I was wondering how many of you have taken a gun over 50 cal on a hunt and what problems you encountered doing so? Customs in Sacramento started foaming at the mouth when I mentioned a 577.

I have taken a 577 out of the country 4-5 times. Also a 10 Bore and an 8 bore. I took a 585 Nyati down to Customs two weeks ago to register it. Aside from some envious looks by 3 Agents who had to come out to the truck to see it everything was fine.

Is there supposed to be a problem?

quote:

Is there supposed to be a problem?

The AECA and the regulations promulugated thereunder (ITAR) says you can only temporarily export (without a license) firearms of .50 caliber or less.

Regards,

Terry

There is no sporting arms exemption. Shotguns (except for combat-style shotguns) and black powder firerarms (including those in excess of .50 caliber) are permitted.

Regards,

Terry

That's interesting.

Could make getting ATF approval for a cartridge difficult, if your justification for its "sporting purpose" includes temporarilly exporting it to Africa to hunt dangerous game and that activity is precluded by other legislation!

Civil penalty: a fine of up to $500,000.
Criminal (willful) penalty: a fine of up to a $1,000,000 or ten years in prison, or both.

Regards,

Terry

Time to change the damn law then. IE.."WE"
on here need to contact the congress critters
and just have a law that says any over 50 cal
gun and cartridge used for sporting use, is automatically legal for use here and abroad, by our citizens.And not to be under class 3 and
destructive device rules and taxes.
Use means- developing, reloading, hunting, target shooting, building you own gun,
making your bullets and brass,etc.Make a list of action styles that are sporting, without being under class three, bolt, break, and falling block actions...Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
BATF does not care if you take it out of the country because export is hanled by a different department within the government.

It was just an observation. If the ATF got on to the overlapping legislation, I assume they could potentially use it to deny an application for exemption from designation as a "Destructive Device". Unless you can make a good case for domestic sporting purposes for that cartridge, of course!

quote:

Also, as a Canadian it should not be that big a deal to bring rifles to the USA for a trip to Africa. 700nitro did it with his 700 Nitro Express and ammo! He lives in Canada, so he had to bring the rifle and ammo to the U.S., via air I believe, and then fly to Africa, then return with rifle and leftover ammo. How many regs were broken with that trip?

700Nitro could certainly be considered lucky. I was informed that there still is not a legal way to transport a firearm through the US. In other words, there is still no mechanism (eg. permit) that a non-resident alien (eg. Canadian) can obtain in order to allow the temporary import of a firearm into the US and subsequent export of same to a country other than that of origin.

I was also advised that whether or not your firearm would be seized in this situation would depend entirely on which custom agents you encountered on your arrival and/or departure from the US. Apparently many of them do not know the law on this and can still be pacified by a good story and some irrelevant paperwork. So it comes down to your personal tolerance for risk.

Cheers,
Canuck

I, and some of my clients have taken the 505 Gibbs to Africa, and someone does every year..It is 50 cal. and no problems have cropped up..?????????? A number of 500 Jefferys, and 500 N.E. and ocassionally a 577 will show up in camp...

500grains,

BATF regs and "destructive device" are not relevant to this issue.

The issue is the export of the rifles which is governed by the Arms Export Control Act and administered by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls - US State Department. ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) states that (without a license) you can only temporarily export .50 caliber or smaller.

I know that people do this all the time (take greater than .50 caliber rifles on overseas hunting trips), but technically it is illegal.

Obviously Customs in Sacramento is knowledgeable about the law or BiggestGun wouldn't have had any problem.

Whether every Customs official in every office is aware of the .50 caliber limit, I don't know. Maybe there is a Customs policy that allows the temporary export of sporting arms over .50 caliber, but ITAR clearly states that it is illegal.

Call your local Customs office and ask them about it. I would be more than happy if I was wrong.

Regards,

Terry

P.S.

The following are also export restricted by ITAR.

"Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-counterinsurgency, close assault weapons systems) having a special military application regardless of caliber."

P.S.S.
I saw this on 60 Minutes awhile back.
60 Minutes .50 Caliber

As an ex US Customs Special Agent, if they issue you a form 4457 they know at that time you intend to take that rifle out of the country and they are duty bound to seize it if they believe its illegal...

It would make a great court case, and set some precidence, and might get you a damn good settlement out of court...Maybe!

If you read chapter 123 for licences it applies to DEFENCE Articles http://fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/

This sounds like it is designed to control the flow of military hardware not sporting firearms

RNS

RNS,

See Section 121.1 of the US Munitions List. It applies to any firearms.

Regards,

Terry

I suppose, as Terry says, it depends. Last trip I took out of the country, all the Customs guys did was check to see that the serial number on the rifle matched the 4457 and waved me through. Admittedly, I was carrying a 'mere' .404 but they seemed much more concerned with my boots that needed to be sterilized than they were with the guns.

§ 121.1 -- General. The United States munitions list.
(a) The following articles, services and related technical data are designated as defense articles and defense services pursuant to sections 38 and 47(7) of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778 and 2794(7)).

Like I said the way I read it is for defense articles

When I get back to work I will go up stairs and talk to some of the customs agent supervisors and try to get a copy of the regs they know I'm a big bire shooter

RNS

§ 123.5 -- Temporary export licenses.
(a) The Office of Defense Trade Controls may issue a license for the temporary export of unclassified defense articles (DSP-73).


Sporting firearms are classified as sporting firearms so therefore they are classified and they are not defence articles.

But it would be a good idea to simply request a sporting classification for any sporting firearm over 50 cal. I have the paperwork from the ATF for my 550 Magnum so there is no way a customs agent could get my sporting firearm confussed with a defense article. This advise was given to me by the director of the firearms technologhy branch and that is why I have the letter.

Directions to get a letter will shortly be at www.custombrassandbullets.com on the ATF page

RNS

RNS,

You need to read the rest of the Regs, see below.

§ 121.1 General. The United States Munitions List.

(a) The following articles, services and related technical data are designated
as defense articles and defense services pursuant to sections 38 and
47(7) of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778 and 2794(7)).

.............

CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS

*(a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(b) Fully automatic firearms to .50 caliber inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(c) Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-counterinsurgency, close assault weapons systems) having a special military application regardless of caliber.
*(d) Combat shotguns. This includes any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18
inches.

.........................

CATEGORY II—GUNS AND ARMAMENT
*(a) Guns over caliber .50 (12.7mm) caliber.

Read the above, there is no designation for a sporting firearm in the Regs. There is no exemption for a "sporting firearm".

You can not, without a license, export any firearms from the US. (See limited exception below).

You can, pursuant to the provisions of Section 123.17(c) of ITAR, temporarily export not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of § 121.1 (US Munitions List). {In other words, you can temporarily export up to 3 nonautomatic firearms of up to .50 caliber}.

As I read it, anyone wanting to temporarily export a firearm larger than .50 caliber will require the issuance of an export license.

The ATF has no jurisdiction over this law. So it doesn't matter how the ATF classifies it. Any firearm is a "defense article" as is clearly stated in the US Munitions List.

Regards,

Terry

Here it is simply.

You can not export any firearms from the US without a license.

EXCEPT, you can take up to 3 firearms out of the US for hunting trips, BUT these firearms can not be bigger than .50 caliber.

That's it in nutshell.

Regards,

Terry

BiggestGun:

A friend of mine took a .500 Jefferies to Tanzania last year, and other than wanting to fondle it some, the customs guys in Sacramento were fine. He just called ahead and said he was bringing in a rifle for issuance of a form 4457.

I have flown in to New York/JFK and in to Atlanta from Johannesburg with my rifles. Both times, I presented US Customs with my 4457 Forms and they waived me right through without even opening my gun case.

Tim

I appreciate all the feedback. It seems nobody really knows. Customs in Sacramento said they can’t issue a permit for any gun over 50 caliber. The senior guy in Sacramento is a real “boy scout†and may be right or not. Just for fun I called some other entrance ports and none of the people I talked to know anything about this. I just received an email back from the State Dept about this matter and they suggested contacting the Tanzania Embassy. I doubt Tanzania cares how big my gun is and I was only concerned about my reentry to the US anyways.
I’m sure some of you use the big rifles and I just wondered if the size attracted any attention when you got back to the states. In my four trips to Africa they only looked at the guns once and then they didn’t even look at the caliber. Just matching the serial numbers to the 4457’s. I applied to ATF for “sporting classification†on my new 606 rifle a couple months ago and hope to have that before I leave in Oct.
I’m sure I can get my 4457 signed somewhere then I’ll just take it on my hunt and see what happens when I get back.
Happy hunting- Marshall Jones

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Carr [mailto:bunduki@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 11:13 PM
To: DDTCResponseTeam@state.gov
Subject: Temporary Export of Sporting Firearm in Excess of .50 Caliber


Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am aware of the provisions of Section 123.17(c) of ITAR which allows the temporary export of firearms.

My question concerns the .50 caliber limitation. Am I permitted to temporarily export, without a license, a firearm in excess of .50 caliber for sport hunting purposes? There are several well recognized sport hunting calibers that exceed the .50 caliber limit, such as the .505 Gibbs and the .577 Nitro Express that are chambered in sport hunting rifles.

Regards,

Terry Carr
Missouri, USA



The 123.17(c) exemption is limited to firearms in Category I, which covers those up to .50 caliber. Therefore, the exemption cannot be used for rifles in calibers .505 Gibbs or .577 Nitro Express. The temporary export would require a DSP-73 license.

Steve Geis
DDTC Response Team

Would SCI, especially their office in Washington, D.C., be of any assistance in getting a detailed explanation of the pitfalls?

George

This is very interesting, especially as I am unaware of any sporting rifle, or even any military weapon, of precisely .50 caliber or 12.7mm.

It seems to me that these regs were most probably aimed at prohibiting export of rifles and heavy machine guns chambering the .50 Browning Machine Gun round (which uses bullets of .510" diameter).

Not just the .505 Gibbs, with its .505" bullet, but also the .500 Jeffery and the .500 Nitro Express, as well as the .500 A-Square, the .510 Wells and other, similar rounds, would all fall afoul of this regulation, since they all use .510" diameter bullets.

Rather than write the regs correctly, that is, in a way that makes sense and is narrowly drawn so as to avoid unintended or untoward consequences for sportsmen, the drafters were over-inclusive and, in a word, careless.

And I mean "careless" in the sense of "sloppy" and not caring one way or the other about it. The only saving grace is that no one, or hardly anyone, seems to care about or enforce this law as far as hunters are concerned. In fact, I would bet that any sportsman who applied for a permit to export his .500 A-Square for an African safari would face bureaucratic indifference and an eternal wait in order to get it, if it were ever issued at all. I wonder if any sportsman has ever obtained one of these permits?

This whole issue once again proves that America is a nation of laws--and that many of them are poorly written and randomly enforced.

Terry, thanks for the research. I will request the permit and report back to the forum on the results. Marshall Jones

Yep, most of the "50 caliber" rifles are .50 caliber in the bore (land diameter) and .510 caliber in the groove/bullet diameter.

Steve Geis doesn't know what he is talking about, and needs to get himself sorted out..

The .505 Gibbs is smaller than .50 bore.

The regulation applies to the rifle barrel's bore diameter.

A .505 Gibbs is something like .495 bore.

.500 A2, .500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs are all .50 bore or less.

Idiocy from the bureaucrats.

gentlemen,
you are severly missing the mark, and neal is correct... in fact, with a sporting rifle/ammo classification, this entire act has no bearing on sporting ammo.

it is written in regards to military -read destructive device if over .50 in the atf's eyes - hardware not civilian use, which is specifically excluded from this regulation

as one can clearly see, any bigbore the atf has classified as sporting CAN NOT be classified as defense articles.

see below


§ 120.2 -- Designation of defense articles and defense services.
The Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778(a) and 2794(7)) .... The items so designated constitute the United States Munitions List and are specified in part 121 of this subchapter. Such designations are made by the Department of State with the concurrence of the Department of Defense.
...

§ 120.3 -- Policy on designating and determining defense articles and services.
An article or service may be designated or determined in the future to be a defense article (see § 120.6) or defense service (see § 120.9) if it:

(a) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and

(i) Does not have predominant civil applications, and

(ii) Does not have performance equivalent (defined by form, fit and function) to those of an article or service used for civil applications; or

(b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary.

typical... the reg says you don't have to have the form you have to have to take a gun out on a safari

§ 120.17 -- Export.
Export means:
;o]hQ
(1) Sending or taking a defense article out of the United States in any manner, except by mere travel outside of the United States by a person whose personal knowledge includes technical data; or



jeffe

jeffe,

The AECA does cover any firearm (not just military-type firearms).

You can not export any firearm listed in the US Munitions List unless you have a license or an exemption (such as Section 123.17(c)).

Read the definition again:

§ 121.1 General. The United States Munitions List.

(a) The following articles, services and related technical data are designated
as defense articles and defense services pursuant to sections 38 and
47(7) of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778 and 2794(7)).

.............

CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS

*(a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(b) Fully automatic firearms to .50 caliber inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(c) Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-counterinsurgency, close assault weapons systems) having a special military application regardless of caliber.
*(d) Combat shotguns. This includes any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18
inches.


It does not matter how the BATF classifies a weapon. The BATF does not have any jurisdiction over the export of firearms. I talked to a the BATF agent in charge of the Dallas office when this issue came up several years ago.

So according to what you are saying, I can go into the export business and ship "civilian" firearms overseas without a license? I don't think so.

I will repeat myself one more time (as this is the last post I will make on this subject):

"Here it is simply.

You can not export any firearms from the US without a license.

EXCEPT, you can take up to 3 firearms out of the US for hunting trips, BUT these firearms can not be bigger than .50 caliber.

That's it in nutshell."

Regards,

Terry

Sorry, guys. I know we all wish it weren't so, but Terry's absolutely right.

As an aside, it is unclear what definition of "caliber" is being used in the regs. Standard definitions refer either to bore diameter (i.e., across the lands) or bullet diameter. As we all know, those are always inconsistent.

It seems to me, though, that if you're using a rifle with a bore diameter of .500" or less--such as the .505 Gibbs, the .500 NE, the .500 Jeffery, the .500 A2, etc.--you may be all right--or at least you'll have a good argument if and when push comes to shove. A .577 NE on the other hand is way over the line.

Still, assuming that you are able to get a Form 4457 from Customs, it is hard to imagine how, in the normal course, this issue would ever come up.

Terry,

Note that Category I deals with "firearms" and Category II deals with "guns". If the State Dept mean for the 2 terms to have the same meaning, they would have used the same term. So that means that "firearms" and "guns" have a different meaning from each other. If a gun is not a firearm, then what it is it? Probably a generic word for an artillery piece, as distinguished from a shoulder fired rifle.

Terry,
et al..

my first post on the subject clearly illustrates a basic flaw in our understanding of this reg... the reg deals with MILITARY equipment and SPECIFICALLY excludes civil applications... combine that with the atf ---now PART of the same organization as customs -- ruling on certain calibers are clearly sporting use, then there is the irrefutable conclusion that some rounds are clearly meant for sporting use, and have been designed and used for that for over 100 years.

i have not heard of anyone wanting to take a rifle from the us out that was refused on account of caliber BY THE US...


to add another wrinkle
1: a 577 nitro is a sporting firearm
2: an m-16 is a rifle or a weapon
3: a m209 is a gun...

this is why you explain you have a sporting arm, NOT a weapon, as they are defined as different things... one is civ and one is mil

jeffe

Well I hate to get into this but what it looks like to me is that only firearms listed on the US Munitions List require a licence to export.

quote:

jeffe,

The AECA does cover any firearm (not just military-type firearms).

You can not export any firearm listed in the US Munitions List unless you have a license or an exemption (such as Section 123.17(c)).

So agaim the firearm has to be on the US Munitions List to require a licence.
[B]
The US Munitions List


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The US Munitions List is the part of the secondary regulations (the International Traffic in Arms Regulations or ITAR) that defines which defence articles and services are subject to licensing.[/B}

The US Munitions List


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The US Munitions List is the part of the secondary regulations (the International Traffic in Arms Regulations or ITAR) that defines which defence articles and services are subject to licensing.

The list is contained in part 121 of ITAR and is divided into 16 sections.

These sections are:

1. General introduction
2. Interpretations of the US Munitions List and the Missile Technology Control Regime Annex
3. Aircraft and related articles
4. Amphibious and related articles
5. Apparatus and devices under category 4(c)
6 Cartridge and shell casings
7. Chemical agents
8. End-items, components, accessories, attachments, parts, firmware, software and systems
9. Firearms
10. Forgings, castings and machined bodies
11. Military demolition blocks and blasting caps
12. Military explosives and propellants
13. Military fuel thickeners
14. [Reserved]
15. Vessels of war and special naval equipment
16. Missile Technology Control Regime Annex

What we should do is email them and ask them to provide us with a full copy of the list with sporting firearms listed as Defense articles.

RNS

Yes, a quagmire, an ignorance crater amongst BATFE agents.

Many shotguns and sporting firearms are over 50 bore and have been routinely used in Africa by US citizens forever. Thanks for any word in straightening this confusion out.

There should be no hit or miss enforcement of misinterpreted regulations. This should be black and white, plain as mud.

jeffe and RNS,

What you are describing is the way it is supposed to work. Only military-type weapons, etc. are supposed to be subject to these regs.

But that is not the way the regs work, as drafted. The problem is that the regs themselves define any rifle over .50 caliber as a defense item that is subject to export licensing.

It is obvious to us, as big bore rifle owners and shooters, that the drafters took a sloppy, broad brush approach that includes way too much, including many sporting rifles.

But the definition is unfortunately as plain as day and brooks no doubt or disagreement.

It is a blind blanket coverage. Here is some means to have it corrected

§120.3 Policy on designating and determining defense articles and services.
An article or service may be designated or determined in the future to be a defense article (see §120.6) or defense service (see §120.9) if it:

(a) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and

(i) Does not have predominant civil applications, and

(ii) Does not have performance equivalent (defined by form, fit and function) to those of an article or service used for civil applications; or

(b) Is specifically designed, developed, configured, adapted, or modified for a military application, and has significant military or intelligence applicability such that control under this subchapter is necessary.

The intended use of the article or service after its export (i.e., for a military or civilian purpose) is not relevant in determining whether the article or service is subject to the controls of this subchapter. Any item covered by the U.S. Munitions List must be within the categories of the U.S. Munitions List. The scope of the U.S. Munitions List shall be changed only by amendments made pursuant to section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2778).

§120.4 Commodity jurisdiction.
(a) The commodity jurisdiction procedure is used with the U.S. Government if doubt exists as to whether an article or service is covered by the U.S. Munitions List. It may also be used for consideration of a redesignation of an article or service currently covered by the U.S. Munitions List. The Department must submit a report to Congress at least 30 days before any item is removed from the U.S. Munitions List. Upon written request, the Office of Defense Trade Controls shall provide a determination of whether a particular article or service is covered by the U.S. Munitions List. The determination, consistent with §§120.2, 120.3, and 120.4, entails consultation among the Departments of State, Defense, Commerce and other U.S. Government agencies and industry in appropriate cases.

(b) Registration with the Office of Defense Trade Controls as defined in part 122 of this subchapter is not required prior to submission of a commodity jurisdiction request. If it is determined that the commodity is a defense article or service covered by the U.S. Munitions List, registration is required for exporters, manufacturers, and furnishers of defense articles and defense services (see part 122 of this subchapter).

(c) Requests shall identify the article or service, and include a history of the product's design, development and use. Brochures, specifications and any other documentation related to the article or service shall be submitted in seven collated sets.

(d)(1) A determination that an article or service does not have predominant civil applications shall be made by the Department of State, in accordance with this subchapter, on a case-by-case basis, taking into account:

(i) The number, variety and predominance of civil applications;

(ii) The nature, function and capability of the civil applications; and

(iii) The nature, function and capability of the military applications.

(2) A determination that an article does not have the performance equivalent, defined by form, fit and function, to those used for civil applications shall be made by the Department of State, in accordance with this subchapter, on a case-by-case basis, taking into account:

(i) The nature, function, and capability of the article;

(ii) Whether the components used in the defense article are identical to those components originally developed for civil use.

Note:

The form of the item is its defined configuration, including the geometrically measured configuration, density, and weight or other visual parameters which uniquely characterize the item, component or assembly. For software, form denotes language, language level and media. The fit of the item is its ability to physically interface or interconnect with or become an integral part of another item. The function of the item is the action or actions it is designed to perform.

(3) A determination that an article has significant military or intelligence applications such that it is necessary to control its export as a defense article shall be made, in accordance with this subchapter, on a case-by-case basis, taking into account:

(i) The nature, function, and capability of the article;

(ii) The nature of controls imposed by other nations on such items (including COCOM and other multilateral controls), and

(iii) That items described on the COCOM Industrial List shall not be designated defense articles or defense services unless the failure to control such items on the U.S. Munitions List would jeopardize significant national security or foreign policy interests.

(e) The Office of Defense Trade Controls will provide a preliminary response within 10 working days of receipt of a complete request for commodity jurisdiction. If after 45 days the Office of Defense Trade Controls has not provided a final commodity jurisdiction determination, the applicant may request in writing to the Director, Center for Defense Trade that this determination be given expedited processing.

(f) State, Defense and Commerce will resolve commodity jurisdiction disputes in accordance with established procedures. State shall notify Defense and Commerce of the initiation and conclusion of each case.

(g) A person may appeal a commodity jurisdiction determination by submitting a written request for reconsideration to the Director of the Center for Defense Trade. The Center for Defense Trade will provide a written response of the Director's determination within 30 days of receipt of the appeal. If desired, an appeal of the Director's decision can then be made directly to the Assistant Secretary for Politico-Military Affairs.

The more I have thought about this, the more I have tended to agree with George that SCI, or perhaps even the NRA, would be best suited to help straighten this out--better at it anyway than just one man trying to take on and move these bureaucracies.

The trouble is, big bore shooters are a tiny minority, and not much of a constituency. And these organizations have limited budgets and must set priorities accordingly. Still, it might be worth a shot (pun intended). I will think about it and may contact them. Any ideas about process would be appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
500grains,

BATF regs and "destructive device" are not relevant to this issue.

The issue is the export of the rifles which is governed by the Arms Export Control Act and administered by the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls - US State Department. ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) states that (without a license) you can only temporarily export .50 caliber or smaller.

I know that people do this all the time (take greater than .50 caliber rifles on overseas hunting trips), but technically it is illegal.

Obviously Customs in Sacramento is knowledgeable about the law or BiggestGun wouldn't have had any problem.

Whether every Customs official in every office is aware of the .50 caliber limit, I don't know. Maybe there is a Customs policy that allows the temporary export of sporting arms over .50 caliber, but ITAR clearly states that it is illegal.

Call your local Customs office and ask them about it. I would be more than happy if I was wrong.

Regards,

Terry

P.S.

The following are also export restricted by ITAR.

"Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-counterinsurgency, close assault weapons systems) having a special military application regardless of caliber."

P.S.S.
I saw this on 60 Minutes awhile back.
60 Minutes .50 Caliber

And, if I recall correctly, it is the left-wing, communistic politicians in CA who are at this very moment, trying to outlaw .50 caliber rifles..... along with everything else they have banned in the past few years!!

I see the internet lawyers are out in force on this one.

If I want to take a 577 or a 600 to Africa I will do so, and I will have no problems, I can get a 4457 on either one of them from my local Customs guy..He says that law is strictly for purposes of weapons of war, and not applicable to any Sporting firearm...Must be so because people bring all the big bores to our camp every year without problems...

I am sure you can create a problem is you wish.

Ray,

Unfortunately, this is a problem already for BiggestGun. Bad luck for him that he visited a Customs office, or maybe just saw a particular officer, who focused on this issue.

I do hear you, though, and don't necessarily disagree that this sleeping dog might be best left alone.

If I were in BiggestGun's shoes--and this is not legal or any other kind of advice, it's just me talking--before I went through all the red tape, I'd either try my luck at the same office with a different Customs officer on a different day, or just try another Customs office.