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I currently own a Winchester M70 Stainless/synthetic classic .375 H&H magnum that I have successfully used on coastal Alaskan Brown bear and will be using for an upcoming buffalo hunt in 2012. I have been thinking lately about the ranges at which dangerous game is usually hunted and the thought of purchasing something specifically for DG has been on my mind. I like the .375 for everything except for the idea of stopping really big stuff up close and personal. If you already owned a .375, what would be your next purchase? By the way, I'm not interested in any .416 calibers. I know they are versatile with good ranging qualities but I already have that in the .375 H&H. I'm thinking strictly for ranges of up to 40 - 60 yards. I guess part of this rant is that a friend and I have been taking his Krieghoff .470 NE to the range lately and I find it quite managable to shoot; even after eight to ten rounds. I think there is something about the 2100 - 2150 FPS velocity that is comfortable for me to shoot. What do you all think about the .470 NE for this type of situation? I do prefer double rifles when the calibers start with a .4 or .5. I do not know why, just a personal preference I guess. Anyway, your thoughts. Thanks. jfm | ||
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I would pick a full-power .458 or .470. George | |||
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How big is your check book? Sounds like your trying to talk yourself into buying a nice 470 Double? Posting a question like this hear is like walking into a bar and shouting out who wants another round on me? Go for it! Brad | |||
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I definitely think you are on the right track...I would opt for a Searcy Double Rifle in 500 NE, either 3.0" or 3.25" using CEB #13's or NonCon's in 570 gr/535 gr Rx's, respectively. The 500 NE has always been a great killer of game, and is, especially with the new/newest ammo from mfrs. like GSC, CEB, NF, and Barnes (oops, not Barnes anymore ), an even better choice at ranges inclusive of both paces and yards. Best of luck with deciding...we all know how much of a pain the "New Gun Choice" always is! Respects, Phill | |||
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It's too expensive to learn how to shoot with a double rifle.I would master the bolt action and then move on to a double, if you desire to own one.I think a 500NE would be the best choice. | |||
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470 or 500NE. 500NE is a step up over a 470 but both will do the job. | |||
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Unless you want a dedicated Elephant rifle, I'd opt for a bolt rifle in 458 Lott, 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffery, 458 Win Mag, etc. | |||
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I truly believe I am trying to talk myself into a double gun. I am already pretty accurate with my friend's .470 at 40, 30 and 20 yards and do not find it as punishing as the .416 Remington magnum I used to own. I recently saw a Merkel and a Krieghoff up at Cabela's Gun Library for around $9K each. One was in .470 NE and the other a .500 NE. I really prefer double guns when the caliber is .400 and up and there is probably no good reason for it except that I love the looks of them and the cartridges all seem to travel about 2100 FPS which I am very comfortable shooting. Thanks for your replies so far. jfm | |||
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I think the idea of a double rifle is lovely. If you're comfortable with the recoil of a 470 NE, I think you should go for it unless you get a chance to shoot a 500 NE double rifle and are comfortable with that level of recoil. You may think the 500 NE is the cat's meow, or it may be over your recoil tolerance and hate it. For me, I'm shooting a 500 Jeffery and a 570g bullet at 2300 fps is just fine and fun to shoot, for some reason the same bullet at 2410 fps just punishes me a bit. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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If your little gun is to be a 375 then I would skip the 458 caliber for something bigger like the 505 Gibbs. Both the 375 and the 458 shoot the 300 and 350 grain weight bullets, thus my suggestion of over lap. The 505 Gibbs give the range of 525 to 600 grain bullets, which is much more in the way of SMACK. Sincerely, E Pluribus Unum - where out of many, we will become one. | |||
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+1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Virginia Creeper and PD99, I like the way you guys think. I do, however, really like the doubles and will go as big as possible for up close and personal. I will not waste time on one step up from a .375. I believe the .505 Gibbs may be too much for me to handle which is why I am thinking .470 NE. I can handle the recoil, I'm pretty accurate with it and it may be my limit. I'd love to try the .500 NE as I'm told it really does make a difference in the way it puts down game. Thanks for your input. jfm | |||
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If one reloads then the 505 Gibbs can be loaded down to say a 525 bullet at 2,000 feet per second. This is less than the 458 Win. factory load and less than the 470 factory. If you like double barrel, think of down loading the 500 NE for practice. Save the full bore speed for the Elephant. Sincerely, E Pluribus Unum - where out of many, we will become one. | |||
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The 500 does put down game with more Authority than those below it. . | |||
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What a PAINFUL situation to have to make this decision, my heartfelt sympathies! I have two .375s and have had five others and have a Browning Safari LE .458WM. For MY uses, here in BC, this rifle, with one of my several .338WM or 9.3x62 rifles is about perfect with 400-450 SAFS or Kodiaks, mof which I have a large supply. However, I am a boltman, after owning and using about everything else and for YOUR needs, I would go with a bolt rifle in .458Lott as the most practical companion to your trusty .375. That said, if you want a double and I can understand why, my first pick would be a Heym in .470 or a .500 if you feel comfortable with it. When I practice, I am pretty "recoil proof" and shoot my light, custom P-64-.375H&H Grizzly rifle quite well. I can do OK with the .416s, but, for sheer stopping ability, I would go with the above and just practice enough to feel good with the kick. Jeez, tho', poor guy, how tough it is to have to stressout trying to decide to buy a double rifle when you can afford it.....must be sheer hell, kinda like bedding J-Lo....... | |||
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I'm beginning to think some of you guys are trying to talk me out of a double rifle and go for the more reasonable bolt. Probably a smart move as I know I could load down the Lott to about 2100-2150. Perhaps I should think a little longer on the matter but I sure do like the looks of the double. Anyway, I'm thinking .470 NE, .500 NE or .458 Lott at this point, and in that order. All of your input is greatly appreciated and that is why I post here. The vast amount of you guys have great ideas ! Thanks, jfm | |||
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Please stop teasing up, just buy the double and post some pictures! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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jfm, If I was the lucky SOB in your position, I would simply buy the gun that I wanted. I would try the .500 to see if I was comfortable with it, but at the end of the day, you can't go wrong with either calibre. Its putting the bullet in the right place that matters the most. She was only the Fish Mongers daughter. But she lay on the slab and said 'fillet' | |||
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Sorry double guys, not much on the doubles myself, and since jfm already knows how to work the bolt on the WONDERFUL Winchester M70 I would suggest one of the B&Ms if jfm is a hand loader, but there is a "book peddler" running around that would accuse me of being a pimp, so one could not go wrong with a good Winchester M70 in 458 Lott, oh my, I just happen to have 4 very nice Win M70 458 Lott's for sale, nice english and turkish stocks already installed? Hmmmmm? LOL........... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I dream of owning a double one day myself but its out of reach for me atm. Kreighoff and Merkels with ejectors would be at the top of my list in 500 NE. In a much more reasonable gun I would seriously consider the 500 MDM. It is the most sensible big bore bullet design on the market IMO. No belt...plenty of powder capacity and you can get more in the magazine than the oversize 50's. Michael is going to accuse me of sacriledge but I would love to see one in a GMA action with a McMillan stock and Sunny Hill bottom metal. I'm partial to synthetics because it won't break my heart if I scratch it. | |||
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I was in the same position five years ago. I'm a lefty, and my Africa rifle was a M70LH in 375. Krieghoff made me a very nice offer on a LH 470 at the SCI show, but after some contemplation I passed because of insufficient experience with doubles, and not much skill with a S x S shotgun. I bought a M70LH and re-barreled it to 458Lott. No regrets. At my advanced age I figured I didn't want to start developing the skills needed for the double. (Not to mention old eyes.) That was MY decision. We're all different. I too feel your pain at having to decide on a new rifle. | |||
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Sid Thanks, that's a big complement! My romance with 500 Nitro is what brought me to the 500 MDM, and was my original goal to duplicate or exceed 500 N performance, which the 500 MDM did very easy. My love for a Winchester M70 demanded it be that platform only. As far as I know, it's the largest cartridge and caliber that will go on a Winchester M70--Easy without much issue. Just have to have one of the Win M70s done in the RUM to do it easy. Which I always keep some around, have 3 extra guns now. But the 500 MDM is not without it's own issues either, like most things. I am having such an issue with getting proper head stamped brass for the beast I really give up on it after a try from Quality and my recent try with Horneber, they just can't get it right. So if anyone ever has one done they need to engrave 375RUM/500MDM on the barrel, and that will put an end to any concerns over that. With 375 RUM brass, the the 500 MDM lives up to all expectations, and way the hell beyond. At first, 550 gr Lehighs at 2250 without issue. Then dropped the weight to 500 BBW#13s and they can go to 2600 fps and stay under 65000 PSI. Of course you don't need such, and I actually run slower at 2400 fps or so. I have some new 550 gr BBW#13s to try and see where they can go, for giggles, and I am waiting on my pressure trace gun to come back from Accurate Innovations with it's new bastogne stock to work with those, since it's hooked up with the gage already. The 500 MDM and the rest of the B&Ms solved all my Big Bore issues for life, I need nothing more or even have desires for anything more. Does it for me. Thanks again! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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No man, say it ain't so!!!!! Maybe you can just scratch Winchester on it somewhere? LOL M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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" ... all those rich folks eating in a fancy dining car, they're probably drinking coffee and smoking big cigars ..." The firepower of the 500MDM is about optimum for the 50 calibre. The 505Gibbs and 500Jeffrey have more capacity but it is rarely used by handloaders. The 500NE is also 'underloaded' relative to capacity and needs to stay underloaded to maintain its zeroes. Now the 500MDM is a pretty rifle in an Accurate Innovations stock. Even if one had money for a double, it would be a nice rifle to walkabout. There is a poor man's alternative. Get a Ruger Alaskan and build a 500AccRel. Similar capacity and power as the 500MDM but .510". So you've got three price levels to consider: 500AccRel, 500MDM, and 500NE. There is a 50 cal buffalo thumper for everyone's pocket or taste. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Guns and guitars.. Tons of either one out there, and only a few that speak to me. For myself, I,m usually a lot happier getting the one thats talking to me in the first place. I have very few needs, but a lot of wants, and guns for me are 99% for fun. A few years ago, got back into shooting after a long hiatus, picked up a practical little remington .22, a few revolvers, and a mannlicher 9.3x62 that I just had to have, and could not find ammo for in Alaska when I got it. which got me reloading out of sheer necessity, which has pretty much turned into knittin for rednecks,a little obsession all it,s own.. Anyhoo, ended up shootin that 9.3 a LOT more than the .22,the little remingtons long gone, there,s a little CZ mannlicher .22 next to the 9.3, think they,re both happier. I,ve got short list of guns that have continued to whisper in my ear over the last couple years, and because every good boy deserves a .416 Rigby,that,s one of em! Get the gun you want, you,re the guy thats gonna be shootin it.. | |||
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No flies on the .470NE. Most guys can shoot them easily. The 500NE is a serious step up in recoil. I've had great success in Africa with a Searcy .470NE and while I like more smack down power myself, I'd feel perfectly OK with a .470NE. I also totally agree with you on the range. Never shot anything with a double in Africa over 40 yrds myself and most a hell of a lot closer than that.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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416Tanzan makes a great point that I didn't even think about. Converting a Ruger Alaskan would be the most inexpensive way to get into a 50 class. It would be relatively easy to sell when you decided to go to a double or decide the cartridge class is too much recoil. While I have unfortunately never had the priveledge of owning a double rifle I can imagine it would be hard to sell if you decide it's not the caliber you wanted. There is no doubt a double can be a work of art that you would still be proud of 50 years from now. At the way gun prices have been going if you keep it at least 10 years I think it would be worth the original purchase price. One thing non gun owners will never understand is the value of what a nice rifle means to us. It may be an older rifle in not so great shape or an heirloom from our grandfather but the pleasure we get from some rifles you cannot put a price tag on. | |||
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A truer statement as has ever been. To the unwashed, a rifle is little more than a hammer, or screwdriver. To us, a treasure many times. I have one firearm from my grandfather, nothing special in the scheme of things, but it is priceless. Rifles I have used on great adventures, priceless. How can one put a price on things like that? Price on memories? No, I think those unwashed anti's can't understand much anything further than what they see on CNN. And they don't even get that! Rant over! Sorry! Speaking of .510. Jeffes 510AR is in my opinion the finest .510 of them all. I stole a couple of cases some time back, fantastic cartridge! If I were to ever do a .510 again, it would be a 500 AR, no doubt about it. Just wish I could stuff one in a Win M70 EASY--Yes it can probably be done, but not so easy, and I am demanding when it comes to feed, retain and function. And of course nothing but a Win M70 will do. But the cartridge is the best of the 510s in my opinion! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I settled on a 450 Dakota in a ZKK 602 action. I load it to 2300FPS with a 450-500 gr of any bullet I want and it is very comfortable shooting. It shoots everything to within 2" of the same point of impact at 50yds. It will do anything I want it to do but your milage may vary. Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing. | |||
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Damn you guys, I think I bit off more than I can chew with this question. I love the suggestions though and you've really got me thinking about what I need (or want that is). Sounds like there's a lot out there I haven't thought about. Take care, jfm | |||
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Flew back last year from Namibia, Frankfurt ,Dallas with a shore nuff elephant Ph. He carried a .458 WM and while he had killed a lot with it really didn't like the stopping power. His partner had a .500 Jeffery that awe struck elephants. He was going to try to find one while he was here. Got me turned on to them too. He said it was a real stopping rifle round. Shoot first. Never trust horses or women and very few mules. | |||
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High praise indeed.. thank you, sir. i do think it is nearly the prefect re-imagining of the 500 jeffery opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I think if you want a double, you should buy one. The question is which one and what caliber. Don't know where you live, but if you could shoot a 500 NE (best case would be of the make rifle you are thinking of), 3 or 4 times that would be a really good thing since it's a non-trivial purchase. You could compare the recoil to the 470 NE you've fired and then make the decision. I went with a 500 Jeffery vs a 458 Lott or 470 Capstick (I'm a bolt rifle kind of guy) due to a lot of advice here and elsewhere. I love the rifle and just love shooting it. Best of luck with your choice, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I would buy a double. They are fun to shoot and are just plain beautiful. Get the Kreigoff over the Merkel. I have had both, the Merkel kicks me more than the Kreigoff......Tom SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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How about having another Mod 70 rebarrelled to a larger caliber and set up the same as your 375H&H. Under stress everything will be the same, except for more punch at both ends. 458 Lott or 470 Capstick? | |||
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I agree with 86thecat. Under extreeme stress you rely on muscle memory. Having your new rifle be of the same make as your old rifle makes sence. The only thing I ask is that you read the Terminal Bullet Performance thread. Bullet performance is more important than caliber by far. Cheers, John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Pussies! Who th'F cares? AMF YOYO!!!! | |||
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If you want to stay with a bolt rifle, I would consider a 458 Lott and load 500 gr bullets to @2200fps. [If you found a good 458 Win Mag, I would not hesitate to use it.] If you want a double then a 450, to a 470 would be a great choice. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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