I was at the range this week to work up some new loads for my .404 Jeffery. The rifle is a CZ which I got about a year ago. My original load was a Norma case, Federal 215 magnum primer, 75 grains of RL 15 and a 400 grain Woodleigh roundnose soft. That load was running at 2262 fps and accuracy was superb.

I wanted to try and duplicate the original ballistics so I thought that I would give IMR 4831 a try. The original Cordite load was 60 grains so I used the Cordite/IMR 4831 conversion rate of 1.333 and started with a load again using a Norma case, Federal 215 magnum primer, 79 grains of IMR 4831 and a 400 grain Woodleigh roundnose soft. That load produced a velocity of only 1950 fps. I went up to 81 grains of IMR 4831 and that load was running at 2032. Eighty-three grains of IMR 4831 was running at 2153 fps. Eighty-four grains gave me a velocity of 2178 fps and 85 grains gave me 2230 fps. I think I am going to stick with the 83 grain load. That should be about perfect. Pressures appear quite modest and recoil is very manageable. First chance I get, I will put this load on paper to see how it is shooting.

Dave

thanks Dave
good report!

Dave,
With IMR-4831 I suggest you use 93 grs. your loads are too light and that can cause double ignition according to the well informed..My max load in all my 404 was 95 grs. and it was not excessive in any of them..It was also tested by North fork and several gun editors..It does recoil severly at 95 grs. 93 grs. gave me 2450 and that is what I was looking for.

Why not stick with the RL-15 load?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Why not stick with the RL-15 load?

Will, the RL 15 was indeed a great load. However, I was just trying to get back to the original Kynoch ballistics for two reasons. First, just because of tradition. Back in the day, the .404 made its' reputation with a 400 grain bullet at around 2125 fps. That is still 4000 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. It should be just as effective now as it was then. Second, the IMR 4831 produces just a bit less recoil. It's not much of a difference but I am just recovering from surgery for a detached retina and I am trying to do what I can so I don't tear it loose again. Besides, if I want to shoot something faster, I have a .416 Rigby.

As I indicated, I have to put this load on paper to see how it is shooting. If it is not grouping, I will go back to the RL 15 load.

Just as an aside for those that don't have any experience with a .404, I would urge you to give it a try, expecially if you are sensitive to recoil. Like the .375 H&H, it is one of the easier of the big bores to shoot. I just think it is a superb cartridge and I can undetstand why it bacame so popular so many years ago.

Dave

P.S. For anyone using my load data, please see Ray's caveat about. As always, use this data at your own risk.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

It does recoil severly at 95 grs. 93 grs. gave me 2450 and that is what I was looking for.

Ray, how come you didn't just go with a Rigby instead of the .404?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Why not stick with the RL-15 load?

Will, the RL 15 was indeed a great load. However, I was just trying to get back to the original Kynoch ballistics for two reasons. First, just because of tradition. Back in the day, the .404 made its' reputation with a 400 grain bullet at around 2125 fps. That is still 4000 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. It should be just as effective now as it was then. Second, the IMR 4831 produces just a bit less recoil. It's not much of a difference but I am just recovering from surgery for a detached retina and I am trying to do what I can so I don't tear it loose again. Besides, if I want to shoot something faster, I have a .416 Rigby.

As I indicated, I have to put this load on paper to see how it is shooting. If it is not grouping, I will go back to the RL 15 load.

Just as an aside for those that don't have any experience with a .404, I would urge you to give it a try, expecially if you are sensitive to recoil. Like the .375 H&H, it is one of the easier of the big bores to shoot. I just think it is a superb cartridge and I can undetstand why it bacame so popular so many years ago.

Dave

P.S. For anyone using my load data, please see Ray's caveat about. As always, use this data at your own risk.

Just decrease the RL-15 charge by a few grains and you are there. Supposedly the fewer grains of RL-15 compared to 4831 should give you less recoil.

And the CZ is probably what is giving you the accuracy. They have always been super accurate for me, though they are McGowan barrels in the Jeffery case as opposed to factory barrels (at least they were).

There is a noticable difference in the 2400 fps 416 Taylor loads and the squibs at 2150 fps I load for practice. Big surprise, eh?

Good info Dave.

I had my 404 out today as well, but I didn't have the chrono. Will take it back next week and report on velocity... These were 380 North Forks.







FYI - 86gr was at or near 100% case capacity (without using a drop tube.)

Does anyone make factory loads for the 404? Just curious.

Good info. I understand your desire to seek ballistics below the 416 and above the .375. Why not diversify? The 404 and 450/400 really do fill a niche with regards to effectiveness and recoil. I've often thought of getting one or the other, but I guess I can always load down the 416. The recoil on my remington isn't bad anyways.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Does anyone make factory loads for the 404? Just curious.

Norma -- although I am not sure you can find it.

Kynoch lists it.

Custom loaders like Superior Ammo.

2200 fps with a 400gr bullet keeps the 404 a 404.... anything more is unneeded hotrodding... and, well, the 404 is meant to be low kicking and hard hitting to duplicate the 450/400 in a bolt gun.

Ray, like all internet data, one should take it with a block of salt, but 2 grains will NOT result in a "double" ignition.. thats less than 2.3% difference and a federal 215 won't care

/

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Does anyone make factory loads for the 404? Just curious.

Good info. I understand your desire to seek ballistics below the 416 and above the .375. Why not diversify? The 404 and 450/400 really do fill a niche with regards to effectiveness and recoil. I've often thought of getting one or the other, but I guess I can always load down the 416. The recoil on my remington isn't bad anyways.

One of the really nice things about the .416 Remington is that it is easy to load it down to .404 velocity by simply switching from RL 15 to RL 19. Check the Alliant website. They show a RL 19 load running at 2140 fps. with a 400 grain Hornaday. If I still had my .416 Remington, that is the load I would be using.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Does anyone make factory loads for the 404? Just curious.

Kynoch, Norma, RWS, Wolfgang Romey. Also, it would seem a natural progression for Hornady to offer it in the future, as they are making .400 Jeffery cases and ammo now. Dimensionally, the .404 is just a rimless version of the same basic case.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The CZ .404 Jeffery rifles from the first batch do have McGowen 10" twist barrels, made when Harry McGowen was still owner.

I decided to use mine with very-near-traditional ballistics produced by a case full of H4831SC, 88.0 grains, with 400-grain Woodleigh softs or old Kynoch solids I need to get rid of.

This load is right around 2200 fps (in my 25" CZ barrel) with 400-grainers. Low pressure and low recoil. About +/- 25 fps per inch of barrel length change.

Here are the initial iron sight adjusting shots with my CZ, I keep records to know where the express sights shoot, for future adjustment reference. The rifle was shooting like this, straight from the factory:



I do not think you can get into trouble at all if you use H4831SC, it is impossible to get enough powder into the case to give excessive pressure, with either a 400 grain Woodleigh or a 380-grain North Fork.

The Lothar Walther barrels are said to be tighter. Mike Brady slugged his at .4226".

Krieger barrels advertise their groove diameter as .424"

McGowen Barrels on the CZ probably slug closer to what the Krieger's do. They are not as tight as a Lothar Walther, IMHO. My gunsmith slugged one Mcgowen barrel on another .404 Jeffery I own and he said it was "correct" for a .423 (404) whatever that means. That rifle is a superb performer but gives lower velocities than Mike Brady's LW barrel with .4226" grooves. Mike is precise.

Here is some pressure and velocity data that Mike Brady got with H4831SC in his "tight" barrel by LW, 1:14" twist
26-Inch Barrel/380-grain Bullet:
.404 Jeffery
Norma brass
Federal 215 primer
H4831SC Extreme powder
.423-caliber/380-grain North Fork "Soft"

82.0 grains >>> 2303 fps >>> 45,200 psi (95% load)
86.0 grains >>> 2414 fps >>> 49,100 psi (99% load)
90.0 grains >>> 2500 fps >>> 55,200 psi (103% and compressed, or 100% if drop tube used)

H4831SC would be AR2213SC, the Aussie powder.

Good report ,dave. For whats its worth, heres some data i worked up in mt 404 jeff, built by Brockman with a Lothar Walther 23.5 inch barrel.

I dont have any data on 400 gr woodleighs; With 387 gr GSI solids:
IMR 4350 90 gr 2385fps
92 gr 2437 fps

With rl15, and hawk 300gr expanding bullets:
80 gr 2211 fps
82 gr 2364
84 gr 2442
85 gr 2506
86 gr 2520

No pressure signs, BELL brass, 215 primers

I have found the .404 is a better killer of Buffalo at 2400 to 2450 FPS so why would I want to short myself by loading it down to original specs of 2100 FPS..I have used the original spec ammo a few times and it works but the extra velocity is better..

I don't see anyone loading their 416 Rigbys or .416 Remingtons down to 2100 FPS, soooo?

Dave Bush,
I have always prefered the .404 over the 416 Rigby because it has a larger cross section bullet and that may or may not be a good reason.

The 404 can be driven at about the same velocity and all this can be done on a standard M-98 action and that keeps the gun slim, trim, lean and mean, and not so bulky as the .416 Rigby. I don't like big bulky rifles.

The more I hunt the more I like the .416 Rem as the best all around caliber for Africa.

If I had a big action suitable for a .416 Rigby, then I would build a 505 Gibbs or something on that order and sell it, as it will always bring a premium price..