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I am having a 416 Rigby built on a standard 98 action. I have been advised that it would be prudent to have the action opened up only just enough to use 416 Rigby ammo with a COL of 3.6". Federal's stuff is supposed to be no longer than this, but I don't know about anything else. If you have some other brands of 416 Rigby ammo laying around, can you measure and post your results. I am sure it will vary even within each brand based on the particular bullet loaded(i.e where the crimp gouve is). I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | ||
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Why build a Rigby rifle that will not shoot original 3.85" .416 Rigby ammo? Might as well build a . 416 Remington or Ruger. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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He is recreating a famous rifle that was chambered in 416 Rigby. I believe he plans to chamber it to shoot any length Rigby ammo, but the magazine will be limited to 3.600". Matt You might get more answers if you ask for the length from the grove to the tip of the bullet. This way guys who load for the Rem/ruger/& taylor. can measure their bullets and give you this info. Then all you need to do is add the length of the Rigby case. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I am aaware that he wants to build a close approximation of the Selby Rigby but I think that, although it was built on a standard M-98 action, it was built long enough to feed standard Kynoch ammo - which is longer than 3.6" I tested a custom 416 Rigby once that was built with a 3.6" magazine box and it was a pain as you could not load Woodleigh, Swift, Nosler, Barnes or Hornady bullets in it if they were crimped on the canalure and all factory ammo but the Federal with the Trophy bonded loads would not fit in the magazine. My question is why go to the expense and trouble to build such an otherwise nice rifle that will not work with factory ammo? Opening up a standard Mauser for a proper length 416 Rigby can be done - I think Ray Ordorica wrote a piece in Gun Digest about doing it - but it is hard to find a reputable smith who recommends it and even Rigby has stated that they thought it was not a good idea and is why they built most of their 416's on Magnum actions. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Wasn't that why the Magnum action was designed ? For the 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs ? | |||
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one doesn't need to measure the ammo, just some bullets. which i have done most 400gr bullets are .800 from the nose to the center of the crimping groove add that to the brass, and one finds.... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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ever wonder why there is ONE rigby on a standard mauser we can point to, not 100? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Exactly IMHO, going backwards in design. | |||
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why is it that a person can't ask a question and get quality answers? Jeff came closest. there aren't any guys that own rigbys willing to grab their calipers? he wants to build something specific and is willing to spend the money doing so. I've seen a lot of other projects and ideas on here I thought were pure shit, and people actually said nice things about. at least give him an answer before bagging on his project. Red ps and no, I wouldn't do it the exact way he is, but don't fault him for wanting to | |||
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Or, of course, email norma, federal and hornady and ask them OAL questions they will reply "we load to SAAMI .. or CIP" Sorry man, its just going to be that long .. otherwise, loading it .25 short will make PRESSURE issues, opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Maybe because Rigby only built about 100 416s total? I have no idea how many were on the magnum mauser, but some were on the standard mauser and some were on the enfield. Regardless, I think it is a pretty neat idea. Much more interesting than most of the stuff we(myself included) build. No doubt that you can open a standard mauser up to 3.700 as that is how long the PME long magnum boxes were. I don't know how long most factory Rigby cartridges are, but I would bet there are few that come very close to 3.750". And loading it .050(or .100 or .150) short will not cause pressure problems unless you want to really push it. That is a BS argument. DOes the Ruger have pressure problems? And no one here EVER mentioned loading it .250 short, Jeffe. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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perhaps some data would help http://wasabiloco.com/guns/BigBoreAfro.html opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffe From the "data" filled webpage:
None(or very few) of the 180 post war 416s were on mauser actions. Rigby used Enfields then 602s. Of the 169 pre war 416s an unspecified number were on standard actions. I absolutely don't doubt that I could be wrong, but I can't believe you referenced that website for support...
I wonder if even one 416 Rigby has ever been converted to 458WM. (Clearly he was referring to the win mag as that was the only rimless 458 available when the British ammo was becoming scarce) How you would shrink the bolt face? Of course you could just replace the bolt..... Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I would think the rails might be a bit of a problem as well.... The 450 Rigby would work but it has only been around about 20 years. | |||
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I really just wanted some overall lengths of available Rigby Ammo. If anyone would be willing to help me out with my original request, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Sorry. It's just that pissing contests are less work(and more fun) than actually getting ammo out to measure. Anyway, I have one handloaded 416 Rigby cartridge. It measures 3.700. The bullet is a Woodleigh 400gr FMJ which measures .800 from the tip of the bullet to the top of the canulure. Because OLA is normally determined by the bullet used(as the case mouth is generally crimped into the canulure), any factory load that utilizes the Woodleigh 400gr FMJ will be pretty close to 3.700" OAL. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Matt, I have one sample cartridge headstamped "Rigby 416 Nitro" with "K" opposite. I guess it's Kynoch. It measures 3.729 best I can measure. Loaded with a soft, round nosed bullet. Again, I guess original Kynoch factory bullet. The nose is a little battered. Best of luck with your project. cheers, - stu | |||
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Thank you Stu and JBrown. Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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I have Hornady factory 400 gr DGX that measure 3.70" and my hand loads with 400 gr Hornady RN (soft and solid) are loaded to 3.750" Karl Evans | |||
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My rigby wont be here untill next week but it's a ruger #1 and I only handload so that wont help, But all my reloading manuals say that 3.750" is the max c.o.l. Maybe this will help you because that is for any bullet. | |||
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Am I missing something in thinking that a shorter than standard OAL is going to require a sizeable jump to the lands in a standard chamber? Or does the build compensate for that? SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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No, I think you would be correct. But what effect will it really have? Maybe accuracy will fall from .9 MOA to 1.0 MOA. It's a DG rifle, not a bench rest gun. BTW, many M70s in 458 Win Mag had a long enough jump to the lands that their cartridges could be loaded to 3.600" OAL(Lott length). It never seemed to cause a problem. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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ColoradoMatt, 410gr Woodleigh weldcore measures 3.715 seated to the middle of the crimp groove. This bullet is designed for the rigby and has a little longer crimp to nose than most 400ish gr bullets. Wes | |||
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Need to talk to my builder to confirm, but (After much consideration and research) I think I am going to go with having the gun built to handle up to 3.75" OAL. The action will be carburized/hardened. 40K PSI loads should not be a problem. Now I am wondering how many factory loads out there are made over 3.75". Thanks, Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Matt, great choice, imnsho -- if you are going to build a rigby, it "has" to hold a rigby round ... that opinion, and 3 bucks, will buy you coffee at starbucks opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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My guess would be ZERO. I believe 3.750" is the max OAL for the 416 Rigby, so no factory ammo should be longer than this. I know Mr. Shoemaker mentioned 3.850, but I believe he mistyped. Also, my lott is 3.7 and you could get another .050" in the back, but you would need a new boltstop. I'm not sure that last .050 is worth the trouble and expense. Especially if you are shooting handloads 99.9% of the time, and +-75% of factory ammo will fit in a 3.7" mag. Just thinking out loud. I think your project is cool as heck BTW.... Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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"Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges" shows factory max OAL as 3.720". Reloaders nest has quite a few handload OAL's listed in the load detail pages- http://www.reloadersnest.com/q...=88&BulletWeight=400 | |||
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Skipping over all the horseshit, and to provide the OP with some data "Kynoch 416 Rigby K" headstamped factory round measures 3.727 OAL A Collectors Show dummy cartridge HS "ICCA 1985 416 Rigby" has a OAL of 3.731 | |||
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Matt, going with a 3.75 OAL should be fine and do-able. I know a lot of reliable gunsmiths want a little extra room in the magazine box to assure 100% reliable feeding but I have a number of rifles with marginal length in that area and as long as you are aware of it and watch it you should have no problem ---- and one really neat rifle. Keep us all posted Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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All the reloading books and other reference material I have list the Maxd OAL as 3.72" to 3.75" with SAAMI spec'ed at 3.75". I would go with 3.75" length magazine also...although I wouldn't do use a standard Mauser 98 receiver. I'm not a Mauser expert in ANY sense, but from what I read and researched when I wanted to do a similar project prompted me to rejected that action for many reasons...cost can escalate geometrically with all the futzing around that is needed...but it's Matt's money and his dream so my input is of little value. The actual OAL would depend on the bullet, as Jeffe mentioned, or more accurately the location of crimping groove in relation to the bullet length. A bullet designed for the Rigby would have the crimp groove located at such a place as NOT to exceed the SAAMI spec Max OAL, but bullets designed to "fit all" would have the groove located such that it would allow seating for a number of cases. Economic necessity for the makers. You can always put a crimp groove ANYWHERE you want as there is at lease one groove crimping tool available...or not crimp at all by polishing the sizer button to a smaller OD which will grip the bullet tighter, or use a bushing type die and smaller ID bushing. This may or may not keep the bullet stationary in the case with reguards to recoil...you have to test that assumption yourself...it works in my 375 H&H up to 300 gr bullets, 416 Taylor up to 400 gr bullets and 458 WM with 400-450 gr bullets..not sure yet if it will work with my 50 cal with 600 gr bullets. It DOESN'T work in my 356 Win with 220 gr bullets in the tubular magazine...I have to crimp those. There is always the possibility of having your bullet maker put the crimp groove where ever you want...for a price...and it's very simple to put the groove at the correct location for those turning out CNC solids. I think the issue of pressure is moot as this cartridge, loaded to SAAMI pressures will NEVER get cranky if loaded anywhere near SAMMI specs or even 0.050" shorter and I would suspect going 0.100" shorter would hardly matter with this relatively low pressure round...and if it is a concern simply throating slightly longer will cure that. I have run this scenario through Load from a Disk for many different calibers. Changing the seating depth DOES change the pressure but as long as you're not walking on the edge of destruction where ANY change in components will waste your rifle, you don't need to get all lathered up...there are many ways to resolve a small pressure problem. This forum is full of highly knowledgeable people and I always wonder "what the he**" when one of them comes up with something akin to "watch out for the boogyman" when the information given is full of inaccuracy, inuendo and totally un-germane. Pissing contests are a giant waste of time...and the major problem with this forum is for some unknown reason. Many of the responders think it is "fun"...I am just as guilty as the rest, I try not to be, but I do get caught on bad days...it ISN'T fun if you're not part of the "pissing contests are fun" mindset. It must be the attitude here...I don't behave this way on other forums. It doesn't matter what you or I think about someones pet project or the feasability of it...We all have our own take on things. Simply stating the obvious problems without rankor or whizzing all over the place, would go a lot farther in stopping something possibly dangerous or getting someone to rethink their project, or making your point, than by pissing in their boots and/or acting superior...a huge fault on this forum in many cases...not all threads...just this BIG BORE thread more often than not. Matt...I look forward to more information as your project continues on. My 50 cal Rigby is just waiting for the reloading dies so I can get started on load workup. It's on a Ruger receiver and limited to 3.28-3.30" COAL, but I have in the back of my mind to do a switch barrel for a modified Savage receiver which will handle 3.65" 375 H&H right now and I can modify the mag to handle 4.0 plus COAL easy enough and also to shoot military 650 gr at around 4.5" COAL. Could/would you also post the costs and actual modifications if possible. Thanks Luck | |||
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Thanks, once again, to all of you for all of your advice, encouragement, criticism, etc. I especially thank you guys who actually took the time to measure your ammo, which was what I was originally asking for anyway. I am excited to to get this project underway. As stated in another post, it will be quite a while before the action work gets done, as the gentlemen who will be opening up the action and feed work is backloged with work and has health problems. This is somewhat of a blessing, as I can do more research and save more money. Have a nice day. Matt Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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