Well said Ed

Don't get me wrong, I love those old English guns, but I do fear too many junkers are floating around...The good ones are better than the stockmarket or realistate IMO...

Micky,
Rick used to work for Bollinger, and actually made Bollingers guild gun, he is a Tenn.hillbilly by birth, and he has no business head, but he is as good a metal smith as there is..He makes doubles from re hardened Browning BSS shotguns and they are excellent guns...I have owned a couple of them and I stocked one for him..I have seen some double square bridge magnum mauser actions he built with hidden square bridges, I cannot tell you how darn nice they were...He is an amazement, but you need to stay right by his side or he will put you job on the shelf and forget it! He has a good heart, just gets a little confused from time to time and folks don't get their guns for years if ever, it took me a long time to figure out that he is honest as can be, but he's just a little short on the top end to the point of being disfunctional......

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Anybody done a trace on these old types with factory and other loads that are being put
together???????????Some loads may act like
some we see discussed on another thread(hairy
assed, secondary,pressure spikes), and
if that is happening any load doing that no matter how long or how much it is used,
how famous it is, how many gun writers
promote it, manuals use it, etc, must be
fixed.EVEN THE FACTORY LOADS.They can't be used in thin walled doubles if any of them are
putting out traces like that.Ed.

There are a couple of reports on the NitroExpress thread that speak of Federal Premium 470 loads blowing out barrels in the same place. I know of one double that blew out, same place, with R-15.

I am not a fan of fillers as they can be very eratic and R-15 creates pressure down the barrel. I wonder how much can be attributed to R-15 and fillers as well as 'weak steel'?

Mickey,

What powder do you use in the .470 which does not require a filler? I am considering using H4350 in the .500 NE.

Mickey that is why all these loads used in place of cordite have got to be tested, with
the "BAD" testing system.IE gives you info you
don't want to know.And checked with different throating and worn throating, and slippery bore riders that don't engage rifling until the rearend of bullet gets to rifling,Alot of folks cussed cordite but it filled cases 90% and once ignited it never hesitated.Oh it was heat sensitive, but strong for sure.

500-There is a formula to use 4831 to replace
cordite, you use 1.33(corrected by RIP,
thanks RIP) times as much 4831;
To keep right pressure and hit same aim point.
But that still leaves airspace.I am no fan of anything you have to shoot with less than 90% fill.And if you used slow ball like AA8700
or H-870 and filled 90% plus-- peak pressures would be ok, but they might not regulate to
same aim point, and taller pressure curve,
after peak pressure is falling in the timeline
down the barrel, might still damage weakened metal in the places where they are blowing
out now. Damned if you do and damned if....Ed.

Review of Cordite conversion for my own benefit:

IMR 4831 grains = 1.33 x cordite grains

RL-15 grains = 1.19 x cordite grains

Mickey,
Those Federal loads have no filler, just a lot of air space, RL-15, and the hotter F216 primer.

I still say get a Merkel for a shooter. Then wax nostalgic about the German settlers of Tanzania stalking bongo and stopping lion charges with their .470 NE Merkel double rifles circa 1920. That is what Bartle Bull would have us believe.

RIP-Do you know if anyone has tested the
Federal loads in guns of different throating
with pressure trace.On different barrel
weights and lengths..Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
RIP-Do you know if anyone has tested the
Federal loads in guns of different throating
with pressure trace.On different barrel
weights and lengths..Ed.

Ed,
No I do not. That would be interesting indeed.
I have chronographed the Federal Factory stuff and found it to be very erratic, I think depending on how the powder is lying in the case at time of ignition: air space at the rear or airspace at the front or air space along the top of the powder charge???

Could the powder charge be igniting unreliably, but starting down the barrel then finishing the burn at the weak point of the barrel?

I am not going to volunteer to buy the equipment for lawndart, but I nominate him for the testing nevertheless.

Find a 470, and set it up with pressure trace,
if loads are erratic, just so we can find
what is happening.Maybe Denton who has testing
experience.Somebody take him a 470. Jeff will be testing similiar shape case. Maybe he will
be a help, with a variety of bullet styles and powder types, that he will be testing on his 550 Flanged for load developement.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:

500-There is a formula to use 4831 to replace
cordite, you use 1.33(corrected by RIP,
thanks RIP) times as much 4831;
To keep right pressure and hit same aim point.
But that still leaves airspace.I am no fan of anything you have to shoot with less than 90% fill.And if you used slow ball like AA8700
or H-870 and filled 90% plus-- peak pressures would be ok, but they might not regulate to
same aim point, and taller pressure curve,
after peak pressure is falling in the timeline
down the barrel, might still damage weakened metal in the places where they are blowing
out now. Damned if you do and damned if....Ed.

Ed,

I have an IMR4831 load that works fine (in my .500 NE) but it has 2 disadvantages. First, IMR4831 seems to have a bit of temperature sensativity, so I would like to work with one of the Hodgdon Extreme powders (probably H4350?). Second, with monolithic bullets, I can't fit quite enough IMR4831 into the case. My regulating load is 110 grains IMR4831 with a 570 gr bullet.

Your the safest using loads, which fill case.Not absolutely safe
as slower powders put more pressure later in the curve which may effect older thinner weakened barrels, halfway down the length.

I wonder if 4831SC Extreme might work as it is a little denser and you might get enough in for regulating solid
bullets.And it is supposed to be temperature insensitive.

Have you tried seating the solids out further or is your throat short?Is your gun old thin barrel or newer with heavier barrel?

This whole thing is a problem.Federal using RL-15 on their
470 loadings to try to get quick perfect ignition,to be similiar to cordite for regulating barrels, but can't fill the case, is like using the shotgun process, for the want of a better word.IE smaller charges to get load going, hoping fire doesn't go out, and then
start up again, when bullet may have slowed... But in shotgun technology they use wads and cards to
take up space so their is no air and a constant pressure is held
against burning powder to keep burning at a steady gain and load at a steady gain in speed.Nobody would load a 10 gauge with powder and no wads or just a little fluff in there,
with a big airspace.Ed.

Ed,

Mine's a new one. I had not considered H4831 SC because it is slower burning than IMR4831, so I was guessing I would need about 114 grains for it to regulate. But maybe in the SC, that would take less powder space.

Seating bullets further out is really not an option because the bullets need to be crimed, and the Woodleighs have but one crimp groove.

500gr--Some use 5744 for reduced squib loads,
which seems to hold fire good once started, and is less dense than most powders.But those loads have a bit of airspace, and to increase charges to full power speeds would give too high
pressures I think..
Gives me an idea-maybe something to check out--the surplus 7383 used in bmg spotter cases
is a similiar type powder, that can't be used
compressed or pressures take a jump, but it
may be enough slower than 5744, thus needing more volume in case and maybe it would work,getting the amount in to get your 2150 velocity, but
not have an excess amount of airspace.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Mickey,

What powder do you use in the .470 which does not require a filler? I am considering using H4350 in the .500 NE.

Rifle: John Wilkes
Bullet: 500 grain Woodleigh
Charge: 103 grains IMR 4831
Primer: Federal 215
Velocity: 2115 fps
Group: 1.75" @ 50 yards

Mickey, thanks for the load.

Ed, I use 45.0 gr. 5744 with 500 grain (not 570 grain) cast lead which regulates well. And there is no recoil. Power-wise, it is about like shooting a trapdoor Springfield.

How slow is 7838? Is it faster or slower than H4831?

500gr--I don't know the speed compared to
4831, at the density it would be used in big bore cases, with about
85-90% fill of capacity, to bullet base,that I think would work. I would test some in my two
little blasters(only 4.5 tons ME), if someone sent me some.If cases are full it speeds up,
so you can't do that, and it really acts differently in small cases compared to big,
so you can't use it like it has been done in
smaller cases, and fill percentages in small.
But with the right fill percentage and bullet
weight it should work great.Ie don't use 800 gr
bullets in 500 NE.

Has anybody tried regulating new doubles with slower Alliant stuff like RL-19.I know you can get speed needed.

Has anyone heard of a blowout in the Nitro Expresses using 3031?

CFA

quote:

Originally posted by CFA:
Has anyone heard of a blowout in the Nitro Expresses using 3031?

CFA

Yes.