers are solid copper, I chucked one gently in the lathe and shortened 3 up to 1.340" and 3 to 1.235, this came out to 330 and 315 grains respectively +/- 1-1/2 gr. The 330 gr. were making slightly egg shaped holes at 50, semi-stabilized, but the shorter 315 gr. were hitting point on and went into 2-1/2 inches with iron sights.
At this point, I can order more of the Hammer bullets and turn them all down, or wait until Hawk comes through with their run of conventional(shorter) soft point 410 gr. and see if they are going to stabilize or not. I bought this barrel as an unknown quantity and have no complaints in that regard, but I am not going to press on until I find out if it will stabilize normal soft point bullets, if it does, Great! if not, I am left wondering who made this barrel and what cartridge was it meant to be chambered in? Either way, when the mystery is solved, I may have to order a new barrel, I will have a .425 Westley Richards chambered rifle!
Lee.

quote:

a new, unchambered .435 barrel for sale, profiled very similarly to the original .425 WR contour and already threaded for a LR Mauser

and, in the humor of the world, the project may come full circle --

hmmm, i wonder if a "loose in the middle" barrel would have a higher vel than otherwise?

Well, the Hawk bullets came in last week and C&H came through with the die set, both companies delivered a bit more than a month before promised and that was a nice surprise!
I loaded up 10 rounds of the Hawk 400 gr. RNSP's in the brass I formed from .338 RUM brass and went to the range. At 50 yards they were perfectly stabilized and even though my cocking piece aperature sight had come loose in its dovetail and was moving a bit under recoil, I
still managed a 3.5" group. Now that I know this unknown, manufacturer,odd twisted(1-20) barrel will stabilize standard lead core bullets, I will move forward on completing this rifle and adding express sights as I cannot bring myself to drill and tap this beautiful Chilean M-98 with Mauser crest on the back bridge. I bought this receiver from Tom (DPCD) and it is perfectly polished with no pitting so it will be stocked classically for irons only.
The next step will be reworking the feed rails on the action to feed the 404 based cartridges. I am still waiting for Quality Cartridge to come through on the rebated rim cases, this rifle has two bolts, one for 404 rim diameter and one for the standard .473 rim 425 W.R. case. The project moves forward!

This summer I bought a 425 WR at a gunshow for not much money, near broke my hand getting out my cash..two weeks later sold it for more than I care too state, but could have made a down payment on Ft, Knox, and even then I had regrets.

FYI... there is a nice Westley Richards rifle in .425WR coming up in next week's Rock Island Auction. Tempted but the hoops you guys have to jump through to make ammo is off-putting to the lazy and less than mechanically inclined!

...did you have an direkt link, Sir, please?