I know this question has been asked untold times, but I wanted to ask it once again, framed with other answers/opinions I have found.

I am looking for the best 458 caliber cartridge for "stopping" dangerous game in a bolt action rifle. With the following parameters:

1. Brass inexpensive
2. Ammo easy to find
3. Low pressure loads
4. Reliable feeding
5. Ability to handle 550, maybe 600 gr bullets

The conclusion I have come to after reading all of this and balancing the parameters above:

458 Lott
- Inexpensive
- Can use 458 win mag in a pinch
- Maximum # of cartridges in magazine
- Con ?:Concerns by some PH's that it still doesn't have enough stopping power
- Con ?: Pressures a bit high

460 Weatherby loaded to 2,400 fps 500 grain
- Low pressure
- Moderate expense on brass
- Ability to handle up to 600 grain bullet
- Con ?: One less (at least) cartridge in the magazine

Is there something I am missing?

Thanks

Austin, I think you about have it. The 458 Win is much better today, with modern powders and bullets. The 458 Lott provides more velocity, but you can use 458 WM if needed. The 460 Wby, if you're a handloader, provides much better capabilities for using 500 and 600gr bullets; loaded to the velocity you want to balance power and recoil. Another is the 458 Ackley Improved. This is the full-length case, and 458 Win, 458 Lott and 458 Watts can be used, as the chamber is longer than the others. This brings the 458 up to 450 Rigby and 450 Dakota standards...a 500gr bullet at about 2,450 fps.

Nope, you didnt miss much. Go with the Lott. But shoot one before you buy. Recoil is really up there.

Gents:
I've got to put in my two cents here. Why not go for the .450 Watts? One of the nicest men I ever and the pleasure of meeting was James Watts and writing the book on his life. (I had 1000 copies printed and sold the last two a few weeks ago). Approximately 22 years after James developed is round ('49), Jack Lott shaved about .005" off the case and renamed it with his name. He was a well-known writer and took James' idea--which Watts had either the patent or copyright--I have all of James' paperwork somewhere in my files.

For the past 15-20 years is has been in vogue to knock the .458 Winchester but it is a fine cartridge. The Lott and the Watts do exactly the same thing. The Ackley does a bit more but brass and dies are not readily available for it. While it will never happen, I would like to see James get some credit for his work which included the .450 Watts, the .450 short (which became the .458 Win., the .45-348 (which became the .450 Alaskan), the .40-348 (this one died a long time ago), and also James necked down his .450 short to .416 and that was developed by yet another.

Upon James' passing in the mid 1990s, I bought all of his unique and first production rifles in most of the above calibers but have since sold them all when the double rifle bug bit me.

So, for what it is worth, a Watts (Lott?) will give you the most bang for your buck.
Cheers,
Cal

While exploring these options you might want to begin considering the platform as well. If you are going to shoot 550-600 gr projectiles out of a Lott or 460 weatherby, you better be prepared for some "recoil". I would suggest a +10# rifle and find one that fits you well. I have a 458 WM that weighs a tad under 8#'s with the original recoil pad (40 years old) and it is not pleasant to shoot off a bench.

EZ

I chose a .460 G&A because of the beauty of the cartridge; no silly belt, sexy shoulder, gives 2370 f/s with 500 gr bullets, feeds well etc.
In my Brno 602 I get 4 in the magazine, and one up the barrel.
The cons; making brass(I use Norma straight 404) , some fireforming..
But, hey, it's all fun actually

M

I would go with the 450 Lott.

With 500gr bullets at 2150fps, you will have ALL the velocity you need to expand your soft points, and ALL the penetration you need with your solids. And wigh a level of recoil that you can control.

IMHO of course, baised on the use of my 450 No2.

Sound advise!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I would go with the 450 Lott.

With 500gr bullets at 2150fps, you will have ALL the velocity you need to expand your soft points, and ALL the penetration you need with your solids. And wigh a level of recoil that you can control.

IMHO of course, baised on the use of my 450 No2.

You might also want to take a look at some members wilcat cartridges.

Thanks. Sounds like my original decision, 458 Lott, was the correct one. Though the 450 Ackley has me intrigued since it can chamber win, watts, and lott in a pinch.

I'm using a 1917 Enfield Action and a Mesquite Stock. Targeting 11#s without scope and ammo. My Ruger 375 H&H is 10# bare and pretty easy to handle.

I just bought a 458 Lott of Gunbroker. In the end, the advantages of relatively cheap loaded ammunition from multiple sources in both the Win Mag and Lott combined with relatively cheap reloading options sold me on this caliber. I still hope to snag a 416 Rigby some day though.

With a reloading press, I can tailor the recoil level and cartridge to whatever I'm using it for. If I ever go somewhere and loose my ammunition, while not as easy to find as something like 375H&H it's much better then some obscure cartridge.

I can always rebarrel to something else later if I find the 458 Lott just doesn't do it for me. Considering the cost of ammunition, for about ~100 rounds I can rebarrel to something else like 470 Capstick or some wildcat.

The magazine on a CZ is extra long. A Lott with banded/driving band bullets (or use of a Lee factory crimp die) in a CZ can be loaded out to 3.8". Nice option to bring down pressure or increase velocity, especially if considering 600gn bullets.

The Lott chamber has a much tighter throat than the WM.

458 lott
download it to your needs

.450 Dakota or .450 Rigby.

I'm with Dave on this--
450 Rigby.
The feeding should be smoother than the Lott and it can be safely loaded to higher velocities with less pressure. Powder is relatively cheap.
But I only own a 416 Rigby, pondering if I would ever go with a 450 Rigby or 505 Gibbbs.
The 450 would give better stopping than the 416, but if one is already using a 416, maybe a double step up is more natural.

460 G&A likely the best balanced of those mentioned.

450 Dakota or 450 Rigby if you wanted a factory round.

1. Brass inexpensive
2. Ammo easy to find
3. Low pressure loads
4. Reliable feeding
5. Ability to handle 550, maybe 600 gr bullets

I would reverse some and look at my own priorities

4. Reliable feeding
3. Low pressure loads
1. Brass inexpensive ($1 to $2+ a case for any of them)
2. Ammo easy to find (only the 458WM or the Weatherby are "easy")
5. Ability to handle 550, maybe 600 gr bullets (a Lott won't easily)

6. Recoil...

Lott and Weatherby are the two extremes I would not build on in .458. Having done the Lott I'd go back to a 458 Win Mag first.

I see no real need or advantage to going to 600 grain bullets in .458 diameter. The Lott will handle 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps. That load in a 10lb rifle generates all the recoil I want to handle. Also that load will give you all the penetration and stopping power you will ever need and in fact in some cases such as broad side shots on elephants or buffalo it will give you more penetration than you want. I have taken 5 elephants with that exact load from the Lott and in two cases the bullets were retrieved from the stomach contents after successful frontal brain shots. Truthfully, the 458 Win with 500 grain DGS bullets at a true 2,150 fps will do all you need to do on elephants and still completely penetrate on side body shots.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
460 G&A likely the best balanced of those mentioned.

I agree with your statement and wish the 460 G&A or a version of it was brought out in factory ammo form. It would be at the top of my list for a 458.

I have a Rifles Inc in 460 Guns & Ammo; a great cartridge easily formed from now available 404 Jeffery Brass. For 600gr bullets, I like the concept of the 505 Empire...a necked-up 460 Wby but loaded at low pressure to 2,150 fps. That keeps recoil down to 500 NE levels, but it can be loaded up if desired. The 450 Ackley is also a great round, and solves the "out of ammo" crisis by handling 458 WM, 458 Lott, and maybe other 375-based 45 calibers.

+1; Recent observations of mine revealed the Hornady 458 Super Performance will almost meet these criteria in a 24" barrel; I noted 2125 FPS across my chrono. If you handload; try 71.5-72 gr of 2230 behind a 500 Gr DGS (hornady). You will get 2150 FPS + in a 24" barrel.
Food for thought (No high pressure issues)

I might add that I have a CZ 550 in a Lott and it will hold 6 down in the magazine and feed all 6 flawlessly and ammo should be readily available. Another good choice if you want another 100-150 FPS out of a 500 gr bullet.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I see no real need or advantage to going to 600 grain bullets in .458 diameter. The Lott will handle 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps. That load in a 10lb rifle generates all the recoil I want to handle. Also that load will give you all the penetration and stopping power you will ever need and in fact in some cases such as broad side shots on elephants or buffalo it will give you more penetration than you want. I have taken 5 elephants with that exact load from the Lott and in two cases the bullets were retrieved from the stomach contents after successful frontal brain shots. Truthfully, the 458 Win with 500 grain DGS bullets at a true 2,150 fps will do all you need to do on elephants and still completely penetrate on side body shots.

465H&H

The 450 Rigby (yes Dakota too) would allow the handloading of 450 grain TSX bullets to 2600 and 2650 fps, maybe 2700 if one is careful. Those kinds of velocities are nice for one gun hunting, covering thick-skin and thin-skin.
Basically the 450 Rigby is a case of weatherby proportions and would allow all of the options of loads in a 460 Weatherby, but in potential 'controlled-action' feeds and in less expensive CZ models.
Anyway, if someone has an action the size of the CZ550 magnum (Rigby face), it would seem a natural to use a full-dimension, bottleneck-round .458 rather than a necked up 375.

I am a HUGE Weatherby fan BUT, since you list "inexpensive" and "ammo easy to find" as your number 1 and 2 items, the 458 Lott is really your best choice. If you cant find Lott ammo, as you mentioned and others ahve repeated - you can use 458 Winchester rounds and those are everywhere.

I have to agree with RDB on this. In hunting dangerous game, reliability is everything . The rifle must not fail to feed, no matter what. I also prefer the .450 Rigby. Norma Brass isn't that expensive and if you stay at reasonable pressures (under 2300 ft. sec.) a couple of boxes will last you a life time. There is no real need to exceed 6000 ft. pds. anyway, yanno. And when you hit a buffalo with that, he goes down. He may get back up again, but he will be stunned and wobbly and in no condition to cause you any grief. I know. I've done it.

I used a rechambered CZ in 450 Dakota to kill my Buff in Zim eighteen months ago. 500gr at 2470fps did the trick pretty easily. I hate drama when the two protagonists are me and some Cape Buffalo.

Rich
DRSS

I own the 458 Lott. With a 500gr solid I get 2362 FPS.

With the 500gr SP I get 2280 fps. With the 550gr
SP. I get 2152 fps

Since when has the 458 Lott been suspected of not being powerful enough? Are you hunting something with armor plate?

There is a tried and true formula: 500 grain projectile traveling at a minimum of 2100 feet per second will kill and penetrate anything that you could ever want to hunt.

The Lott exceeds this.

My RSM feeds every time and take a look at the real life stoping power events that Bill C lived thru this year. He used his Ruger RSM .458 Lott.

Get the 450 Dakota. Carry a loaded round in your pocket and chicks think you are seriously interested in them...

Besides, you can always download it to Lott power levels


Rich
DRSS
CZ 450 Dakota

If you are considering a wildcat, I humbly offer the 458ar. It doesbeverything th Lott can do, by simply rechambering a winmag.

Damn, Rich, two dead accurate posts by you this evening.

Allow me, please, as the resident vox clemantis in deserto, to try - again - to convert the unconvertable here on AR. Whichever .458 you choose, PLEASE try the A-Square Monolithics and Dead Tough's. They kill animals. No, really. They do.

Good hunting