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Originally posted by MacD37:
There are very few NE cases that a proper load of IMR/H 4831 comes anywhere near filling the case. his loads.[/QB]

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Originally posted by mickey:
[Mac
I don't want to disagree too strongly but other than the #2's all of the cartridges I have loaded for do fill the cases. The .577 and .600 both come within 1/16" of the bullet with the loads mentioned.

I know Graeme plays with fillers but if you ask him he will tell you that they are not needed when the proper powder is used.

I agree on Ross Seyfried making assupmptions without offering proof of the valitidy of the statements.

Graeme has not pressure tested all of his loads, only what he had when he was in England to get a basic overall view of the situation.

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Micky, you are most likely right on all counts, as I too, have loaded some cartridges with slow powders without fillers, and got by with it without misshap! That fact doesn't mean, however the potentual was not there for a flash over causeing a catastrophic pressure peak in the chamber, in some cartridges!

Graeme's pressure testing of loads, though not all,as you state, are many more than Ross has pressure tested, unless he simply has not revealed that fact!

The key to YOUR loading is, as you say, useing the PROPER POWDER/cartridge combination. I just sold a 577NE 3" double rifle, and I did not use filler in it either, and I used IMR 4831 as well. But in many of my rifles I use Dacron fiber fill, with perfect success. And have had zero problem form any filler I've used.

Ross's contest, is rooted in his denial of the value of anything Graeme Wright says,and I think stims from his reluctance to accept Graeme's findings. In this case to tout his formula of, RL15 formula, (cordite loadX 1.19 RL15), and discredit Gaaeme's IMR 4831 formula (cordite load X 1.33), both requireing filler in some cases, to avoid flash over, or inconsistant velocities. The 4831 formula is widely attributed to Graeme Wright, and this isn't the case. This 4831 formula was worked out by Jim Bell of Bell brass, years before Ross, or Graeme were on the sceen, in this context. Both these formulas are to convert, as close as possible, to match CORDITE loads, with these two powders. This in no way negates later experiments by others,with other powders,or even the same powders without fillers, but is central to the article we are discussing here,I think.

Many, through ignorance,luck,or knowing something the rest of us haven't found out, discover other loads, without these two formulas. It is quite evident you have found another way round the mountain! But as you say most of your rifles were sent back over seas, for re-regulation. As long as the pressures are within limits, re-regulation is a cure for the quest of finding a load that works in a particular rifle. This isn't an option to some of us working stiffs, or, in my case, retired working stiffs. The fillers are just one of the methods of makeing a double rifle shoot properly, without re-regulation. As long as they work, and do no harm, what "IS" the harm?

It is my opinion, and it is simply OPINION, that this is where the controversery starts on the use of fillers. If fillers are properly used there is absolutely no draw back to them, and in some of the older cartridges, they are absolutly necessary if 4831, or RL15 are to be used , short of re-regulateing.

I don't know the answer, but I still maintain the 4831 formula works for me, and has for many years, without mishap useing fillers. Of course my name may be in the obits shortly, then you can say "I told you so!!"

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Originally posted by Rusty:
Ray,
I'm not about to change unless they bring Cordite back for us old double users!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

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Rusty!

Your in luck! I have a box of cordite that I bought at a gunshow a few years ago. At least it says Cordite on the box. It is in sticks about 4"s long. I could send you a bit and all you would have to do is snip it off to the right length and load it in you 400. Don't forget to video tape shooting it so in case it doesn't work as planned we can at least show it on the forum.

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Originally posted by Axel:
1894, I thank you for providing that valuable "lesson learned". I hope you do not mind my asking, but why did you need a filler in the 9.3X63 Mauser? In my experience this cartridge has always been very close to completely filled when loaded to advertised velocity.

Thanks,
Axel

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mac,
I find it strange that you are the very person that convinced ME to quit using IMR-4831 and on this very board I might add, as it was dangerous in my Jefferys and I would be better advised to use RL-15...Up to that point I was perfectly satisfied with IMR-4831,

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Ray, I think you have me mixed up with Rusty! I still use 4831, more than RL15. I agree that RL15 is another powder to use if you want. Some of my doubles have never tasted RL15 since I've owned them, but have gotten fat on IMR 4831, and I've never had a problem! Sorry, but it ain't I!

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Originally posted by mickey:
Mac

Bell's formula of 1.33 is only a starting point. My experience has been that it is usually slow and needs to be kicked up a bit. He proposed that formula in the mid 80's when people started to move away from 3031. Later he upped the formula to get closer to the velocity needed. It is also a very general way to start and is not perfect in every type of case. Staighter cases, for example, seem to need more powder.

I don't know Ross Seyfried or his reasons for seeming to push R-15.

Perhaps his ideas developed more from loading Nitro for Blackpowder and not the heavier Cordite loads. I really have no idea and would love the opportunity to talk with him about it. I may be an old dog but I think I can still learn a few new tricks.

Can you believe this is the second page on this topic and no one has insulted or attacked another poster yet. Are some of the manners of the Double rifle makers rubbing off on us?

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Micky, I totally agree with you on the Bell formula as beingt a "LOW" starting point load for double rifles, as it should be! As you are well aware starting at a "BOOK" load in a double can have some grave consequences! Here is where in some of the cases one direly needs fillers, as they work up to a better load. The Cordite X 1.33 = a very low load, and so much that IMO, can be dangerous without filler. Some of the loads I've worked up useing this formula, have finaly gotten heavy enough, by the time regulation was met, that the fillers were not needed. The early stages of a work up with 4831, may be where the problems Seyfried is hearing of damage! Just a thought!

The NBP loads are what the two formulas are the most valuable to duplicate, IMO! Most NE Full nitro loadings are useually alright with one or another somkeless powder, sans filler, especially streight cases. The bottle neck cases are most often so voluminous, that the powder simply slopps around in the case, and need to be supported by something to hold the powder against the primer.

I find the forums dealing with double rifles are usually attended by people who fall into two catagories, a young person who has had trouble finding anyone who knows anything about doubles, and really want information, or people who have been dealing with the quirks of double rifles for years, and have that knowledge. That leaves little space for controversy, IMO. Additionally, most double rifle owners, are usually not confrontational. However, I personally can get my Irish up, at times! Being old,(66) as most double owners are,I don't like controversy, it simply makes me feel bad, whether it is justified, or not. There are many people on this forum who are double rifle oficianados, and I don't know one that is really a "My way" person! Pleasent isn't it?

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Originally posted by 1894:

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Originally posted by Axel:
1894, I thank you for providing that valuable "lesson learned". I hope you do not mind my asking, but why did you need a filler in the 9.3X63 Mauser? In my experience this cartridge has always been very close to completely filled when loaded to advertised velocity.

Thanks,
Axel

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I was trying to be clever and make a practice load utilising .365 95gr Makarov bullets which are so light SR4759 would not work. I started to use unique and dacron and hey presto a ring.

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UNIQUE in a 30-06 case Is a formula for disaster, with or with out fillers, unless fire forming, useing cornmeal, without a bullet! Your ring was not caused by filler, but a totally unsuitable load!

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Originally posted by Atkinson:

A modern day double isn't going to blow with or without a filler...I'd bet you could use a roll of dimes for a filler in one of Butch Searcys guns and get away with it.....

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I bet Butch would like to have this post on his wall!

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Originally posted by DaggaRon:
Maybe a case that is 80% full of RL-15 and 20% full of Dacron fiber (by volume) is just fine?

Maybe a case that is 20% full of Unique and 80% full of Dacron is a bomb?

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Originally posted by MacD37:

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Originally posted by 1894:

quote:

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Originally posted by Axel:
1894, I thank you for providing that valuable "lesson learned". I hope you do not mind my asking, but why did you need a filler in the 9.3X63 Mauser? In my experience this cartridge has always been very close to completely filled when loaded to advertised velocity.

Thanks,
Axel

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I was trying to be clever and make a practice load utilising .365 95gr Makarov bullets which are so light SR4759 would not work. I started to use unique and dacron and hey presto a ring.

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UNIQUE in a 30-06 case Is a formula for disaster, with or with out fillers, unless fire forming, useing cornmeal, without a bullet! Your ring was not caused by filler, but a totally unsuitable load!

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