When shooting with iron sights. Will taking a finer bead make the rifle shoot higher? I do want the gun to shoot higher and realize that a shorter front sight makes a rifle shoot higher. Thanks,

I'd go ahead and try shooting with a "fine" bead, but if you really want your rifle to print higher then a shorter front sight is the answer.

The way "fine bead" was defined to me long ago was to hold the tip of the bead deeper in the rear sight notch. This gives a lower point of impact. A "course bead" with a bit of daylight between the bead and the bottom of the groove gives a higher point of impact.
It's all well and good if you only have to remember the bead placement on one rifle and shoot it enough to remember. Throw in multiple rifles and bead placements and getting a shorter front sight begins to look like a better idea.

front sights are easy . adjust OPPOSITE of what direction you want to in.
Pull it down lower, and it shoots higher, so pulling it down more will result in a higher hit.

Reddy375;

I believe you'll find that by holding the front sight lower in the rear sight notch you will shoot lower as in affect you are lowering the rear sight. imagine there being a pivot point mid way between the sights and what will happen when you move the rear of the barrel up and down.

quote:

Originally posted by elk hunter:
Reddy375;

I believe you'll find that by holding the front sight lower in the rear sight notch you will shoot lower as in affect you are lowering the rear sight. imagine there being a pivot point mid way between the sights and what will happen when you move the rear of the barrel up and down.

Elk hunter is correct. By "pulling" the bead lower into the V you are essentially lengthening the front sight (by obscuring the bottom of the BEAD with the rear sight.) Or raising the rear sight. Either way of thinking about it, you will shoot lower if you "pull" the bead lower into the V.

JPK
Corrected to read BEAD, and not V.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
.. Or raising the rear sight.

JPK

Utter The 200 yard leaf on a rear sight is HIGHER than the 100 yard and the 300 yard is HIGHER than both.

Sight systems are EASY-- move the rear the way you want the bullet to go.. left, move left, right, move right, up, move up, and down, move down.

Front sights are OPPOSITE..

JPK, -- i know you just forgot.. got look at your double guns.. rear leafs get HIGHER as you raise the point of impact.

pivot this.;. pivot that..

look, lay your gun on the table, EMPTY...

Sight at a spot NORMALLY.. put a piece of tape on the wall

then use the "base" of the sight to "sight" at the same piece of tape...

then without moving the barrel, look where the bead and rear sight are pointing...

aint lower, is it?

You have just functionally LOWERED your front sight.. by using the base..

its really that easy

El Jeffeosso,
elk hunter and JPK are right.
You are confused!
Quit digging that hole.

Jeffe's right. Should I get out my crayons to demonstrate?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Jeffe's right. Should I get out my crayons to demonstrate?

Please do!
Should be good!

I figured crayon was a medium El Jeffeosso would understand.
Take this up with JPK and elk hunter.
Three of us see eye to eye.

You and jeffe agree. That makes you confused too.
I have done my best to get down to your level and failed.

Situation hopeless but not serious!

Regarding "coarse bead" and "fine bead":
Open to colloquial interpretation.
Such slang is best avoided.

"Combat Bead" and "Target Bead"
or
"Combat Hold" and "Target Hold"
or
"Combat Zero" and "Target Zero"
along with
"Hold-over" and "Hold-under"
are just clearer communication.

Yes you do have to have good eyesight and a brain for these things to work for you.

Every male child in Kentucky understands these things by the age of 8 years, or else he is deemed in need of special education.

quote:

Or raising the rear sight.

This is a typo/brain fart on my part, I was trying to quote Elk Hunter in a hurry and give him his due for getting the "shoots lower" equation correct (unlike others!), since his description is the oposite of mine (MINE: pulling the bead lower in the V = effectively raising the front post height, HIS:... = effectively lowering the rear sight.)

But no mind, if you hold the bead lower in the V you are effectively making the front blade taller (or rear sight shorter). Embarrassing as it might be, make it simple on yourselves and just look at RIP's diagrams!

Repeat after me...

HOLDING THE BEAD LOWER IN THE V = LOWER POI!

Rip, I am familiar with the terms "proud bead" = high bead, and "fine bead" = low bead. Given the three holds (I have no idea of what a regular hold is called), it covers all the bases. But as you point out, the terminology is subject to local interpretation and custom!

JPK

JPK,
I was ignoring the minor bobble of elk hunter, but you set it right.
He was first to get the main point right on this thread.

Painful as my "crayon" work may be for some of the deficient here, it does speak to their level.

In my haste I may have mixed up the X's and O's a bit on the holdover demo, but will not correct it. Ran out of crayon.

I had not heard the term "Proud Bead" but it sounds "Kentucky," or maybe "Tennessee" as in "Tennessee Elevation."
Tennessee Elevation is a lot simpler than Kentucky Windage.

Now when do you use a holdunder?
When you are shooting at a cowpoke's feet to make him dance?

Ketchup goes good with crow, eh?

Thanks guys for the clarification. Boy I kicked up a hornets nest! Didnt realize there are so many iron sight shooters still around!

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
When shooting with iron sights. Will taking a finer bead make the rifle shoot higher?

No, it will shoot lower. By taking a fine bead, you're effectively increasing the height of the front sight. In other words a fine bead is the same as a normal hold with a taller front sight, and Jeffe is exactly right:

quote:

front sights are easy . adjust OPPOSITE of what direction you want to in.

Increasing front sight height will lower POI. Decreasing front sight height will raise POI, which is exactly what Jeffe said again here:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeffeosso:
pivot this.;. pivot that..

look, lay your gun on the table, EMPTY...

Sight at a spot NORMALLY.. put a piece of tape on the wall

then use the "base" of the sight to "sight" at the same piece of tape...

then without moving the barrel, look where the bead and rear sight are pointing...

aint lower, is it?

You have just functionally LOWERED your front sight.. by using the base..

its really that easy

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
El Jeffeosso,
elk hunter and JPK are right.
You are confused!

No Ron, Jeffe said the same thing Elk Hunter did, twice, but just said it in a different way. You just didn't bother to read what he said.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

This may be an easier way to visualize it.

If you take a properly zeroed iron sighted rifle, and aim at an object [lets call it the target] with the correct sight picture and the correct sight alignment, then leaving the front sight on the target, lower the rear sight you will shoot higher.

Think about it, you are lowering the back of the gun which raises the angle of departure of the bullet.

In effect you are not changing the height of the front sight you are changing the apparent height of the rear sight. By dropping the back of the gun you are "upping" the rear sight.

This why most people shoot high under stress as they want to see the front sight and hold it higher in relation to the rear.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
pulling it down more will result in a higher hit.

400 Nitro Express,

The quote above is what Jeffeosso said. And it is opposite of reality.

It is the opposite of what Elk Hunter said.

It is the opposite of what RIP said.

And your quote, here, "No Ron, Jeffe said the same thing Elk Hunter did, twice, but just said it in a different way. You just didn't bother to read what he said.", is innaccurate.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
front sights are easy . adjust OPPOSITE of what direction you want to in.
Pull it down lower, and it shoots higher, so pulling it down more will result in a higher hit.

Jeffe confused himself then refused to admit his error.

The question was about sight picture hold, not change of parts.

Jeffe calls holding the front sight lower in the sight picture "pulling it down."
Surely he does not mean bending the front sight lower with his strong fingers or tools in order to "pull it down."


Lowering the front sight by replacing it with a lower-height sight part will make the rifle shoot higher when the sight picture is subsequently HELD normally.

If no changes are made to the original rifle sight parts,
but the bead or post (whichever was originally used) is then held lower in the sight picture, relative to the rear sight, then you have tilted the rifle barrel downward. The rifle must then shoot lower.

All the rest is similarly easily understood, but let's not get into Jeffe bending, mangling, or "pulling over" the rear sight, or maybe even bending the barrel to make sight adjustments ... unless he is working on a fixed sight six-shooter.

Confusion over this is overcome by third grade where I am from, else off to "Shooting Ballerina Conservatory and Ice Rink" with shootaway (Special Ed.).

They have shorter-length school buses that pick up those kids. We say that they are "Short Bus Riders."

Do any of our members besides shootaway ride the "Short Bus?"

Mark,
Enjoy some ketchup on your crow.

Putting words in my mouth, Ron? I didn't answer you, argue with you, nor refuse to do anything, other than not argue with you. This is my first post after you, but you put alot of stock in "jeffe refuses" this and that.

Let it go, sir, we disagree, and you are making an issue of something I've already moved beyound.

You believe yourself to be correct, great, then that makes you correct. I believe my self to be correct, and we'll have to agree to disagee.

cya

Ya'll hav\

No crow to put it on, Ron. He gave the correct answer twice. Your reading comprehension needs some work.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Reddy375's question:

"When shooting with iron sights. Will taking a finer bead make the rifle shoot higher?"

Jeffeoso's answer:

QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Pull it down lower, and it shoots higher, so pulling it down more will result in a higher hit.[/QUOTE]

Reality = a finer bead, or "pulling it down more" will result in a lower point of impact.

400, what do you not get?

He was wrong.

You are wrong.

Elk Hunter was correct.

Rip was and remains correct.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Let it go, sir, we disagree, and you are making an issue of something I've already moved beyound.

You believe yourself to be correct, great, then that makes you correct. I believe my self to be correct, and we'll have to agree to disagee.

cya

Ya'll hav\

What a bunch of absolute hog wash.

This is not a matter of who's opinion has more merit, where there is something to be said for either opinion.

The answers provided are absolute, objectively testable, and mutually exclusive.

Like "the sun rises in the East" or "no it rises in the west."

What a canard, what hog wash, and from a fellow who enjoys shoving it up others' kiesters.

JPK

As entertaining as all of the above might be, the answer is to fix the damned sight because I garan-damn-tee you that in the heat of battle you are going to forget the highbead/lowbead BS. If you are shooting too low, file the front sight, if you are shooting too high, get a taller front sight. Then you can concentrate on your target.

You shouldn't have to adjust sights for elevation.I don't think there are many that can be adjusted.If your rifle is shooting lower than it should with normal loads,try tightening the guard screws and barrel lug screw to increase POI and tighten groups.Even a cheap rifle like a CZ comes with a test target with proof of POI.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
As entertaining as all of the above might be, the answer is to fix the damned sight because I garan-damn-tee you that in the heat of battle you are going to forget the highbead/lowbead BS. If you are shooting too low, file the front sight, if you are shooting too high, get a taller front sight. Then you can concentrate on your target.

+1

Or adjust the rear sight (if possible) the opposite way - shooting low - adjust rear sight up and adjust it down if shooting too high.

And so, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west,
no matter what the petulant bully and the insolent dweeb say.
Eat crow.

Listen to blacktailer and get a new shorter sight blade, they are cheap compared to watching an animal gallop off because you held on your sight and shot under him or worse wounded and lost him.
Von Gruff.

So, you replace your front sight blade so that your bullet now shoots where you want it to with the bead nussled properly in the V.

I can only do that at two ranges, where it has climbed to meet the line of sight and again when it has fallen to meet the line of sight.

While I am a proponent of merely holding the sight picture of the bead nussled properly in the V either lower or higher on the animal to accomodate the rifle's trajectory, there are generations of shooters who prefer either a "fine bead", a "course bead", a "proud bead" or whatever description they use.

Not every animal will be shot at point blank range, as defined as the bullet never being above or below the line of sight more than one half of the height of an animal's vital zone, less your preferred margin for error. And not every animal will offer the the same size vital zone either, so that point blank range is a variable to begin with. There are grysbok on one end and then there are giraffe... There are close grysbok and there are far grysbok...

Better learn how to hold over or hold under one way or another.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
And so, the sun still rises in the east and sets in the west,
no matter what the petulant bully and the insolent dweeb say.
Eat crow.