Gentlemen,

I was talking with a business associate today about guns (screwing off). Turns out he owns a Searcy 500 NE boxlock action. The thing that impressed me was that this rifle does not have a third fastener! It is simply the the underbolts! This is a deluxe model by the way.

Some of you guys own Searcy rifles. I am curious, do your rifles have a third fastener?

Todd E

500grains,
I don't have one so I am interested to hear too. In the past when I saw a Searcy I was not astute enough to pay any attention to this detail.

The only picture on the website with an open action is a Deluxe Grade Under Lever, and it doesn't seem to have one. Nor does a mailed catalog from 2000 show any.

The Searcy doubles do have huge swells as reinforcement.

No side clips.

Chopper Lump (demibloc) barrels are $4000 extra (optional) over the standard monobloc in all the grades. An extra set of monobloc barrels is $8000.

No third fastener options or standard offerings are mentioned anywhere.

The H&H Royal had a hidden third bite that protruded through the extractors.

Are the Searcy doubles so good that they don't need a third fastener?

My humble Merkel of "Krupp Stahl" chopper lump construction has it all, so to speak, though a rising bite third fastener would be nice,and while we are at it, why not a WR drop lock action. That fantasy would probably only more than double the price of my boxlock.

Must be like, if you are not H&H you got to try harder in Europe, specifically Germany. Thank you Krauts.

Searcy does offer a wonderful variety of options, but this country bumpkin is happy with a Merkel, since happily it is available in the 470 NE.

Wipe that smirkel off your faces y'all.

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RAB

When I was visiting with Butch before I ordered my 470 he told me the third fasteners are not needed on his rifles. He also said something else about them but I don't recall exactly what he said. Maybe we can get him to weigh in on this one--who else would be more qualified to comment than the builder himself? He did tell me that only one of his rifles had ever gone off the face--someone evidently tried to duplicate 460 Weatherby ballistics in a 450.
Good Hunting,

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Andy Cooper

[This message has been edited by ACRecurve (edited 05-01-2002).]

RAB,

Unfortunately I am not 500grains.

Todd E

Todd E,
My bad. This is a good point you have brought up to elucidate, hopefully, why a third fastener is not needed on the Searcy, as most other double rifles seem to have them. Are those others just gilding the lilly or a needless fail-safe from a time when steels were not so good?

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RAB

ToddE,

Why is that unfortunate?

DaggaRon,

I didn't notice if there was a third fastener or not. Sorry.

Frankly, I was scared off by the doubles with too many features. I looked at the sticking greener cross bolts on heym and merkels that I saw at sci and imagined them becoming permanently stuck when exposed to a dab or mud or a liberal coating of dust in the field. Maybe that's just my own ignorance, but I believe simpler is better.

500grains,
Since you are hot on the trail of a Searcy double (500 NE?) my sleep deprived slip of address to you instead of Todd E begged the question that you have answered for us. Thanks.

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RAB

Okay guys, my actions are larger and made of much stronger materials than most(95%). My actions are all hardened and drawn, not case hardened. It's much easier to work with steel that requires case hardening. I use a third extension on some rifles that is chambered for some of the higher thrusting cartridges only to reinforce the side to side movement. Bear in mind, all the popular import doubles currently coming in are built on 20 ga. size frames. They are all adequate for normal use by European standards. Most of my customers are Americans and we shoot alot, more than people from other countries. Even the best fitted greener cross bolt systems scare me for reasons previously stated. The only third fastener that works is a properly fitted Westley dolls head.
I've got to go program a machine, be back later.

Can I boil this down?

Use a generous block of top notch steel and a good CNC with carbide cutters to produce a strong, long lasting action.

Or start with soft steel, work it with a dull file, and add some tricks to it to try to keep it in one piece through 500 rounds at 40,000 psi.

Maybe that's too harsh.

Thanks Butch! Like I said I was impressed. I have never seen a big bore double that was not third fastened. I have always believed that the third fastener was there more as a secondary safety than a primary lock up.

Todd E

With a small amount of use a Merkel 470 will have a smooth cross bolt. Also mine did not bind up in 2 weeks of dusty Zim last September.

I love to read of the perceived various different merits of your favorite gun. I bought a Merkel because the dealer I buy most of my stuff from sells them. Also they were in stock and I booked an elephant hunt last year prior to getting a rifle for such. Maybe that is the backwards way but it worked real good on the elephant.

I am glad DaggaRon explained the Merkel's construction. I now know what chopper lumps, side clips and greener cross bolts are.

Keep up the debates, it teaches guys like me a ton.

By the way I would guess that Merkel has CNC machines in their shop also. Maybe even those really good German ones.

BigB

BigB,
I am with you! I find these discussions extremely enlightening. The Merkels surely would cost double at least if some CNC machining was not done. I cannot find any references to them admitting to CNC machining however. [...EDIT: Oh yes I did. See next post below. END EDIT...] All the final fitting and finishing is of course by hand.

I am learning new terms also, just looking at the Merkel catalog: the "swell" is also called a "receiver ledge," well illustrated on the Searcy side by side as well.

Some FAQ's from their catalog:

Q: "Why is my new Merkel so tight when I open and close the action?"
A: Merkel firearms are manufactured and purposely hand-fitted to precise tolerances so as to allow the barrel "break in" to occur under normal shooting conditions. This ensures the longest service life.

Q: "Why have side clips on Merkel side-by-side firearms?"
A: Side clips were originally designed as a locking element used on side-by-side barrels in conjunction with the Greener Crossbolt and barrel lugs. Since this feature cannot be incorporated into mass production, these side clips are ornamental, adding elegance and distinguishing the Merkel as a handcrafted firearm.

Q: What is a receiver ledge and why does Merkel incorporate it into the side-by-sides?"
A: A receiver ledge is an enlarged ridge, forged as part of the receiver just underneath the barrel breech. The receiver ledge adds strength to the receiver and is characteristic of a fine traditionally handcrafted firearm.

Options, customization, and other models than the 140 A (same as 140-2.0) can be had, but one would have to deal directly with the factory in Germany, and that would be harder to do than dealing with Searcy for us.

I am exceedingly well satisfied that I could acquire my Merkel through GSI. As is, it is perfect for me. Fits me well. They do break in well.

Looks like I am going to have to go for a Searcy for a 500 NE some day.

But first, I would rather take a Merkel after elephant, as you have done. Buffalo too ...

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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 05-02-2002).]

BigB,
Jon R. Sundra says: "At Merkel, any operation that lends itself to modern techniques such as CNC or EDM, is so done."

This was in the SCI magazine, July/August 2001.

Here is a link at GSI for a reprint of the article, even if some do consider the messenger to be a hack:

http://www.gsifirearms.com/news-merkel470-2.html

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RAB

I'm not sure but I don't think the Kreighoff's or the William Douglass doubles have third fastners.

The Krieghoff "Classic" with newfangled "de-kicker" safety-cocking-decocking device has a Purdey style third fastener, one of those hidden third fasteners. And their interesting offerings include the 500/416 NE 3-1/4", 500 NE, 470 NE, 375 Flanged NE, as well as the no-no's: 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, and 458 Win.Mag.

Here is what the brochure says about the Krieghoff: "Purdey style extension between the barrels and the face of the standing breech to withstand lateral bending forces."

William Douglas anyone?

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RAB

I went to the Krieghoff site and saw the "hidden" third fastener protruding between the extractors. I learn more about double rifles on this site than anywhere.

I can't find a site for the William Douglass rifles. I looked at these at SCI but I don't really like the lever for the forend release. It seems they release very easy and maybe sometime when you wouldn't want it to.

The Heym doubles are nice. However the grip places the hand very close to the trigger guard. I wonder if it wouldn't give the knuckles a good rap.

William Douglass anyone?

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RAB

/

Met Butch Searcy's "right hand man" - don't recall his name now - a couple of years ago at the Safari Show. When asked why their double didn't have a third fastener, he told me that by using modern steels and a large diameter hinge pin, it was not necessary. Krighoff and Chapius have solved this by using a very (double - triple)wide underlug bearing on the hinge pin. Merkel use a more traditional lockup. However, all of these double rifle use modern steels, something that the grand inventors & builders of 1860:s - 1900:s never had access to.

Vasa

Sufice to say Butch Searcy's rifles do NOT need a third fastener,period, case closed. The older doubles needed everything they could get, because the best steels they were useing in those days was inferior to, the medium quality of today. The old rifles had to be worked mostly by hand file, where the steels of those days were springy, hence the third fastener. Someone above hit the nail on the head, when he said the third fastener is, today, only a back up, as well as a selling point, nothing more. The technology of today makes the geometry of building a double rifle far better, regardless of where it is made. like all other times in history, there have been some double rifles that were better than others. It is no different today. But you don't have to worry about any of todays double rifles that are at least decently fitted.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

What! Krupp steel is not as good or better than the steel of today! What is this! I remember a thread not too long ago upon which the greatest of Thyssen Krupp (just Krupp back then) were stated in volumes.

Third fasteners have almost always been nothing more than secondary locks to help resist overpressures and possibly thrust in the BIG ones.

Todd E

We must demystify this quality of steel issue. "Krupp Stahl" has evolved over the years also. All the post WWII doubles have been made with lighter and stronger steels than the turn of the century pieces.

It would be interesting to find out the specifications on the steels used by various makers nowadays. Merkel, Krieghoff, and Searcy (being the top three shooters to my way of thinking) would make a great comparison of alloy composition, chemical and physical properties, and other metallurgic descriptions of strength and durability, such as tensile strength, modulus of elasticity, density, etc.

I had a metallurgy course when I was a chemical engineering student over 25 years ago, but I don't remember crap about it.

"Sum buddy who knows?"

Edit: And how about the case hardening, heat treating, and "drawing" of these steels, and how it relates to strength and durability? "Any buddy who knows?" I don't know krupp about it.
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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 05-04-2002).]

..And just to add one more to RAB's questions.

Is method of fitting barrels to actions using lamp blackening & filing to best tolerence, is still used?

Saad

RAB,

I cannot speak to the quality of Krupp steel from the turn of the 19th/20th century, but Thyssen Krupp steel in my experience is typically pretty dirty! What this means is. If you look at a section of Thyssen Krupp steel under a microscope you will see the microstructure of the steel with many small inclusions of foreign (nonalloying material typically dirt) in the matrix. These inclusion form the basis for microscopic fatigue cracks. In highly stressed applications dirty steel is a BAD THING!

There are much better quality steels available than Thyssen Krupp. These steels typically come from the US or the UK. The Japanese (Nippon Steel) is better than Thyssen Krupp also. The Thyssen Krupp alloy that I have the most experiece with is 17CRMONi6. This is very close to SAE 4320. This is alloy is a chrome/moly/nickel steel. We do not purchase a "cheap" grade either.

Regarding some of your questions:

Young's Modulus (Modulus of Elasticity) will be about the same for all steels. This includes the stainless variety. In real world applications the variation between the alloys is of insignificance. Young's Modulus is only a determinator of stiffness. Typicall values for steels range roughly between 29,000,000 psi to 30,000,000psi.

The Ultimate strength will be roughly the same in Tension and Compression with steels. The heat treating will increase the strength tempering will reduce the strength, but will improve the elongation properties, i.e. increase ductility. This is a good thing. Also, different alloys will exhibit different degrees of ductility at a certain strength and hardness. Ideally we want a steel with good surface hardness, strength, and ductility. The SAE 4100 series can do this, the SAE 4300 series are better yet, and the 410 series stainless are very good also. The SAE 4100 series steels will exhibit the least ductility for a given strength and hardness.

I would prefer a case carburized action to through hardened action due to the fact that the case (say Rc 58-62)will resist wear very well and the softer core (say Rc of 42 - 48) will produce an action that is strong and ductile improving fatigue life dramatically.

Needless to say the Thyssen Krupp name does not fill me with joy. In my experience they are manufacturers of relatively cheap steel. Only slightly better than steels made in many third world nations (specifically Mexico).

Now some buddy who know correct me. I am truly curious to know how/what Searcy is using, but I cannot believe he would post his trade secrets (material and heat treat specs) on the web!

Saad,

I would prefer a precision ground and scaped in action to a file fit. The scraping will provide you with some of the truest (from flatness perspective) surfaces obtainable. This insures maximum surface contact and therefore minimum surface stress. It is the surface (correct term Hertzian stress) stress of the hinge pin to lump bearing raceway that causes the double to shoot off the face.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 05-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 05-04-2002).]

Todd E,
Thanks for the reply. Still a lot of questions to be answered for those who want to know.

What is your capacity in purchasing steel and to what use do you put it? What sort of steel items have you been sectioning and looking at under the microscope? You seem to have a great background in engineering, the physical sciences, and gunsmithing, yet you are an LEO? Are you the "LEO-CEO Armorer Extraordinaire" or what? You seem to have a fascinating combination of occupational skills and knowledge.

I am just a "humble little country doctor" for the past twenty years and not an expert in any of these issues under consideration. I have been a gun nut since I was eight years old, still learning.

It would seem that a third fastener would benefit any double rifle in resisting the bending forces that occur in opposite directions sequentially when right and left barrels fire. The leverage provided by the barrel demibloc or monobloc extension locking into the breech face will surely prevent wobble and wear on the hinge pin and bites of the lugs. Butch Searcy has said that he includes a third fastener in some of his larger doubles, there must be a reason for that?

If an action is to open and close, there has to be a bit of clearance around the lugs. Likewise if the underbolts are to seat and slide free on opening and closing there has to be some tolerance in the clearance there.

There has to be some minimum slop in the action if it is going to work and not be prone to binding and galling with the least little grit or grime, a criticism of the third fastener itself noted above. The third fastener can only help to prevent the wobble from getting greater and going "off face," just as meticulous cleaning and lubrication of the bearing surfaces after use does.

I will look forward to any education in steel alloys, hardening processes, hand fitting techniques after the CNC, when does the third fastener become necessary, and what is this "drawing" process in steel treatment.

Sum buddy who know?

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RAB

RAB,

No I am not the LEO-CEO Armourer or whatever you said. I do not purchase steel directly myself. I have had opportunities to examine steel samples however. The samples I have examined were used for hypiod gears, differential gears, connecting rods, and crankshafts. These were forgings and were considered to be top quality by the forge house (in this case Thyssen Krupp). I provide only competitive analysis for your review. The Thyssen Krupp steel is not the worse available by any stretch of the imagination it is also a far cry from the best also! In my experience I would rate it as average to slightly below average.

To answer your question about drawing. It is essentially the same thing as tempering. It is a secondary heat treatment process were a hardened piece of steel is reheated to a lower temperature to reduce residual stresses induced by the quenching process in the original heat treatment. Depending upon the tempering/drawing temperature used you will can reduce hardness and strength while increasing ductility. Almost without exception hardened steels are tempered/drawn to increase their toughness (ductility).

The primary lock up on your double (Merkel) are the underbites. The underbites are in fact a cam design and are self adjusting to compensate for the wear of their active surfaces and to some degree the hinge pin and lump raceway (this is why a rifle which is shooting off the face still seems tight for a little while anyway). Your Greener cross bolt almost certainly is not self adjsuting. The cross bolt is installed to resist the opening of the breech due to the thrust of the shot. Specifically the cross bolt is there to keep the rifle's action closed (hopefully) in case of a pressure spike (as routinely happened with cordite in the tropics). It is there as an additional safety for the underbites and hinge pin. The cross bolt has almost no effect on countering the twisting of the underlug as you suggest. This twisting of the lump (underlug) is resisted by a dolls head or a hidden third fastener only after the action has deflected enough to eliminate the clearance between said dolls head and the action walls. So regardless you will get some wear of the face. The dolls head will also perform the same function as the cross bolt if properly fitted. The swells provide an additional resistance to the twisting. That is why your Merkel has these swells by the way.

In the old days with the unpredictable pressure spikes that were the norm with cordite many manufacturers threw everything they could into the action to make sure (hopefully) that during one of these pressure spikes the gun did not blow open. That is it simply put. It would appear that you basically understand all these concepts and are just seeing if anyone agrees with you.

If you are truly interested in Metallurgy I suggest you go to SAE.org and check out their bookstore. There are numerous texts on metallurgy. Metallurgy as you well know is an Engineering Discipline unto itself.

Todd E

Todd E,
Thanks for the explanation of the drawing process. And the directions to the books.

What the heck is a "hypiod" gear? Do you think the steel used in gears, connecting rods, and crankshafts would be the same as that selected by a gunmaker from the Krupp offerings, of which there are many? I know the gunmakers have quality controls and inspections on the steels they use and surely would reject a batch with "dirt" "non-alloyed" within.

The swell or reciever ledge strengthens the action and thus by stiffening will aid in maintaining lockup. The sideclips will have something more direct to do with lockup if properly executed, eh?

I will add metallurgy to my list of hobbies.

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 05-05-2002).]

RAB,

A hypoid gear is what is in the rear axle of a car or truck. It is by definition a spiral bevel gear set with crossed axis. This means that the centerlines of the gears do not intersect, but cross. The dirt I am refering to by the way is very small. It is common to see this in most commercial steel grades. I doubt if most gund manufacturers pay the big bucks to get rid of it. Also, you need a pretty good Metallurgy Lab to have the equipment needed to see it.

You are correct about the side clips stiffening the action. However, their benefit in this regard (action stiffening) is very limited. Deflection (stiffness) is defined as the double integral of the forcing function divided by the product of the area moment of inertia (I) and Young's modulus (E). Since the forcing function can be assumed to be constant (same cartridge being fired in the same barrels), as well as, Young's modulus (same material) we can stiffen the action only by modification to the area moment of inertia (I).

If we consider the stiffening benefit of the side clip and consider it to be a rectangular cross section for ease of example the area moment of inertia of a rectangle is given by the equation:

I = [base * height^3] / 12.

As you can see since are side clips are not very tall (height) their benefit is not truly significant from a stiffness perspective. However, in the function of resisting the twisting of the lump the side clips does provide more stiffening since it is greater in height in that plane.

Todd E

Let us all understand the difference between the swell (reciever ledge) and the other feature mentioned, the sideclip. The sideclip is a projection laterally at the ball or fence area of the receiver breech face, which mates with a beveled surface on the lateral side of each barrel breech. The sideclip is pretty useless unless it is carefully fitted.

The Searcy action has about the most massive swell I have seen on any gun. Just look at a picture of any of them to see this.

Very few doubles have sideclips at all, but most have some degree of swell or reciever ledge.

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RAB

Todd E,
Oh, you meant "hypoid" not "hypiod" ... just a typo.

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RAB

RAB,

Yes that was a typo. I apologize for my poor typing skills. My hands are TOO big for these keyboards! I understand the difference between a mere side clip and a full swell. In reality however the swells while massive do not increase the vertical bending stiffness as much as you may think they DO increase the lateral (horizontal) bending stiffness considerably.

I do hope you realize I did not start this thread to put down double rifles with third fasteners. I have handled a Merkel and found them to be very high quality rifles for the money. I have fondled 1 Searcy 470 NE Field grade and it was very nice also. I knew that the 470 NE had no third fastener. I was impressed that the 500 NE did not either. My intention was to point out the fact that Searcy does not incorporate a third fastener an all his doubles. The reason is sound engineering. Basically, it would seem Mr. Searcy (and others) have finally applied science to the art of the double rifle. In other words they have considered the benefits of modern steels, heat treatments, and propellants and determined that with proper design utilizing these materials the third fastener is no longer needed except for the heaviest of thrusting doubles.

I am curious why everyone questions my creditials because I come across as technically literate. Is there some law that says a LEO must be a neanderthal?

Todd E

Todd E,
I think it is your stated expertise on various subjects that makes some of us wonder about your credentials, just as we might check the syllabus of a lecturer in a conference. A multifaceted, well educated LEO, eh? Well, you must be one of those 99th percentile LEO's.

You have brought a lot of good information and experience to these discussions. Thanks.

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RAB

/

The Searcy website says they use an Anson & Deeley style action, but they make it themselves.

/

Alf,

I am not going to argue with you since it is pointless. You obviously do not understand mechanical design and materials science at all. It is too much work to try and get you to understand because you very obviously want only to argue.

I will tell you that you KNOW NOTHING ABOUT DOUBLES! Quit reading the books. I have seen doubles blown open. Luckily none of them have been severe enough to cause serious injury. The Purdey bolting gave way not the barrels! A properly designed barrel is very strong and can withstand far more pressure than the Purdey bolts can withstand in shear. The shear is generated SOLELY by the rearward thrust of the cartridges, which creates a couple. This couple is resisted by the counter couple of the hinge pin to face. The third fastener (not necessarily a bolt) is there to provided added insurance that is it. I agree with Butch that the Westely Doll's Head is the best.

O/U shotguns and rifles are bolted entirely differently than are SXS! The O/U is almost without exception stronger than a SXS. This is common sense. I have said my peace I am not arguing this anymore. After all I am only an ignorant LEO.

Todd E

/

DaggaRon, and Alf, Butting heads solves nothing, and only serves to make both sound like the thunder found in a storm, something everyone hears, but not something anyone enjoys!

There is absolutely nothing wrong in reading the old experts on any matter, and the double rifle owners of today will never have the experience these old dudes had. The high cost of doubles today coupled with the lack the vast unregulated herds of yesteryear, being quoted today, leave only the shooting of a few dozen, rather than thousands of animals the way all this knowledge was aquired, by wareing out double rifles on game, by the old timers. I'm only 65 years old, and I got my first double rifle when I was 17 years old, and have owned many many more since that time, and there is a whole bunch I do not know about double rifles. That, however, does not mean the things I "DO" know, are not worth anything. Since you are the only one sitting in front of your computer, you tend to think everything you see is aimed at you,alone. It never ceases to amaze me, how people will say things on the computer, without a thought, that they wouldn't say to the person, if face to face! Assumeing a person knows nothing because he has not been a professional student all his life is rediculous. I personally know a man that never finished grade school, but in his 67 years, has become a millionaire twice over. Schooling is not the cause of intellegence, but the intelligent training of the intelect.

Because two people see the same thing differently is nothing to be angered about, and calling names is the mark of a man who cannot uphold his possition, and screams to avert attention from that fact.

I agree with both you guys on just about everything, simply because you are both oppsite sides of the same coin, and the thickness between you is razor blade thin, that ain't much, Hoss. I'm the razor blade between you two, and I can bend either way!

Manners, gentelmen! Nothing is solved by the way this string is headed.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 05-05-2002).]

Mac,
You are very right sir.

Alf,

My sincerest apologizes. I took offense to your statements about doubles not bursting open only bursting barrels. I had a 12 gauge blow open in my face once long ago I have never forgotten it. It is a sobering experience I assure you. My "buddy" had double charged at least one shell (the one I fired). Ruin a nice shotgun too. The barrels were fine though (except for the lump that is)! Please forgive my "attitude" problem. I have seen a couple burst open double rifles and several (I mean several) shotguns. I have heard that some of the damascus steel barreled rifles burst their barrels with modern smokeless loads, but I have yet to see an actual gun.

The biggest reason that the old guns "steel" is not as good as the new guns "steel" can potentially be is that the modern machining processes can handle hardened steel. The old timers could not "machine" hardened steel, which by definition is "file hard". This meant that the actions were left "green" (soft). This effectively increases ductility (often greatly) but reduces strength (almost always greatly). If the hinge pin is sized correctly (bearing stress analysis came into it's own about 75 to 80 years ago) the stresses on the hing pin can be set well below the yield or even the endurance limit of the material in question. This can also be done for the bolting. Therefore, the third fastener need not be included except in such instances as the packaging envelope of the gun dictates that the hinge pin and/or bolting cannot be sized to allow acceptable stress levels in these components.
This appears to be what has been done with many of the modern doubles and that is what I meant by the statement "science has been brought to the art of the double rifle".

I know full well the origins of the double rifle. Most modern double rifles are built on 28 or 20 gauge shotgun actions. The thrust of a 12 gauge shotgun for instance is about the same as a 470 NE load.

The amazing thing about the history of the double gun is the craftsman ship exhibited in their creation! Particularly when you consider the tools that were used.

Todd E

Alf,

There are still plenty of Model A Fords that still run, but I think that new cars are a bit more durable than those 80 year old Model A's.