If someone asked which was the most powerful.....the 460 Wby or 505 Gibbs.

Obviously if your answer is based on factory ballistics (or claimed ballistics ) and kinetic energy then the 460 Wby is the winner.

Or would you take into consideration reloads for the 505 in which case with reasonable brass it will be way in front of the 460.

Which would you list as the most powerful from the 460 and 577 and both with factory claimed ballistics. If KE is the basis then the 460 wins.....or would you rate the 577 higher due to bigger diameter and much heavier bullet.

Lastly, if someone was to ask what is the most powerful sporting rifle would you include wildcats such as the 585 Nyati, 600 OK etc.

Mike

It depends on your definitions of commercial production and factory. The 585 Nyati/T-Rex has it all, including some serious recoil. IMHO the 505 handloaded is the winner for headstamped brass power in a controllable package.
I wonder if the 585's qualify as a factory load or boutique/designer rounds. Can you buy new rifles in either caliber today?

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS
550 Gibbs...got brass and dies...how 'bout the 375 Ruger, as of today?

Rich

I get get the question every now and then from a shooter who perhaps just has a 243. He will have often read about the 460 or 375 etc.

I usually say the 460 is the most powerful of readily available guns and ammo. If the shooter is into cars then I tell them that the guns have their version of hotted up cars etc.

It is also a bit hard to draw a line on wildcats abd factory. As we know technically, if the calibre is CIP or SAAMI it is not a wildcat. But for general use I would class factory whereby the rifle/calibre has a world wide distribusion system in place. That removes Dakota etc.

With the 505, I think that is a CZ US organised gunsmithing job as opposed to a CZ product. In other words, Winchester Australia import CZs but I don't think they could bring in CZs in 404, 450 Rigby or 505 because CZ does not produce them.

The other question that is difficult is the question of which calibre has the highest velocity. Do we work on muzzle velocity or the velocity for a given sectional density. If the latter then a 30/378 is probably the winner but not even close if muzzle velocity is the criteria and with factory loads.

Mike

Do we get a lollipop if we have the right answers?

quote:

Do we get a lollipop if we have the right answers?

Vapodog

You should stay out of the Political forum......it is having a negative impact on you.

As to lollipops............it sounds as if someone took your lollipop

Mike

/

well..
if you understand that "book" 460 weatherby is total all out max loading, and "factory" 505 gibbs is nothing of the sort, sure, a 460 weatherby, WITH PROPER BULLETS is a fine killing machine.

however, should one be a hand loader, and state say 50,000PSI as a max, the 505 loaded to that level makes the gibbs a pussy cat... or a 450 RIGBY, or, to be qaint, a 458 Lott.

but, then again, one would have to compare them on a level playing field... load the gibbs with .330 SD bullets, and run it at 50,000 PSI, the brass lasts for ever, pressure excursions mean nothing, and its in a CRF action.

in fact, paying $2k for a rifle GETS a gibbs... what's is 2K on a weatherby? a downpayment?

Then again, the 2k doesn't mean much, if one doesn't reload... that's LESS than 200 rounds of factory ammo, for either rifle, for factory ammo.


again, the weatherby is maxed out in "factory" trim, while the gibbs is at idle.

the gibbs can be had from CZ for 2k...

at 50kpi, the gibbs is 2400 FPS, with a 600gr bullet

or 2575 at 65,000 PSI

load a weatherby to the same, 600gr barnes bullet (not really a big game bullet)

50K 2200 FPS
65kpsi - 2302

so, someone might cry foul with the barnes, so how about a 550gr woodleigh
50kpsi 2325
65kpsi 2440

so, yeah, with "spec" loads, the weatherby has more pressure, power, and ME.. loaded to the same level, the gibbs far exceeds the 460

jeffe

Nelson Rockefeller once replied to the question "Was he a Billionaire?"....asked by Johnny Carson..... "Well Johnny, if you can count it, you're not a billionaire!"

Later Johnny asked Nelson how much the Island cost he owned in the Pacific...the reply:
"Well Johnny, if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it!"

My point:.....sometimes the answer to the question isn't at all relevant. Sometimes we just want to kick the tires!!!!!

Alf,

This is simply a case of what your answer would be.

Again, the shooter has a 243 and has asked the question.

I have been very critical of jeffeosso and by default Idaho Sharpshooter......but they seem to be the only people that can actually respond to my posting.

Alf, don't take yourself down to the level of Vapodog.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
If someone asked which was the most powerful.....the 460 Wby or 505 Gibbs.

Answer 1: 460 Wby, just read the Wby brochure and it says it right there.

Answer 2: 505 gibbs, just ask anyone who has hunted with one.

Answer 3: A dumbass with a .243 does not deserve an answer to that question.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
If someone asked which was the most powerful.....the 460 Wby or 505 Gibbs.

Answer 1: 460 Wby, just read the Wby brochure and it says it right there.

Answer 2: 505 gibbs, just ask anyone who has hunted with one.

Answer 3: A dumbass with a .243 does not deserve an answer to that question.

isn't that what I said....in a "round about way"?

vapodog,

You blokes win.

Mike

500 Grains,

OUCH!!! OUCH-OUCH-OUCH!!!!

Touche!

Easy,now, my almost-14 year old niece thinks her Ruger RSI 243 is a stone cold mule deer killing machine. One with one shot this past fall makes her the new resident expert of all things firearm-related at the JR High!

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS
Cape Buffalo hunter in-training.

quote:

Answer 1: 460 Wby, just read the Wby brochure and it says it right there.

Answer 2: 505 gibbs, just ask anyone who has hunted with one.

Answer 3: A dumbass with a .243 does not deserve an answer to that question.

Stupid answers when related to the posting that started the thread.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
If someone asked which was the most powerful.....the 460 Wby or 505 Gibbs.

Obviously if your answer is based on factory ballistics (or claimed ballistics ) and kinetic energy then the 460 Wby is the winner.

Or would you take into consideration reloads for the 505 in which case with reasonable brass it will be way in front of the 460.

Which would you list as the most powerful from the 460 and 577 and both with factory claimed ballistics. If KE is the basis then the 460 wins.....or would you rate the 577 higher due to bigger diameter and much heavier bullet.

Lastly, if someone was to ask what is the most powerful sporting rifle would you include wildcats such as the 585 Nyati, 600 OK etc.

Mike

quote:

Answer 1: 460 Wby, just read the Wby brochure and it says it right there.

Answer 2: 505 gibbs, just ask anyone who has hunted with one.

Answer 3: A dumbass with a .243 does not deserve an answer to that question.


Stupid answers when related to the posting that started the thread.

Mike

Dan is right! A dumbass with only a 243 DOES NOT DESERVE an answer! Why? They don't think outside the box. This isn't a knock on you and your friends. I've had smallbore loving friends ask me the same question. It won't matter what the answer is. They love shooting what they do and bigbore enthusiasts love THUMP! ( At both ends!) Don't get mad or try to add coherince to an on going question. It's just the way it is! Honestly, why drive a two stage Nitro kit on a TOTALLY done up 350 when a 4.3 will move the wheels. Because my buddy thinks it is FARGING fun! Never knock an answer when given, there may be an underlying truth!!
What Dan said was "Ask one who hunts with a 505" what it'll do.


PS don't sweat the small stuff!

And I thank God Australia gave the world Natalia Imbruglia.

Mr. McGuire,

Thank you for your posts here concerning the .375 Holland and Holland, excellent and valuable info.

I *speculate* that if shooting an impala the .460 is "more powerful".

If shooting an elephant the .505 is "more powerful".

But I've never shot either rifle.

If asked what is the most powerful sporting rifle I would say .50 BMG. If countered with "that's not a sporting cartridge" then I would suggest that neither is the 7x57 or .30-'06.

John in SC,

The term used was "is the most powerful sporting rifle".....not "cartridge"



Mike

Since factory claimed ballistics are only sometimes accurate ,, Reloads need to come into the answer... I suppose they don,t but then the answer would be incomplete...........Since the 577 T REX is a factory cartridge it is the winner as long as no one puts a 12ga FH next to it .............The 500 A-Square beats out the othere until the 505 is hand loaded up!!! or the 577 is put in some big strong singlle shot action.... Then,, what is the definition of power ?????? But I most definatly feel that ,unless the 6 mm shooter is an antagoniseing so and so ... People should attempt the best answer that they can ............Unless I,m mistaken everyone on AR was a kid once and probably asked a stupid question or 10 ........ I also agree that the 50 BMG is now as much a sporting round as the 06-223 is..... IN MY HUMBLE OPINION ,.,.,.,

gumboot458

If you were asked what the ballistics of the 505 Gibbs were, would you quote the "factory ballistics" or what it would do with reloads.

By the way, I don't regard the 50 BMG as a sporting round because it will not fit into a normal sporting rifle.

Mike

Mike,

If's are not interesting, what one have to consider is what goes over the counter.

.460 Weatherby is your answer - that is the only one loaded to that level, that can be called a standard cartridge. Same for rifles.

Customrifles and handloads are just not in the game.

Else, you would have to tell them about the 12GFH.

I know that the 505 Gibbs is one powerful round
from what I've read about it and with handloads it has more FPS then the WBY 460

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:


.460 Weatherby is your answer - that is the only one loaded to that level, that can be called a standard cartridge. Same for rifles.

If you believe the marketing hype about kinetic energy, then the 460 wby wins. However, those who have hunted large animals know that kinetic energy does not measure a cartridge's performance on the largest of game.

Also, the .505 is a "standard cartridge", having been standardized by CIP and having been offered by numerous known makers of fine rifles for 90 or so years. And it is currently available in off the shelf rifles as well, not just custom affairs.

So I think the .505 beats the .460.

But does it beat the .577? I have shot game with the .585 nyati, not the .577, and it is a bit difficult to extrapolate. However, I suspect that the .577 will win.

Relevancy of your answer to the question is in proportion to the sincerity of the asker. What’s more powerful 460 Vs 505? What is the definition of power? Hand loads versus factory loads? Custom rifles versus over the counter?

What is more powerful, hands down the 505. Due to its greater case capacity, when loaded to the same pressure with the same weight bullet it will trump the 460 in all parameters (KE, TKO, LB-F/S, etc.). Since the 505 exceeds the 460 in all categories, defining power is moot. If you can afford either rifle than you can afford to hand load and comparing only factory loads is out the window (you would be comparing apples to oranges anyway). The 505 is no longer a custom rifle only offering anymore, and for what a factory 460 costs you could build a custom rifle.

Sincerity of the asker of the question, this makes all the difference in whether or not your answer will be relevant. If your 243 shooter in sincere is his wonderings then anything within in the ball park of what I said above would be a “relatively†good answer IMHO. If the 243 shooter is insincere? Well let me give ya an example:

I went to the shooting range with my 416 Rigby one time. I was shooting off hand at 100 yards at paper plates. I would run full magazines from the standing position into the 6†plates with varying group sizes (all I cared about was hitting them every time). When from down at the other end of the range I noticed this chap shooting from the bench with a tricked out, heavy barrel, fiberglass stocked, Remington. He was checking out my “groups†through his 36X scope!

He approached me and asked if I was shooting different loads (noticing the inconsistency in my groups versus his). I said “Nope, just doing some off hand practice.†He said “What is that you’re shooting anyway?†“. 416 Rigby†I said. "What are ya going to shoot at with that?†He asked. “Hopefully buffalo†I said. He said “Hell I could kill a buffalo with my 270 right there. All I’d have to do is slip one in between his ribs and blow up his heart!â€

The fellow I meet at the range that day is my definition of a WAFO! WAFO you shoot them big guns when all ya need is a 270? WAFO are a** holes whom want to prove their point; they don’t deserve a relevant answer cause they already have one of their own! They are a** holes whom like to ask a question so they can argue (much like trolls).

I believe the above mentioned WAFO should get to go after buffalo or any other heavy dangerous beastie with his fly swatter of choice. He might get lucky. But, since they don’t need big bores and are illegally going to be using sub caliber rifles anyway then they shouldn’t get the use of a PH carrying a big bore to back them up!

Matt V…

I'm thinking we are all, roundabout making the same point...albeit using different ways to express it.

If we agree (that would be a first, but this might be the time) that reloaded for optimum DG work is the real world definition, and availability is the germane issue, then I think the 505 Gibbs reigns. I've posted here on my loading data from a friend's 505 Gibbs. I got a 650gr GC cast bullet up to 2278fps, and that load would shoot thru any game animal in the world, lengthways or break both shoulders and exit; with the possible exception of elephant from stem to stern. I defer to 500 grains on penetration opinion lengthways.

I will finally make it to Africa this summer to hunt Cape Buffalo. I'm taking my own wildcat, the 505 Gibbs necked up to .550" caliber. If I oculd not take it, the only other choice would be a 505 Gibbs.

Rich

quote:

However, those who have hunted large animals know that kinetic energy does not measure a cartridge's performance on the largest of game.

Dan,

Let's compare the 378 Wby and 458 Win. The 378 has about 20% more kinetic energy than the 458 and as such is has the capacity to do 20% more work.

However, the 378's bullet might expand too early and thus it does its work in the wrong part of the animal. Or perhaps due to its velocity the 378 bullet changes its direction in the animal and hence it again does its "work" in the wrong part of the animal.

But could some bullet type in the future change the above situation?

I think if someone asks the question as to which is the most powerful calibre then the answer has to be based on kinetic energy. While the bullets might not be currently available or barrels with the appropriate twist the facts are that a 378 has the ability to drive a 500 grain bullet faster than a 458 Win and it also has the ability to drive a 600 grain bullet as fast as the 458 Win will drive a 500 grain bullet.

If we accept that kinetic energy must be the measure then the other parameters are do we consider reloads and also how readily available (not just in America) the rifle and ammo is.

I think there are three candidates for the most powerful sporting type rifle and they are the 460 Wby, 600 OK and the 700 Nitro. However, if we factor in availability and affordability then the 600 OK and 700 Nitro drop off the list.

Mike

Definatly agree on the WAFO,s Way too many of them on the Alaska forum... The A-Square cartriges are available as factory ammo from midway and A-Square.......possibly other also.......But I agree with Idaho Sharpshooter The 505 is just bigger , and bigger means more hogs head of clobber... 20 yrs ago when I got my 500 A 2 I would go into a lengthy explanation of how the 500 A 2 was the most powerful factory round ,,,,But when people examind the brass they would grunt ,ah,,,, 460 whetherby....No I,de say that is just the brass they use.......Well isn,t that a wildcat then....Well they are coming out with correctly headstamped brass........UGH , still a wildcat ,460 is a factory round..then they would hand me the round and wander off.........Thats not the case anymore.......But the 505 is bigger..

Mike,

My comment assume use of non-deforming solid bullets.


I do not accept kinetic energy as a valid of killing power or stopping power for cape buffalo on up to elephant. There does seem to be a minimum velocity to achieve effective results, perhaps 1900 fps or so, but above that bullet diameter and bullet weight appear to be the controlling factors. I do not want to promote any mathematical formula for determining cartridge effectiveness, but the TKO values seem more valid than most other attempts to measure cartridge effectiveness.

RIP may argue, however, that the BS Index is a more accurate predictor.

Mike are you sure the 378 can move a 500 gr bullet faster than the 458 win.......A 458 win does push a 300 gr bullet to within 200 fps of the 378 due to its efficency and the 378,s over bore.............Has any one tried it??????? The original Barnes reloading manuel shows 2650 fps for the max vel.with the 350 gr bullet in the 378 ......Which is only 100 fps faster than the 458......These arn,t above SAAMI loads in the 458 either....I don,t mean to hijack the thread.......

gumboot458

A 378 will get to 3000 with 300 grainers and about 3150 with 270 grainers. In either case that is about 6000 foot pounds.

Thus assuming suitable powder availability and barrel twist then a 378 should drive a 500 rain bullet at about 2300 f/s and a 600 grain bullet at about 2100 f/s.......in either case they will be at about 6000 foot pounds.

If we go to the next step and assume that we cold buy 600 grain bullets in 375 and we also assume that these bullets will instantly expand to 45 calibre but no more, then the 378 will give a use a 45 calibre 600 grainer at 2100 as opposed to the 458's 500 grainer at 2100 f/s

The fact that such bullets are not currently available is in my opinion a separate issue.

I accept what 500 Grains is saying about KE not being valid for killing power etc on buffalo and elephant because he has been there and done it. However, I don't think that performance on elephant or buffalo is a measure of a calibres power.

Mike

Mike,

If misery experienced at the shooting range is an indicator of power, then you are probably right that the 460 Wby in a Mark V is more powerful than a .505 Gibbs on a GMA action with traditional stock!

I don’t believe that KE is the end all deciding factor in killing power either, especially for large heavy game. There are other factors. For example; Frontal area has to count for something. A solid bullet fired from either (378 or 458) will pass clean through the shoulders of most heavy animals. The 458 is going to leave a bigger hole!

I believe cartridges that generate high KE (based on velocity alone with relatively light bullets) are best suited to thin skinned game that are highly susceptible to shock. When you have to measure penetration in feet or yards cartridges that yield high LB-F/S of momentum coupled with high sectional density & heavily constructed bullets are where it’s at.

The WAFO in my above post went on to tell me a story (in an attempt to prove his point) in which two of his buddies were moose hunting. Buddy number 1 shot the moose 4 times with his 300 H&H and the moose stood their with no reaction at all. Buddy number 2 pulled up his trusty 270 and dropped the critter with one shot!

I did not even ask about shot placement, bullet construction, etc, it would have been a waste of time (every time I go to the range I run into guys like this). If given the choice I’d take a 300 H&H with 200 gr controlled expansion bullets every time over a 270. But I wasn’t going to tell him that.

There are a million ways to quantify “killing powerâ€, and every one has their pet theory (some are sound some are not). Mike check out Kevin Robertson’s book “The Perfect Shot.†He has a section in which he discusses the ballistics of most cartridges used in Africa. I believe Mr. Robertson sums it up pretty well when making cartridge comparisons.

Anyway,

Is the question what is the most powerful cartridge? Or is it what’s the most powerful cartridge that is readily available? If it’s the latter question, than your answer is not the 460, 505, 600ok, nor 700 Nitro. It’s the 458 Lott; it is more available and affordable than any other cartridge we’ve discussed so far.

But, if the question is what’s the most powerful cartridge? Than all other parameters are out the window. You have to compare hand loads when making comparisons of cartridges this large (otherwise you won’t be making comparisons on level playing fields). I’ll bet that 95% of guys that shoot big bores are hand loaders. Cost of the rifle is a non issue, all of them are expensive.

Matt V.

Matt

In Australia a 460 Wby would be more readily available than a 458 Lott. In other words if we both walk into a gunshop it is very unlikely that the shop will have either in stock. It is also unlikely that distributors for Wby, Ruger or CZ will have the 460 or 458 Lott in stock.

However, the Wby distributor is a much slicker operation and provided the 460 is a standard Mark V, no custom shop stuff, then you will have the 460, brass and ammo before the 458 Lott.

Getting a 505 Gibbs would be a long journey The importers of CZs to Australia is Winchester Australia and they import from CZ and as far as I am aware the CZ in 505 is a CZ USA gunsmithed job. It would be easier to have the gun made up out here than trying to bring one in yourself from the US.

The average non shooter in Australia who has a little bit to do with guns thinks the 303 is just about the end of the road for power . However, many of them will be aware of "elephant guns". In fact if they see any thing bigger such as a 338 Win they will ask....is that for an elephant gun

I have read Kevin Robertson’s book but I still don't think killing power is a measure of a calibres power and for two reasons. Firstly, the killing power will vary with different animals. Secondly, things will undoubtedly change in the future as different bullets become available.

I think in some ways it is like comparing the HP of different engines. Currently a Formula 1 engine is about 750 HP at about 17,000 rpm. The diesel in the big truck might be 375 HP at 1700 rpm. Now if we drop the Formula 1 engine into the truck we are not going to go real well. BUT, if we gear the Formula 1 engine down 10 times to 1700 rpm and put that in the truck then things will be real different.

Having said of all that, I think if you set the parameters along these lines:

1) Reasonable availability

2) A repeating rifle, which of course includes a double rifle

3) Reasonably affordable

4) Wildcats allowed and calibres like 505 Gibbs ballistics based on top loads

then I think the 600 OK probably takes the prize.

Mike

Dan,

I think the stock design is a personal issue. I prefer the Wby style stock for big kickers. We have a fibreglass stock maker in Australia and makes them in two styles, tradional and similar to Wby. For big bangers he recommeds his Wby style stock. In fact PC has one on his 585 Nyati.

As a side note, what would be the difference between the centre of the butt and the axis of the bore for a Wby and a double rifle or an old English big bore bolt gun.

Mike

Here is the answer, from the Wby website

460 Weatherby Magnum

Introduced in 1958. Considered to be the world’s largest, most powerful shoulder-fired cartridge, the .460 shoots a 500 grain bullet at 2,600 fps, delivering an incredible 7,507 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That’s 50 percent more energy than the .458 Winchester. Heavy recoil to be sure, but few hunters who need to stop a charging Rhino or Cape Buffalo complain. Nearly four tons of smashing power make the .460 the only choice for Africa’s most dangerous game



Hard to believe that the 378 and 460 are about 50 years old.

The 12GaFH is undoubtably the most powerfull shoulder fired cartridge weapon developed for SPORTING PURPOSES in existance. I'm sure ED Hubel agrees on that one! It will best a 2 or 4 bore AFAIK. Shooting a full tilt .460WBY compares favorably to a .22LR in comparison! If you don't believe me, I'll let you shoot it! You will believe!-Rob

Mike,

I didn’t even look at your location and see that you are posting from Australia (Sorry)! Prices and availability are different everywhere (different strokes for different folks). You can’t swing a dead cat over here with out hitting someone who has a 458 Lott ! If a 460 is what ya can get then it’s what ya got.

Take it easy….

Matt V.

Matt,

If you went to one of our ranges in Sydney the calibres you would most likely see that are more powerful than the 375 H&H would be the 458 Win, 378 and 460. The 416 Wby is deader than dead.

The other difference you see out here is the average shooter's perception of quality, which tends be guided, rightly or wrongly, by price.

Because we pay taxes and other import costs on all rifle brands the percentage differences between the brands is not the same as the US of A. For example, a Wby Accumark is quite a lot dearer than a Sako stainless. The Sako is much closer in price to the M70 and Rem 700 than is the case in the US. The CZs are very low in price compared to M70 and Rem 700.

Rugers have always been much cheaper out here than M70 or Rem 700....whether we get a special export model I don't know. At different times Ruger has made runs of their rifle in 222 for the Australian market.

The biggest selling rifle in Australia is the Wby Vanguard. In the past it has swapped around between Ruger and the Howa rifle.

With big bore bullets such as 375 and 45 we pay much the same for Hornady as we do Woodleighs.

Apart from Woodleigh bullets the other thing that is cheaper, much cheaper, in Australia is the top end custom gun on the Mauser or M70. I don't know how they would compare in quality to the top American custom guns......but given your best gunsmiths are extracted from a population of 300 million and ours for 20 million then one would think your top gunsmiths would be than ours.

Where some of ours might be in front would be 404 J and 500 J on Mausers.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
RIP may argue, however, that the BS Index is a more accurate predictor.

The BS index is merely the Taylor KO value weighted by sectional density of subject bullet, with unit correction factor (divide by 12) applied to convert inches (caliber) to feet so as to be consistent in the units. Taylor did bother to convert grains to pounds, by dividing by 7000, but he didn't bother with the inches to feet. The BS Index took care of that.

TKO = (Caliber x Weight x Velocity)/7000

BS = (Caliber x Weight x Velocity x SD)/(12 x 7000)

TKO units = Taylor Knock-Out Value
BS units = Big Stick Value = saeeds

BS Index = BS x 100 = centisaeeds

460 Wby realistic load = .458/500gr@2600fps
TKO = 86.7
BSI = 246
BS = 2.46

.505 Gibbs realistic load = .505/600gr@2325fps
TKO = 100
BSI = 282
BS = 2.82

And so on ...

For those who wish to generate tables of BS Index, the shorthand formula is:

BSI = CxWxVxSD/840

The TKO would favor a Frisbee or hockey puck as most effective bullet shape.

The BSI would favor a needle as most effective
bullet shape.

Pick your poison. In this case they both favor the .505 Gibbs.

www.accuratereloading.com/bsivalue.html
There are a few minor typos in that table, but it is pretty close.

Ron,

The 2600 load for the 460 is real top end stuff. Just short of ejector marks appearing on the case = 7500 foot pounds

The 505 load of 600 grains at 2325 = 7200 foot pounds. With a much bigger case capacity and bigger bore that should be well under the 505's potential, assuming good brass. Are you using a lower load for the 505 because of increased thrust on the bolt with the bigger diameter case.

Mike

Yes, Mike, you got it. We are talking practical, what?

If Robgunbuilder can supply a "practical" load for the 12GFH (caliber, weight, velocity), we can see by how much it dwarfs the others in TKO and BS.

Ah well, for me practical ends with 500A2 or 500 Mbogo:
.510/600gr@2470fps
TKO = 108
BSI = 297
BS = 2.97