Have any of you had a rifle proofed, or re-proofed? I took a brief look a the Birmingham gun barrel proof house's website. I might like to have a rifle proofed there. How much pressure is 416 Rigby proof load? Would it be the same now as it was in the late 1940's, or have the proof standards changed since then?

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Have any of you had a rifle proofed, or re-proofed? I took a brief look a the Birmingham gun barrel proof house's website. I might like to have a rifle proofed there.

Someone had photos of a rifle that they had proofed in England. As I recall he said it was simple.

To my untrained eye the proof marks looked pretty classic.

we don't have a proof house in the US -- i imagine it would be a PITA to send over for proving and it would be marked NEM or not english made --

I too would consider it an extended pinky finger breaker to submit for Birmingham proof.

They would do it by CIP specs, latest of which I have are May 15, 2002.

Pmax = maximum average pressure allowed for the working loads = PTmax ("T" is for transducer)

PK = maximum statistical individual pressure of the working load (defined as 1.15 x Pmax)

PE = mean proof pressure, which is found to be either one of three things:

1. PE = 1.25 x Pmax in an English section of print = "mean proof pressure"

2. PE = 1.30 x Pmax in a French section of print = "pression moyenne d'epreuve"

3. PE = some stated pressure that is lower than the above.

The case of the .416 Rigby is number 3:

Pmax = 3250 bar = 47,125 psi
PK = 3738 bar = 54,201 psi
PE = 4060 bar = 58,870 psi

The proof load is only 24.9% higher than the Pmax. Not 25%, not 30%.

Note the 450 Rigby pressures:
Pmax = 4000 bar = 58,000 psi
PK = 4600 bar = 66,700 psi
PE = 5000 bar = 72,500 psi

That used a 1.25 X factor for proof.

Thanks for the info RIP, JBrown and Jeff. Jeff, I don't care if it gets marked as not English made. I will likely leave this rifle to one of my kids when I pass from this life. If they ever have to sell it, a proof mark might give a buyer peace of mind about its safety, and perhaps add some value as well.

If it is for piece of mind you can proof it yourself, and mark it as such.

The old British method of proofing was just to use a full powered load that was lubed heavily externally.

the old english method was to use a standard load, with a 1.2X weiight bullet ...

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
If it is for piece of mind you can proof it yourself, and mark it as such.

I wouldn't have any confidence in anyones "bubba" proof testing. I'm sure you can fake a proof mark, but a mark from a real proof house would give me a good measure of confidence in safety. A "real" proof house would most likely have the proper equipment and extensive experience to determine how a gun has been effected by proof loads. To be honest, I will have a great deal of confidence in the safety of this rifle, as such rifles have been made before, i.e. Harry Selby's. As I stated before, it is for some future owner's of this rifles peace of mind (hopefully after I am dead) that I would like to have this rifle prooved. Also to perhaps add some sale value, but that really isn't that important to me, as I am not likely to ever sell it.

you can buy an RSI straingauge and meausure the pressure.

a 1.2x bullet weight is NOT a "bubba" method, matt, that's what the proof houses do for something that hasn't have a wide calling and therefore doesn't have a carefully crafted pressure load ...

its only how the british proofhouses do it.

None of your American made rifles have one. Why bother? It will not add a dollar to the value. Want to proof it, just go to the loading book and charge a case with the 2600fps 416 Wbee load in any manual...

Rich

Guys, Matt is building a 416 Rigby on a standard M98. He has gone to great lengths to faithfully reproduce Harry Selby's Rigby.

He will gain four things by going to the trouble of having it proofed in London:
-He willhave the piece of mind of knowing it is safe.
-He will have real proof marks(cool factor) and the paperwork to back it up.
-He will shut-up those who will contend that it is not safe.
-Any future potential owners will know that the rifle is safe.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Why bother? It will not add a dollar to the value.
Rich

NOI but are you high? Of course it will add to the value. It will serve as proof that the rifle has been deemed safe by a respected organization.

Most people would be leery of buying a 416 Rigby built on a M98. The proof marks will put their minds at ease.

One consideration in "proof testing" -- If the load exceeds spec it may very well create micro fractures in the action/barrel. Unseen, they weaken the gun, and then standard loads continue to hammer at the fractures until the gun fails.

Not saying it's a sure bet. I'm saying it's a long shot, and ought to be considered in any "proof" testing beyond normal SAAMI loads.

Unless he is having this rifle built by a "name" maker he may well spend more $$$ than the rifle cost in the first place, to find a firearms broker who can wade the morass of paperwork here and get said rifle to the UK. Then, of course, he will pay someone there to guide it thru their quagmire of paperwork, and get it to a proof house. They, of course will be so impressed by some foreigner's desire to have it proofed at their establishment that they will immediately rush it to the head of a list of several thousand firearms built by their countrymen and proof test it. Unless of course, they think this is as dumb as a box of rocks, and refuse to do so, after months or years of deliberation.
Assume it is done, then we can reverse this convoluted process, and arrange for it to be returned to the US. They of course, will look at a surplus military rifle (action), and under current rules and possibly refuse it re-entry.

Didn't we have some sort of crap ruling by the obammy administration banning such firearms (mil surp) being imported a while back?
IF, it is allowed back in, will they not want some $$$ under some ruling or other?

No offense, but have you given this some serious thought and research and come up with a dollar and time outlay estimate on the process, or are we the body selected for a survey of feasibility? I mean, it sounds like you want somebody else to test fire it for you. Have the gunsmith do that. There's a good reason there aren't a million of these floating around Africa or here.

regards, but puzzled

Rich

Proof houses are a bureaucratic joke. They were probably intended to protect internal firearms manufacturers from imports.

I agree with all Idaho Sharpshooter has stated in that post.

I highly discourage everyone from proofing with a home made "blue pill" load. That is a good way to get killed.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Proof houses are a bureaucratic joke. They were probably intended to protect internal firearms manufacturers from imports.

Maybe, but they also protect from Shoddy workmanship,

a fair bit of which is seen in the US - ie reboring a 375 2 1/2" gun to 375 Fl Magnum
to increase it's value when the action can't handle the new round.


In regards to JD Randall's
"One consideration in "proof testing" -- If the load exceeds spec it may very well create micro fractures in the action/barrel. Unseen, they weaken the gun, and then standard loads continue to hammer at the fractures until the gun fails.

Not saying it's a sure bet. I'm saying it's a long shot, and ought to be considered in any "proof" testing beyond normal SAAMI loads."


That's the benefit of a proof house, long term experience, they know what to look for afterwards, they know what works / doesn't to an extent.

They won't let a gun go out if it is not safe - no if's, but's or maybe's.

.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

a 1.2x bullet weight is NOT a "bubba" method, matt, that's what the proof houses do for something that hasn't have a wide calling and therefore doesn't have a carefully crafted pressure load ...

I wasn't referring to the 1.2 X bullet weight method as a "bubba" method of proof testing. I was referring to any non-industry amateur performing their own testing and then marking the rifle as being adequately tested, as"bubba testing".

quote:

I mean, it sounds like you want somebody else to test fire it for you. Have the gunsmith do that. There's a good reason there aren't a million of these floating around Africa or here.

regards, but puzzled

Rich

Rich:
That part of your statement makes me think that you aren't really reading my posts, and then making a knee jerk statement. If I am wrong, I sincerely apologize. However, I clearly stated that I have confidence in the strength of the rifle. It is for peace of mind of any future owner that I would like to have the rifle proofed, along with most of what JBrown stated above.

As for what you said about the extreme cost and difficulty of getting this rifle proofed, what knowledge (first, second, or third hand?) do have to back this up? I am not trying to be a smart @$$, I really would like to know, so that I can be prepared for the worst. I thank you for your input, even if it may not be exactly what I want to hear.
Matt

What if it fails the proof test?

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
What if it fails the proof test?

Then the cost of proof testing would be money very well spent!

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
What if it fails the proof test?

Then the cost of proof testing would be money very well spent!

+1

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
As for what you said about the extreme cost and difficulty of getting this rifle proofed, what knowledge (first, second, or third hand?) do have to back this up? I am not trying to be a smart @$$, I really would like to know, so that I can be prepared for the worst. I thank you for your input, even if it may not be exactly what I want to hear.
Matt

I did some searching and was unable to find the post by the guy who had his custom rifle proofed(he was from the US IIRC, and he said that is was not difficult).

I think there are way too many people guessing on this thread.

well guy's

here in europe it really is not all that hard, if you want london or birmingham proof, you send your gun to a RFD(retail firearms dealer) holder, and they transport it to the proof house and have the ugly deed done.

you can talk to diggory at www.vintageguns.co.uk
and i am sure he can help you out with this, this usually lies with inn the cost of 3-500$, time is usually around a few months at the most.

next another very importent reason, we as gunmakers love the proofing system, is when a gun that we make is getting into the hands of a less than savy handloader, which fills the case with blue dot, put a heavy bullet on top, and then actually fires the gun and in the process rips his head clean off, his widow will off course sue as she is american and it is her god given right to do so.....

well the proof marks shows what the gun were proofed for so she has no grounds for the lawsuit, and wont be abel to tuch a EC company in this respect.

hopefully the gunmaker will send a nice flower arrangment for the funeral but that is about all he needs to do.

best

peter

Thank you Peter. Just the info I was looking for.
Matt

Matt,

not trying to be cross. You said something about a "future owner"'s concerns. You would go to all this time and expense for that? The proof marks are not a warranty. It shows that one one day a proof load was fired in that weapon. You would have to store it, unfired, for that to have any relevance.

In the end, if it makes you happy, go for it.

regards,

Rich

When Proof testing a rifle they useually try some high psi loads and some medium loads. but those higher psi loads are for that guy that goes higher then the load book says
My self I go to the line.

proofing is NOT a test if it will take a standard load .. it is will it take over pressure loads and not break, therefore assuming that proof loads will not be used again.

rich -- if you dont get it, then let it go.. proofing a 416 rigby on a model 98, from a proof house, means the gun was determined by EXPERTS to be safe for standard loads, and documented as such. not shade tree tested. to me, it doesn't have an return on investement, but to each their own.

he is making an heirloom, which is his concern about future owners

It should be mentioned that the procedure of proofing is not simply firing an overpressure test load (as a rule of thumb up to 30 % over max. allowed pressure -details concerning .416 Rigby posted above).
Bore and chamber measurements are made , headspace measurements before and after testfiring.
If they don´t meet the specs the rifle will be rejected.
Certainly not a lifetime garantee at least not for those who fire red hot loads.
But imho I feel much better behind a proofed rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Matt,

not trying to be cross. You said something about a "future owner"'s concerns. You would go to all this time and expense for that? The proof marks are not a warranty. It shows that one one day a proof load was fired in that weapon. You would have to store it, unfired, for that to have any relevance.

In the end, if it makes you happy, go for it.

regards,

Rich

rich

the proof process is actually a warranty, it safegards you that as long as you use factory loads in this specific gun you will not get hurt because of dogdy craftmanship or bad steel selections etc.

best

peter

quote:

Proof houses are a bureaucratic joke. They were probably intended to protect internal firearms manufacturers from imports.

Not a bad place to start...and one that in reality it is hard to disagree with.

Anyway. Time to lay a few "myths" about "Proof" here in the UK to rest:

1) "Not English Make" - Doesn't exist any longer and hasn't done for over fifty plus years. So any none-British firearms prooved in the UK won't have it.

2) Lubing the proof round. Correct. Done with rifles to increase the back thrust onto the bolt lugs.

3) Backlog of "thousands". Not true. In fact you can walk into the Proof House and ask for "Proof On Demand". A 50% surcharge on the fee is charged.

4) Paperwork. Not entirely correct. In fact it may be that you can take advantage of our law here that says that nothing in our Firearms Act applies to ANY transaction involving the Proof House.

So, in theory, you could just arrive in UK with the gun (assuming your US paperwork was correct) and take a taxi to the Proof House, have it prooved "on demand", and take a taxi back to the airport! Or maybe UPS could deliver it for you from the USA to the Proof House and deliver it back to you afterwards?

5) $300-500. Not what the Proof House will charge you. That is set down in law. A single barrel charge is about UK £20 although there is a "minimum charge" but even so you rifle should not cost more than, say, UK £50 even "on demand".

6) The Proof Test. If the Proof House don't actually have a round of the calibre you rifle is chambered for (say some odd "wildcat" that you've made) they won't actually fire anything through it! Just give you a piece of paper known as a "Certificate of Inability to Proof".

7) Is it worth it? Here in Britain proof is law. You can't sell a gun without it. But there are many who have a poor opinion of the whole thing. In some respects it is a charade. take Imperial German Proof Marks.

Once they were legal in UK. Then we went to war. So they were no longer legal. Then many years after the war, when we were friends, they were legal again. Now, I think, there no legal. Total nonsense! Nothing to do with "safety" or anything but politics!

8) Personal imported firearms don't need to be sent to proof. I personally imported from Harrison Carroll some fine Smith & Wesson revolvers. Never ever had then sent to proof.

9) Is it harmful to the gun? Well do they hit every single motorcyle helmet with a hammer to see if it is suitable or not? Of course they don't!

Proof is ultimately very crude. On the lines of we will subject to the gun with a large overload and if nothing blows up or swells or bulges then it is OK! Real "rocket science" for who knows what damage that overload has now done?

10) In the USA is it valid? I would doubt it and what happened to the H P White Laboratories that Elmer Keith used to test guns for safety with a "blue pill"?

Indeed a lawyer might argue what I voiced in 9) that the Proof Test has actually weakened the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Proof houses are a bureaucratic joke. They were probably intended to protect internal firearms manufacturers from imports.

Not a bad place to start...and one that in reality it is hard to disagree with.

Anyway. Time to lay a few "myths" about "Proof" here in the UK to rest:

1) "Not English Make" - Doesn't exist any longer and hasn't done for over fifty plus years. So any none-British firearms prooved in the UK won't have it.

2) Lubing the proof round. Correct. Done with rifles to increase the back thrust onto the bolt lugs.

3) Backlog of "thousands". Not true. In fact you can walk into the Proof House and ask for "Proof On Demand". A 50% surcharge on the fee is charged.

4) Paperwork. Not entirely correct. In fact it may be that you can take advantage of our law here that says that nothing in our Firearms Act applies to ANY transaction involving the Proof House.

So, in theory, you could just arrive in UK with the gun (assuming your US paperwork was correct) and take a taxi to the Proof House, have it prooved "on demand", and take a taxi back to the airport! Or maybe UPS could deliver it for you from the USA to the Proof House and deliver it back to you afterwards?

5) $300-500. Not what the Proof House will charge you. That is set down in law. A single barrel charge is about UK £20 although there is a "minimum charge" but even so you rifle should not cost more than, say, UK £50 even "on demand".

Amazing how things look different when you get good information.

PeterDK,

and just whom, may I ask, stands behind that with $$$ should an injury occur? The US is litigation plagued. I have several CZs. None have come with a certificate guaranteeing loss of income, payment of medical bills, or compensation should the firearm have an issue.

JBrown,

I am pleased to learn this. With a round trip plane ticket from Denver this could be accomplished for $2000, more or less. CZ brings thousands of firearms a year into the US. How do they manage this if each one must be logged in, inspected, fired, re-inspected and then get here? I am not cross with anybody, it just seems as if there have to be a lot of people involved...

Rich

Rich
I'm guessing it could be a fun trip if he took the rifle for proofing and did some window shopping at some of the famous gunmakers in town.

Quite a few people invade my hometown to tour around tasting wine for a couple of days. I doubt many spend less than $2k.....

Give me Rigby and H&H any day.

Thank you RIP!!

Rich

Welcome, Rich.
If I ever have one, I want the floor plate engraved: HARRY 1949 SELBY

Thanks RIP.Hope you recover well.

Thanks, shootaway, same to ya!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Proof houses are a bureaucratic joke. They were probably intended to protect internal firearms manufacturers from imports.

Not a bad place to start...and one that in reality it is hard to disagree with.

Anyway. Time to lay a few "myths" about "Proof" here in the UK to rest:

1) "Not English Make" - Doesn't exist any longer and hasn't done for over fifty plus years. So any none-British firearms prooved in the UK won't have it.

2) Lubing the proof round. Correct. Done with rifles to increase the back thrust onto the bolt lugs.

3) Backlog of "thousands". Not true. In fact you can walk into the Proof House and ask for "Proof On Demand". A 50% surcharge on the fee is charged.

4) Paperwork. Not entirely correct. In fact it may be that you can take advantage of our law here that says that nothing in our Firearms Act applies to ANY transaction involving the Proof House.

So, in theory, you could just arrive in UK with the gun (assuming your US paperwork was correct) and take a taxi to the Proof House, have it prooved "on demand", and take a taxi back to the airport! Or maybe UPS could deliver it for you from the USA to the Proof House and deliver it back to you afterwards?

5) $300-500. Not what the Proof House will charge you. That is set down in law. A single barrel charge is about UK £20 although there is a "minimum charge" but even so you rifle should not cost more than, say, UK £50 even "on demand".

Amazing how things look different when you get good information.

Believe what you want to believe.
The US manufactures far more fireamrs without a national proof law than the Brits ever dreamed of. Today the British firearms trade is almost invisible. The added cost of the proof bureaucracy helped do that.

And thanks to Bulldog for reminding us of this Joe Coogan photo of Selby's Ol' Girl "Sally":

1949? I was born that year...

Rich