The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .404J or .416 Dakota?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hi everyone, I have a M70 Stainless Classic in .300 UM which I am seriously considering having rebarreled to either .404 Jeffery or .416 Dakota. On the plus side for the .416 Dakota is more common bullets and a more modern case shape that should be less prone to brass flow. On the negative side, the rarity of correctly headstamped brass is a concern. On the plus side for the .404 Jeffery is, well, it's a .404 Jeffery. Also, I'm not really planning on hotrodding, so the brass flow issue might be a red herring. Factory ammo for either is sufficiently rare as to be nonexistant, so that's pretty much a tie. What should I do? analog_peninsula analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | ||
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404 J. Everybody wants one. Almost no one wants a 416 Dakota. So it will be really easy to sell your rifle (if you ever decide to) if you chamber for .404 J. Kynoch produces factory ammo for .404 J, and it is available at Connecticut Shotgun. Westley Richards also has 400 J ammo (www.westleyrichards.com). | |||
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I built my .404j on the very same rifle. Both will give you 400grs @ 2400fps. So it really comes down to what YOU want. I made my choice & am very happy w/ it.  I just wish there were a couple more .423 dia. bullets out there but there are enough.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I was faced with the same decision and chose the Dakota, for the reasons you mentioned. Reformed RUM brass allows practice and I can get "enough" Dakota brass to cover any future trips to Africa. Besides, the Jeffery belongs in a mauser. "There always seems to be a big market for making the clear, complex." | |||
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I have done both the 404 Jeffery and .416 Dakota by rebarreling of WinM70 300RUM rifles. It is a far better choice than an opened up standard M98, barring "nostalgia" issues suffered by some.  The shorter COL of the 404 Jeffery means that any .423 bullet I have found can be seated and crimped properly with room to spare. There are some .416 bullets that are too long in the nose section to fit the M70 RUM box and allow crimping on the cannelure available. Most .416 bullets will work fine with the .416 Dakota in an M70 RUM box. Can't decide? Build a switch barrel or two complete rifles. The devil made me do it. My only vice.  | |||
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404 Jeffery.....easy one..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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PM gringocazador on thisas a 404, as it is a pretty easy conversion. There are several ex$pen$ive pitfalls to this, that you will want to avoid. If you are willing to take 3 down, it's just a rebarrel, with perhaps an hours work on the feed ramp, including polishing. if you load it to classic velocities, it's a cast bullet operation for most plinking loads. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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No brainer, 404 Jeffery in every way. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Here is THE soft to use on buffalo of any kind, a .423/380gr North Fork at 2525 fps from the M70, and what it looks like when removed from the off side shoulder having broken up the humerus and scapula of a bison bull, having blown some lung out of the on side entrance hole, and having disconnected the heart from the aorta and vena cava while transiting the chest:  And then there are the flat nosed copper solids of 380 to 400 grains at 2400 to 2500 fps for elephant. Anything is possible with an M70 404 Jeffery, even this one (10" twist McGowen rifling, 24" barrel):   | |||
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Without a doubt go with a .404 J !! | |||
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.404, for all the reasons listed above. And a sad story it is for the .416 Dakota, wich must be the perfect cartridge, tecnically spoken. 2400 with 400 at lower preassures than the .416RemMag, yet without the bulk of the .416Rigby. People want classics, simple as that. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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404 j, no doubt Jeffery's .500 overall | |||
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Well, that's pretty one-sided. I guess .404J it is. Are there any traps or common conversion problems of which I should be aware? Thanks, analog_peninsula analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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404J. I want one too. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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gee guys i gotta 416 dakota & find it great. you can always make cases out of 404's by trimming, sizing and fireforming. 416 has the big advantage of finding a miramid of bullets for it. now I could really catch it if I mention that i have a matching rifle in 375 dakota as well.  | |||
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Norma comes with ammo soon for the 404 and the 450 Rigby, 500 Nitro 3 inch, 505 Gibbs aswell.The 404 ammo will have 400 grs Woodleigh bullets and i think the rest of them will have it too. | |||
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Analog Peninsula, Are you not considering the .404 Dakota? The .404 Jeff was not a SAAMI standard cartridge in the US the last time I looked (it is a CIP standard). It does have lots of nostalgia. Ruger dropped their .404 Jeff project (#1 and M77) because of ammunition incompatibilities. My personal choice is the .404 Dakota because you can get correct ammunition. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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Actually, I heard that the problem was that they bought a reamer made to a different specification than their sizing die.  I would have expected more from firearms engineers. | |||
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.416 Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro-Express Remington.  | |||
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One more vote for the 404 Dakota! | |||
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Well if Norma can make correct brass & Clymer a correct reamer, then it sounds like all someone needs to do is petition SAAMI for a change in specs. & away we go. I've had no rpoblems w/ my .404j/M70 conversion using the Clymer reamer. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Dan, I interviewed two Ruger executives who were involved in the project, and in the decision to kill it. There have been a couple of rumors floated about the ammo. One was that a maker supplied them with ammo made to an innacurate standard, and similar for the headspace data. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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J Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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I want to thank everyone who responded to my question. I really appreciate the input. analog_peninsula analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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It would not even surprise me if Ruger had no idea what went wrong and was only guessing, because if they knew what the problem was it would have been fixed quite easily. | |||
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I would go with a stainless 416 Rem mag in the Winchester.Then you can find factory ammo when the airlines loses your.The only 416 Wilcat I like is the 416 ultra mag.This is between the 416 rem mag and the 416 weatherby.It should easily do 2500 with a 400 gr bullet with a 26" barrel.The brass is alot less expensive than the weatherby or rigby.The 416 rem mag brass is a steal at $185/500 from Midway for the 416 Rem mag.You can load it for a dollar a shot with new brass and the 350 gr speer mag tip bullet. | |||
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I'ld almost bet you have a better chance finding an odd box of .404j rounds before you find .416rem, definetly before you find .416wby.  Feeding a big bore is like feeding a big V*, it isn't going to be cheap but it will be satisfying. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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You can even turn the 404 Jeffery M70 into a light weight sheep rifle with best bullet for this a GSC .423/320gr HV at an easy 2700 fps: Here is THE soft to use on buffalo of any kind, a .423/380gr North Fork at 2525 fps from the M70, and what it looks like when removed from the off side shoulder having broken up the humerus and scapula of a bison bull, having blown some lung out of the on side entrance hole, and having disconnected the heart from the aorta and vena cava while transiting the chest: And then there are the flat nosed copper solids of 380 to 400 grains at 2400 to 2500 fps for elephant. Anything is possible with an M70 404 Jeffery, even this one (10" twist McGowen rifling, 24" barrel): I am interested in the loads you are using, I have just bought a CZ custom made rifle with a 98 Mauser action, ported 25" barrel in .404 Jeffery. Haven't shot it yet but have been looking at using Woodleigh projectiles, (350 and 400 gn and ADI powder). Woodleigh quote best velocity figues for their particular projectiles which range from 1900-2400 fps so the velocities you are quoting give me a few more uses for the rifle. I bought it mainly for larger game but if I can use a lighter projectile at higher velocity it would be perfect for wild pigs. Pete. | |||
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nt, Is your rifle a Magnum Mauser, or a CZ 550 Magnum? If so, then you too can duplicate my loads with Varget Extreme, made in Australia for Hodgdon. What do you call it there? One of the ADI's? I would not recommend my favorite loads in a standard length M98 that has been opened up. They are fine in the M70 or the CZ 550 Magnum, or a Magnum Mauser, or a Dakota 76 African. These are sub-maximal loads in the right rifle (a sample from my data), all excellent, uniform, accurate: 87.6 grains of Varget with the 340 grain North Fork SP gets 2706 fps in my 24" barrel at 54 degrees F. 83 grains of Varget with the 380 grain North Fork SP gets 2528 fps, 24" barrel, 83 degrees F. 81 grains of Varget with the 400 grain Woodleigh RNSP gets 2406 fps, 24" barrel, 82 degrees F. GM215M primers by Federal. Norma Brass. My barrel is 10" twist on the M70 "homemade" and the CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic factory rifle. Both are by McGowen. I have only tried a few of the 320 grain GSC HV's in the .423/.338 Lapua. I need to try them in the .404 Jeffery. It is a better sheep bullet for the .404 Jeffery because of its short overall length. It is perfect for the .404 Jeffery. Gerard Schultz did an excellent design there for the .404 Jeffery. Start with 80 grains of Varget and the 350 grain Woodleigh and work up, with a chronograph, at your own risk. Make sure the 350 grain Woodleigh can handle the velocity, as it may be for the slower 10.75x68mm. I forget.North Forks are hard to beat in 380 grainers at 2500fps or so. I suspect the Woodleigh RNSP might turn inside out at 2400 fps, whether 350 or 400 grain, and that would be spectacular for varmints. | |||
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The rifle was built about 20 years ago and has basically resided in the guys gunsafe since. I don't really know anything about Mauser actioned rifles except that they are a strong action and the basis for a lot of fine custom guns, this particular rifle has the safety that swings rearward to lock the bolt and firing pin in the safe position and swings forward to fire. I understand that ADI ship powder to the US and package it as Hogdens (the burning rate comparisons available from adi-limited.com.au) so I can use Hogdens data with safety. Pete. | |||
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20 years old? Could it be a reworked BRNO ZKK 602? If you need help figuring out what it is, post a picture. My loads are not recommended for an opened up standard Mauser 98 action. | |||
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I have 4 404 Jeffery rifles I feed. I use sane not insane velocities for that round and have no troubles with any of my non Magnum Mauser actioned rifles when the 400 gr. bullets are flying at 2350 ft/sec. All of my rifles weigh in at about 10 lbs and recoil even at moderate velocities is pretty stiff. I had a Magnum Mauser Jeffery rifle in 404 Jeffery that weighed in at 8 lbs, 6 oz. and with my standard loading at 2350 f/sec. the recoil was better?? I, in a fit of greed/stupidity, sold it for a great profit and have tried to duplicate that rifle feel/weight/ballance ever since. I have yet to come close. A big bore rifle that weighs 8 lbs is a dream to carry long distances often associated with dangerous game hunting. The few times it does get fired in a hunting situation, one will rarely feel the recoil anyway. I tend to use the 24"barrel length but my next project will be a 1835 Chilean mauser, with a 22" cut rifle barrel I just received. I would like to make the rifle weigh about 8 lbs and stock in fine turkish walnut I bought from Adam. His stock wood seems to be pretty dense compared to the turkish I saw at the guild show and sold by the Dressels. All I need is a good pattern stock to resemble a Rigby rifle, and I will be good to go on that project. square shooter | |||
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Thanks for the information, I will post a picture as soon as I take possession of it. What do you mean by a opened up standard Mauser 98 action? | |||
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I see. The standard M98 action was designed to handle a cartridge only 3.340" long. To use it for a .375 H&H or .404 Jeffery requires it to handle COL of 3.600". That requires undercutting the bottom of the action in order to lengthen the feeding port to match the opening of a longer magazine box, and all else that this entails to load, feed, fire and eject the longer cartridge. If very much of this undercutting is done to the front of the action instead of to the rear, it will undercut the critical locking lug recess area of the action, and reduce the strength of the action, making it more prone to setback and excessive headspace. This unsafe condition will not handle higher pressure loadings, and for best survivability of the rifle and the shooter, pressures should be kept low. | |||
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It could be a BRNO ZKK 602 that I have bought, to mount a scope entails screwing the scope bases to the rounded receiver (as on a Remington M700) How does the BRNO compare to the CZ in terms of strength, reliability etc. Pete. | |||
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Well, that still doesn't add up, unless someone has milled off the integral bases of the BRNO ZKK 602. The BRNO ZKK 602 is a true magnum action of same size as the CZ 550 Magnum. The only real difference between the two is different safety and trigger mechanism. They both have true Mauser CRF and extraction with the true Mauser self locking extractor. If you have a 602, it will handle my high velocity .404 Jeffery loads just fine. It will also hold 5 down in the box like my CZ. | |||
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