I was working up loads for CFA's Holland & Holland 500/465 when the right barrel burst.
More details are on www.nitroexpress.com

Holy Cow! Hope that is an April Fool's joke!
Will have to go check that out.

RIP
It is no joke I assure you.

WHEW! Glad everyone is OK!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Have you determined what may have been the cause?
Glad you survived witout injury but I am sure you will be looking into a new set of shorts on Walters merchandise page.
Frank

John,
I was lucky, the bbl burst about 2 inches in front of my fingers. I never found the 6" piece of bbl that blew out.

Frank, Actually I knew something was wrong
as soon as I pulled the trigger... the recoil was all wrong. However I was never scared, and when I discovered the bbl had blown the danger was over, However when you look at an H&H with a blown bbl it does tend to give you a sick feeling in your stomach.
CFA and I are just lucky it happened here instead of on his elephant hunt.

The direct link

Double Rifle Burst Barrel

Hello NE 450,
I am very happy that you suffered no injuries and I am really glad that George stepped up to the plate and coverd your action!

I had a 500/465 H&H Dominion grade a while back and it was the biggest piece of garbage I have ever owned! It was terribly inaccurate, kicked like an indignant camel and had a wonderful habit of doubling more often than not! I spent a lot of money trying to correct this boat anchor and finally sold it to a guy in the South East part of the country. I will stick with my Rigby and Westley and will never own another Holland as long as I live!

Glad nobody was hurt!

This sort of thing would never happen to a thick barreled 10.75 pound Merkel 140-2 in .470 NE. She's a sturdy gal.

It is hard to believe that such a delicious trollup as that H&H is now tits up!

You know RIP I am almost ready to agree with you. After owning 25 English double rifles I can honestly say that " I am ready to try something a little more modern and the hell with tradition". I am really leaning toward a Searcy in a 470 sidelock.

NE, so now what? Knowning a little to nothing about doubles,other than what I read here,,do you hae another set of barrels made? Or is this not possiable due to the age of the weapon?

quote:

N E 450 No2

Wahts the bill going to be to put new barrel's on it or is this just the end of the road for that double?

Am i understand how you feel guy.. It does put a pit in your gut
I have had a rifle i love blow up on me as well
My stock split in 4 diffrent place's
Your just really lucky your hand was a bit back
on the forarm....

Pottsy

Dave and Martin,
There is no problem putting new barrels on an original British Double Rfle.
It is however not cheap.

The H&H is back in the hands of the original owner. I think the plan is to rebarrel.
In this case the ribs were not hurt. There are 3 options.
1. Rebarrel from scatch, new bbls, ribs sights etc.
2. New bbls using the original sights and ribs.
3.New bbls, using the original ights and ribs AND using the original breach section of the bbls, sleeving the new bbls into the old, thus using the original chopper lumps.
Method 2 and 3 are most commom, Number 3 is the least expensive.

Holland & Holland gets @ $25,000 US to rebarrel.
A Pureist would re bbl back to 500/465, the "shooter" would re bbl to 470.
If it was my rifle I would consider also having a set of bbls made in 375 Flanged, or 9,3x74R, with claw scope mounts.

This H&H Dominion is well worth rebarreling.
I have seen a couple of doubles rebarreled by JJ at Champlins and his work is first rate.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Dave and Martin,
There is no problem putting new barrels on an original British Double Rfle.
It is however not cheap.

The H&H is back in the hands of the original owner. I think the plan is to rebarrel.
In this case the ribs were not hurt. There are 3 options.
1. Rebarrel from scatch, new bbls, ribs sights etc.
2. New bbls using the original sights and ribs.
3.New bbls, using the original ights and ribs AND using the original breach section of the bbls, sleeving the new bbls into the old, thus using the original chopper lumps.
Method 2 and 3 are most commom, Number 3 is the least expensive.

Holland & Holland gets @ $25,000 US to rebarrel.
A Pureist would re bbl back to 500/465, the "shooter" would re bbl to 470.
If it was my rifle I would consider also having a set of bbls made in 375 Flanged, or 9,3x74R, with claw scope mounts.

This H&H Dominion is well worth rebarreling.
I have seen a couple of doubles rebarreled by JJ at Champlins and his work is first rate.

New Chopper lump barrels can be had from US$8k. Use all the old parts you can and make sure it has proof marks. British would be best. Austrian second.

The rifle will not be worth what a Holland would be worth but it would still be worth much more than any of the new, under 20k rifles.

Sure beats a total loss.

I like the 465 and 375F combo.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
I like the 465 and 375F combo.

Yes very nice.

Luvrecoletta,

I’m surprised you could not find someone to at least stop your rifle doubling.

There is no inherent problem with the back action lock-work that’s fitted to the Dominion model which would prevent it being adjusted to avoid doubling. Many problems relating to older guns are due to subsequent repair or maintainence by ‘gunsmiths’ who are not sufficiently experienced (or skilled).

After all that years the rifles been around I’d hesitate to blame the maker for the doubling problem.

Recoil: Did it fit you? I assume it was of what would be considered ‘average weight’ for the calibre.

I wonder if the inaccuracy & the doubling were related to the “kick�

Regards
Webley

quote:

Originally posted by WEBLEY 701:
Luvrecoletta,

I’m surprised you could not find someone to at least stop your rifle doubling.

There is no inherent problem with the back action lock-work that’s fitted to the Dominion model which would prevent it being adjusted to avoid doubling. Many problems relating to older guns are due to subsequent repair or maintainence by ‘gunsmiths’ who are not sufficiently experienced (or skilled).


Regards
Webley

Webley

Well said. There are many gunsmiths that can talk the talk but only a handful that can walk the walk.

I have found that a lot of the old guns that are considered 'sub standard' are the product of poor gunsmithing more over use.

I once bought a H&H that was loose at the pin and had been polished and hot blued, action and barrels. The right firing pin stuck and the stock was cracked from the sloppy installation of a recoil bolt. The firing pin had been 'fixed' by some hack, as had the stock and the 'refinishing'.

Quite a few people would say it wasn't worth the effort but it had good bores and was easily repairable. It cost 3x the purchase price to put it right, in England, and sold for 10x.

I can't believe some of the claims made by gunsmiths as too their ability and there knowledge of a complicated rifle like a Double. It is one thing to know how it is supposed to work but too many don't understand why it needs to work a certain way.

When I hear that 'Bob', the local parts changer, knows all about working on Doubles I cringe. It is pretty hard to convince someone there favourite smith is really at a loss on a Double.

Years ago I was in the Griffin & Howe showroom in NYC. They had a Westley Richards 470 hanging on the wall with a burst barrel about midway.

quote:

Originally posted by WEBLEY 701:
Luvrecoletta,

I’m surprised you could not find someone to at least stop your rifle doubling.

There is no inherent problem with the back action lock-work that’s fitted to the Dominion model which would prevent it being adjusted to avoid doubling. Many problems relating to older guns are due to subsequent repair or maintainence by ‘gunsmiths’ who are not sufficiently experienced (or skilled).

After all that years the rifles been around I’d hesitate to blame the maker for the doubling problem.

Recoil: Did it fit you? I assume it was of what would be considered ‘average weight’ for the calibre.

I wonder if the inaccuracy & the doubling were related to the “kick�

Regards
Webley

Hello Webley,

I had this rifle gone over by two fellows who are considered tops in their field. The rifle weighed 10 lbs 14 ounces and had a 14 3/8 lop from the front trigger. Here is the real mystery of this gun, If you fired the right trigger first it would not double. If you fired the left trigger it would double every time. The rifle came up nicely and I had no complaints regarding the fit. Recoil does not really bother me but I had two other friends shoot the rifle as well and the found the thing inaccurate as well. This is the only double I have ever owned that was such a royal pain in the ass! From the first shot I took with it, it never " felt right "! I wish I could be more specific but that is it in a nut shell.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

quote:

Originally posted by WEBLEY 701:
Luvrecoletta,

I’m surprised you could not find someone to at least stop your rifle doubling.

There is no inherent problem with the back action lock-work that’s fitted to the Dominion model which would prevent it being adjusted to avoid doubling. Many problems relating to older guns are due to subsequent repair or maintainence by ‘gunsmiths’ who are not sufficiently experienced (or skilled).


Regards
Webley

Webley

Well said. There are many gunsmiths that can talk the talk but only a handful that can walk the walk.

I have found that a lot of the old guns that are considered 'sub standard' are the product of poor gunsmithing more over use.

I once bought a H&H that was loose at the pin and had been polished and hot blued, action and barrels. The right firing pin stuck and the stock was cracked from the sloppy installation of a recoil bolt. The firing pin had been 'fixed' by some hack, as had the stock and the 'refinishing'.

Quite a few people would say it wasn't worth the effort but it had good bores and was easily repairable. It cost 3x the purchase price to put it right, in England, and sold for 10x.

I can't believe some of the claims made by gunsmiths as too their ability and there knowledge of a complicated rifle like a Double. It is one thing to know how it is supposed to work but too many don't understand why it needs to work a certain way.

When I hear that 'Bob', the local parts changer, knows all about working on Doubles I cringe. It is pretty hard to convince someone there favourite smith is really at a loss on a Double.

I agree with you completely. The word "gunsmith" is very scary and there are more hacks than skilled, knowledgeable artists out there. The two fellows I used are highly respected and recognized as top craftsmen.

So what is the final determination as to why she blew?????

If I had a blown English double I would take it to Rick Stickley, then I would camp there until it was finished and never let him out of my sight. I would shoot him in the knee if he stopped working on it, then the ankle and so fouth... Price would be about $4,000. and done right...

Ray, baised on the two other bbls that I saw that had burst in the same manner, one with Federal Factory 470,s, I think the problem is with the bbl steel. Whether it is the steel itself or something done in the manufacturing of the bbls or the joining of them I cannot say. The bbls are supposed to be tested.
When I hear anything I will pass it on.

George has sent pieces of two blown barrels (including the Holland) and a piece of a barrel that had not blown for metalurgy tests. The piece that blew started nearest the forend and produced a blackend area then the rest of the hole was clean steel. From reading and hearing about quite a few doubles that blew, the majority of the time they have blown either the right or left barrel in about the same place. Perhaps that is the place of less steel than the chamber and still high pressure. There may be a correlation between a certain vintage or perhaps pre WW1 and barrel failure.

JJ will rebarrel the Holland however the original owner wants it done, unfortunately it will never be a "complete" Holland again and that is a shame for that rifle handled like a dream and was beutifully balanced. but from a practical standpoint it will be a very solid gun and with JJ doing it will group very well. I will have the opportunity to buy it back with new barrels or let George find me another one.
George stood behind that rifle and returned the entire purchase price. I would not want to deal with anyone else. When I do find another one and you can bet it will be another vintage English double I will probably have the barrels x-rayed before I buy it plus try to follow up on whether there is any correlation between a particular vintage and barrel failure. If anyone on this forum knows of any specific barrel failure patterns please post as that would be very helpful to all of us.

CFA

Photos?

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Photos?

CFA said he didn't have any photos. Boy, am I glad my mobile phone has a built-in camera; if that ever happens to me, I'm going to fill up the phone's memory!

George

Several ideas come to mind, but I also suspect thin steel at that area of the barrels..All the English guns that I have seen blown up burst at that precise point...

Some options could be IMR-3031 or its equivelent with a filler, that has happened before..Its a bad double rifle powder but was once quite popular...Another is double ignition by one of the 4831 powders that have a long pressure area down the bore...This has been rumoured in the past...

But more likely old structurly imperfect steel of yesteryear is the culprit, and time has taken its toll...

Ray

RL 15 was used with Woodleigh softs and the proper load. Was grouping well and NE was just about to say it's finished, then it blew with no warning. I expect it was a week spot in the steel but now I have to figure out how to test a set of barrels before I pay for it and start to work out a load. If there was a correltion to specific time period and barrel failure, even it was all pre WW1 rifles one would know what to avoid to have the best chance. I just do not want to give up on my dream to hunt elephant with a vintage double.

CFA

That is a shame, but with the magic of JJ, it should be a much better rifle when all is said and done...
Amazing that a better rifle can lose so much value by being corrected, and therein lies my disgust with English double rifles, the worlds greatest con job....
I still love them, but I know their weaknesses, many of them are shot out, worn out, been redone a dozen times, and that is to be expected..but there are quite a few out there that are still pristene, mostly due to recoil and lack of shooting, they are to be cherished, and too nice to hunt with IMO..but even at that the materials were not what we have today..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
and therein lies my disgust with English double rifles, the worlds greatest con job....

I love it!

It is a lot safer to purchase a newly-made rifle with a manufacturer's warranty.

I agree with Ray. After all the years of fooling with the English guns I concur. The Limeys are the best con men in the business and really enjoy bending one over for a proper reaming! The sun never sets on the British empire as you cannot trust them after dark!

Now Ray just how are you having your Searcy stock redone and what are you copying?

500

Perhaps you didn't read that George Caswell at Champlin gave a 100% warranty even with handloads.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If I had a blown English double I would take it to Rick Stickley, then I would camp there until it was finished and never let him out of my sight. I would shoot him in the knee if he stopped working on it, then the ankle and so fouth... Price would be about $4,000. and done right...

Ray

Who is this guy? Where can he get a pair of Chopper lump barrels for $4k let alone cheap enough to fit and finish it too for that price?

quote:

Originally posted by CFA:
Now Ray just how are you having your Searcy stock redone and what are you copying?

500

Perhaps you didn't read that George Caswell at Champlin gave a 100% warranty even with handloads.

Does that apply to all used doubles purchased at his store? I will be very impressed if it does, and that would certainly take the risk out of the transaction for the purchaser.

500

I can't speak for George on that, but he told me when I started looking at his guns that he would stand behind anything he sold. Then when he learned the barrel blew he said that regardless of what the original owner did he would return my money. So you can see why I am so high on George. He and JJ are great people to deal with.

CFA

I won't get into the discusion about english doubles here because I have no personal experience with them besides the fact that many are mouth wateringly gorgeous.

But I can say that I've dealt with George Caswell and my experience was top notch as was the early 1950's FN mauser I bought from him. He is a stand up guy and I'd do business with him again.

I feel badly for George in all this, because typically on a consignment gun he would receive a 15% commission, less overhead for his store, so he might have to sell a lot of rifles to cover one that goes bad.

George does a lot of business and of course his reputation is of upmost importance to him. He buys and sells direct as well take guns on consignment. In this case it was on consignment and the original owner sent back the money he had been paid. But I have no doubt that George would have returned my money if he owned it direct.

FYI George is in the process now of trying to pinpoint time periods of failure as well as look into testing procedures to check out a vintage rifle that appears in good shape and metal that has failed.

CFA

Anybody done a trace on these old types with factory and other loads that are being put
together???????????Some loads may act like
some we see discussed on another thread(hairy
assed, secondary,pressure spikes), and
if that is happening any load doing that no matter how long or how much it is used,
how famous it is, how many gun writers
promote it, manuals use it, etc, must be
fixed.EVEN THE FACTORY LOADS.They can't be used in thin walled doubles if any of them are
putting out traces like that.Ed.