Just a few questions I thought we could touch on, please add your opinion.

How does the 375 Ruger stack up against the new 416 Ruger. The 375 looks close on paper but that's paper I guess.
Do you think Ruger should of gone with the .423 or .458 option instead.
How much difference will the 20" Alaskan differ from the 23" African. How about muzzle-blast.

Which would you pick for yourself & why, or just buy both

Thanks

Hullo 340Wby,

1. The .375 and .416 are different. The .375 does not stack up against the .416 as a stopper. The .375 is a very versatile medium bore. The .416 is a very versatile large medium bore.

2. No. The .375 and .416 offer longe range capability and thus more usefulness in overall hunting along with bullets suitable for thin skin dangerous game and heavy non-dangerous game.

3. I estimate about 30 fps in velocity gain per inch of barrel in calibers this large.

4. Yes sir, muzzle blast will be a blast especially at the crack of dawn or last light in either. A little less in the 23".

5. I would pick the .416 and never look back! I like the ability to use a higher magnification scope for longer range but still have stopping power. The .416 has no peer in this regard. 400 gr bullet @ 2400 fps is the magic formula.

6. However, I would just buy both and simplify matters....one less thing to worry about

If forced to pick just one I would choose the 375- however I will no doubt buy a 416 as well just to see what it offers.

Buliwyf just saved me a lot of time typing.

+1 on all counts . . . with one caveat, IMO the 375 makes more sense for the hunter that doesn't venture outside North American.

The 375 makes a lot of sense even for hunters who hunt Africa. I met two Zambian hunters at SCI who are planning on using 375 Rugers due to their flexibility.

I would buy a 375 if I was in the market for one. I'm not, I already have a 375H&H.

From my perspective, the 375, whether H&H or Ruger, is a great all around choice and never a wrong choice. Fantastic versatility. With mine, I've shot everything from 15lb grysbok to 1800lb eland and performance has been perfect across that entire range, from 10yd shots to upward of 250yds. (I use just two loads, one soft and one solid.) Just can't ask for more than that. And legal for all game, including elephant.

The 416 is, in my opinion, not so versatile. It isn't a big bore, and it isn't a medium bore. It isn't a stopper that a big bore is, so says history and so say current PH's. Too much on one side and too little on the other.

So, I'd go with the 375 and if I was going to go hunting for something for which a big bore stopper was better suited - to me that is elephant, I would get the big bore stopper. In fact, that is what I have done, and my 375 is my light rifle for dangerous game safaris, just in case the big bore goes tits up or ammo missing. I use my big bore on buff, for fun, but would be entirely happy with a 375, and the 375 for everyting else.

I understand that the Ruger case provides barely sufficient shoulder for head spacing in .458", too little for a major arms or ammo maker's attorneys. Too bad. If this is the case, then I think Ruger erred in not bringing out a .423" with maybe 450gr bullets. More of a stopper than any 416 and more of a stopper than a 404J even at today's non traditional, hot 404 velocities.

I would definitely go with a 23" barrel. You can shorten them cheaply and easily, but you can't make 'em grow.

JPK

Sort of related question (sorry to hijack the thread). Has anyone handloaded the .375 ruger and got the same velocities as the factory ammo? I.E. does the factory stuff use powders that are available off the shelf?

Since I own a 375 H&H, I wish that Ruger would have went to the .423 instead of the .416 bore. The 416 Ruger competes against the 416 Magnum, while a 423 bore would have competed realistically with only the 404 Jeffery without requiring a stretched magnum length action.

I wish the 416 Ruger was a 411 Ruger .. But since it isn,t 416 will do ... If I didn,t have a 9.3x64 that I prefer to the 375 Ruger .I would get another 375 Ruger .may anyway .... But the 416 Ruger is pretty close to my perfect ideal .... Wish they put a barrel mounted sling stud on it , and 3 leaf express sights . but as is it will do perfectly for my needs ...., It just eliminates the need to buy a rifle that needs to go to the smith to get fixed before it can be worked ...... I will try a Boyds JRS stock on it as I like they fit me . but thats personal and the rifle will work fine as is ...

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
From my perspective, the 375, whether H&H or Ruger, is a great all around choice and never a wrong choice. Fantastic versatility. The 416 is, in my opinion, not so versatile. It isn't a big bore, and it isn't a medium bore. It isn't a stopper that a big bore is, so says history and so say current PH's. Too much on one side and too little on the other.
JPK

+1
Very well put, John

quote:

Originally posted by Copidosoma:
Sort of related question (sorry to hijack the thread). Has anyone handloaded the .375 ruger and got the same velocities as the factory ammo? I.E. does the factory stuff use powders that are available off the shelf?

Yes, check Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center. Here's the link: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
Jim

At the prices of the Ruger Alaskans, why settle on one or the other? Just buy both like I did...then there are no regrets. The best of both worlds. BTW, I also have a Winchester 70 Safari Classic in 375 H&H and a MGA "ultra light weight" in 375 H&H...can't have too many 375's.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
From my perspective, the 375, whether H&H or Ruger, is a great all around choice and never a wrong choice. Fantastic versatility. The 416 is, in my opinion, not so versatile. It isn't a big bore, and it isn't a medium bore. It isn't a stopper that a big bore is, so says history and so say current PH's. Too much on one side and too little on the other.
JPK

+1
Very well put, John

.

The 416 stops bears well .....Good enough for me ....

The reference was to elephants, which is clear in my original post, the relevant part of which is below:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
It isn't a big bore, and it isn't a medium bore. It isn't a stopper that a big bore is, so says history and so say current PH's. Too much on one side and too little on the other.

So, I'd go with the 375 and if I was going to go hunting for something for which a big bore stopper was better suited - to me that is elephant, I would get the big bore stopper.

JPK

I don't think anyone would argue that a 375 or even a 338wm isn't a bear stopper.

Not that bigger isn't a better bear stopper, just as, for elephants, a 500 is better than a 450 and a 577 is better than a 500...

JPK

Actually there are quite a few experienced Alaskan bear guides, me included, who will argue that the 338 and 375 do not qualify as proper - reliable stopping round for big brown bears --- but that is a discussion for another forum.

458,

OK, so, since we're are discussing the 375 vs. the 416, tell us what is your take and those of others you refer to. (I think in your case it might be all too obvious!) Do you and the others you refer to believe it start at the 416's with the big bears like PH's generally believe it starts at the 450 for elephants, or bigger?

Please use the definition of stopping rifles as rifles likely, but not infalibly able, to stop a charge with one non fatal or one not instantly fatal or istantly disabling shot, as it has been defined by history in Africa. Alternatively, please provide your own definition for comparison.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Actually there are quite a few experienced Alaskan bear guides, me included, who will argue that the 338 and 375 do not qualify as proper - reliable stopping round for big brown bears --- but that is a discussion for another forum.

Now, THAT is an interesting comment and, I would add, another experienced AK guide, Ed Stevenson, once wrote an article in which he told about being harassed by two Brownies and he shot them both with his .458 Lott. He very bluntly stated that, he DID NOT think that his .338WM WOULD have stopped these bears in time, IIRC.

I tend to take both of these gentlemen's comments on this as VERY sound advice.

I an easily name at least half a dozen experienced Alaskan guides, three with scars from maulings, who share my feelings about needing calibers of at least 416 ( with larger being preferable) for stopping large wounded bears at spitting distances.
It has been done hundreds of times with smaller rounds, as true "stopping power" is simply a result of placing a stout bullet IN THE CORRECT PLACE, but larger, heavier bullets typically result in a more impressive manner - especially if your shot is less than perfect.

The difference between the 375 and the 416 is virtually identical to the difference between the 416 and the 458 (ie an extra .041 or .042 inch diameter and an extra 100 grains of bullet weight with a reduction in velocity of 200-250fps)

I have discovered no magical calibers, bullets or velocity levels but have certainly been able to see a difference in stopping abilities and when my skin is on the line I'll take my 458. While everyone else is free to use what ever caliber they have faith in.

458,

You wrote:

quote:

It has been done hundreds of times with smaller rounds, as true "stopping power" is simply a result of placing a stout bullet IN THE CORRECT PLACE, but larger, heavier bullets typically result in a more impressive manner - especially if your shot is less than perfect.

This would be different that "stopping power" as defined in African use. Regarding the African version, I think the common meaning is stopping a charging elephant, or maybe a buff, with a non fatal shot that also misses the spine, typically a missed brain shot.

Is there such an equivelent with the big bears?

History has shown the 450/458wm (my personal favorite as well) is the low end of semi reliable stopping rifles. Its been done with lesser cartridges, but apparently the % of turned charges plumets below .458" and 480 or 500grs at ~2100fps.

I've turned two elephant charges with missed brain shots with the 458wm. We weren't hunting either elephant.

If circumstances allow a well placed shot, a 30-06 or even a 7.62x39 will brain an elephant. But circumstances do not always present an opportunity for a decent % shot, and don't lend themselves to the best shooting even then.

How about bears?

BTW, I don't think the differences in diameter between the 375, 416 and 458, or even the 100gr weight increments, tell the whole story between the differences in results. Recall that frontal area is a function of the squared radius, so frontal area grows a heck of a lot faster than diameter.

JPK

stopping power is stopping power....this is no African version. Many, many successful and still alive PH's attest to that fact. The .416 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps does just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
stopping power is stopping power....this is no African version. Many, many successful and still alive PH's attest to that fact. The .416 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps does just fine.

What you say just isn't true on several fronts.

First regarding stopping power. African stopping power is and has always been about stopping elephants. An elephant is just huge, but elephants can be turned from a determined charge with a big enough bullet even if hit with a non fatal, non disabling shot. That is African stopping power. And it is the realm of big bore rifles.

Further, concensus is, and has been for a century, that stopping rifles begin at 450NE performance level. Current PH's who hunt elephants more than occasionally are, for the most part, ardent members of that concensus. Surely all that I know.

If you want a good and recent example of Ph consensus, take a look at this thread on the African Hunting board for PH's Rifles. The thread there about a week ago listed PH's rifles. The great, great majority are .458"+. Many double rifles as well.

Or try this:
"The survey of PH's in Boddington's new book states the following PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

..."

Medium bores, ( 375's, like Saeed's) = 10
Large medium bores, (408-425) = 17
Big bores, (.458" plus) = 75

Ph's who responded to Bodington."

Another example can be found (at least used to be found) at African Hunter's website. Zimbabwe's Parks Departments records from, iirc, circa ten or fifteen years ago indicate that in reported elephant charges faced by citizen hunters resulting in a shooting, 100% of hunters using 375's were killed or seriously injured, and chances for escaping serious injury or death didn't rise to greater than 50% until the cartridge reached .458" and velocities those achieved by the 450NE performance level. Perhaps not the most talented subset of hunters, but that actually greater supports the consensus.

Or make fact checking easy and watch Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant" and count how many times he recites the refrain, "If the hunter had been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet, the elephant would have dropped..." Buzz has used the 416 Rigby for some time, but is or has moved to the 450NE. Ian Nychens is interviewed in the DVD by Buzz as well, his idea of a proper thick bush elephant rifle that can stop a charge? 450NE No2. Sven Cedegren, also interviewed, gives the 500NE the nod, especially for thick bush.

For an older but still very relevant source, try reading John Taylor's books. Pay attention when he describes rifles for thick bush, which is where much of today's elephant hunting takes place. And take head in Taylor's favorite rifles, 450NE No2, 500/465NE.

And, of course, there is over one hundred years of history...

Note how I repeat the "in thick bush" citation from Nychens, Cedegren and Taylor? That is because when you are in thick bush you may not see the elephant until it is but a few paces away and coming fast. An elephant head is huge, its brain, in frontal aspect, five or six inches around. And it is from a foot to more than four feet behind the point of impact. Even relatively small movements of an elephants head mean great relative motion for the point of impact required to reach the brain. That is one significant reason the the opportunity for a brain shot may not exist or may be so fleeting that it is impossible to take. And that is why the consensous stopping rifles are .458"+, 480grs+, 2100fps+.

As ther is a concensus minumum "relibale" stopping cartridge for elephants, proved out over a century, so there is one for men, proven out by reams of data and statistic kept on law enforcement shooting, and and so I wonder if there is a consensus minimum for the great bears, and what it is.

JPK

I have never heard of a recommended "minimum" for stopping bears as such and have spent most of my life working in Grizzly country here in BC. I have only witnessed about a dozen Grizzly kills during that time, some 53 years since my first encounter and have known guys who have killed over 50 Grizzlies in their lives, using rifles such as the .30-06. Working bush people tended to use what they could afford/obtain and simply coped with the realities of life in Grizzly territory.

However, I think that Phil Shoemaker's opinions are the "gold standard" where this is concerned and carry rifles/loads identical to his, developed on my own, for "protection" where I feel this is needed. I have a purpose-built .375H&H "Grizzly" rifle on a P-64 action with sts. tube, Recknagels, Leupy 2.5CHD, Micky stock and 300 NPs, it has a 20" tube and is what I am used to carrying. However, I am having a Browning FN-LE Safari customized and I WOULD pack this if back on the BC-AK border where the bears are very numerous and much larger than in the SE of BC, where I mainly hunt.

I am not particularly afraid of Grizzlies, it's avalanches that scare me when bushwhacking, BUT, I see EVERY reason to LISTEN to a guy like Phil and NO reason to argue with his genuine expertise. I remember a certain VERY famous gunwriter who took a few sneering and infantile potshots in writing at Phil concerning his choice of rifles some years back; I simply laughed at the presumption of this guy, who, for all his gun knowledge and huge ego from playing a pistol game, was and is, essentially a "dude" and seldom read his work thereafter.

Grizzlies move with a speed that simply astonishes you the first time you see it and even very experienced pros have and do get mauled and even killed, so, I prefer to use what a real pro suggests and then practice with it so my elderly azz remains in one piece....bigger IS better, IMHO.

both --
though the muzzle flash and reduced velocity estimates are probably wrong.

my experience with the ARs (same shape, within 2% of case) that that 21" and 23" and 25" are more like 10-15 fps per inch.

muzzle blast, with h335, is nil, far less than 223/308... for all 4 of the AR rounds.. i can't imagine they being much for the slightly smaller rugers

this is due to mechanical advantage of the case shape and quick powders

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I am not particularly afraid of Grizzlies, it's avalanches that scare me when bushwhacking, BUT, I see EVERY reason to LISTEN to a guy like Phil and NO reason to argue with his genuine expertise. I remember a certain VERY famous gunwriter who took a few sneering and infantile potshots in writing at Phil concerning his choice of rifles some years back; I simply laughed at the presumption of this guy, who, for all his gun knowledge and huge ego from playing a pistol game, was and is, essentially a "dude" and seldom read his work thereafter.

Grizzlies move with a speed that simply astonishes you the first time you see it and even very experienced pros have and do get mauled and even killed, so, I prefer to use what a real pro suggests and then practice with it so my elderly azz remains in one piece....bigger IS better, IMHO.

Dewey,

I'm not trying to argue with Phil, just trying to find out what his and other guides take is on stopping a grizly or brown bear, and why.

As mentioned, stopping an elephant is very possible with enough rifle, even when a brain shot is missed or not available. As a counter foil, buff are notoriuosly hard to turn without braining or spining them, no matter the cartridge used.

I do believe that, within reason, bugger is better. Bigger hole, more circumference, more total area/volume damaged = faster bleed out if nothing else.

So the question comes sort of down to, "Does Phil use the bigger rifles because of faster bleed out or because an bear can be turned, similar to an elephant." And, "If so, where is the line when it becomes more likely vs less likely," if there is a distinct line.

I have never hunted a grizzly or brown bear. Just trying to understand Phil's and those he refers to thinking.

I have seen a video of a grizzly stalking, charging and overtaking a horse and killing it. The speed differential was maybe 2 to 1. That makes a grizzly fast as hell. A good bit quicker and faster than elephants, I believe, which top out at ~35mph and accelerate very quickly. The bears and elephants both seems to frequent very dense bush too, which makes some shooting very challenging - bringing up the "Where's the stopping rifle line?" question since my assumption was apparently in error.

Since I have read so many times that the 338wm or 375H&H are highly recommended for the great bears, and relied on by bear guides, etc, and that even the relativley light 30-06 and 300wm are sufficient if thats what you own, I assumed that the "gold standard you refer to was the 338wm and 375H&H. But now informed that a judicious choice is more rifle, I still wonder why I erred and hope Phil will explain.

A question: What cartridge for your FN Browning? I'm getting the feeling that it is 458wm.

JPK

Hopefully the 416 Ruger takes off as a big bore.The 416 Rem mag and 416 Rigby are suffering from high price ammo and few guns made.When you can buy a 416 for $800 and ammo for $52 the 416 Ruger is the ticket.The 416 bullets are alot better for the big stuff than the .375.The 458 caliber or 470 is better if your a professional elephant hunter or buffalo hunter.The 416 is alot more versital than the 458 or 470 calibers.The recoil of the 416 is way less than the 470s.I can shoot my 416 Rem mags which weigh 8.5 pounds with the scope 125 times .I could only shoot the 470 capstick that weighed 10 pounds 3 times and it was no fun.I hope the 416 Ruger sells good.I know it will in Alaska as long as you can get the ammo.Its nuts when the 416 Rem mag ammo is $130-150 a box and the rigby is way more.There is no reason it should be over $75.This will help the 416 ruger alot in the ecomic times especially.I really like the 416 caliber.I have 6 416 Rem mags and i will probally get a stainless 416 ruger.My 416 rem mag model 700 stainles list for $2400 the 416 Ruger stainless is going for $800 .Which do you think will sell more these days.

I was also wondering if there is enough case left to neck it to .458 Ruger? Surely someone has tried by now.

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
I was also wondering if there is enough case left to neck it to .458 Ruger? Surely someone has tried by now.

no, its not COMMERICALLY viable to do it.
(nominal .532, but really .528 base)
.528 -.458= .070,
-.034 for neck thickness
=.036
-.01 for MINIMUM taper
.026
means .013 to headspace off.

Whether or not the 416 was the right choice...I'm still happy Ruger went ahead and brought out both the 375 and 416. Maybe it will bring some more development in the larger bores rather then a 2342353546th .308 caliber. Seems there is a new 30 cal of some sort every other year.

Now as for choosing...they're cheap enough you don't have to choose! Get a 416 Alaskan, and 375 African

Point of Information...I developed a ".416 Newton" that shows itself in Larry Wales new Newton Book. I brought an empty case to SCI &
showed it to Mitch at the Hornady Booth (Mitch is Hornady's Brass Honcho)...we compared them..my .416 Newton to the new .416 Ruger.
Mitch commented "They're the same!"..almost.
The case of the .416 Ruger is a tad longer, shoulder further forward. More case capacity. But you may not use it.
I get the same power as the .416 Rigby factory load of 2400 fps with a 400 gr. bullet, more if I want it.
But the .416 Newton is much shorter, about 2.5" caselength, .30-06 case length.
It developed from a friend of mine & myself competeing to have all the Newton cartridges...he made a .400 Newton & I went one up to
a .416 Newton.
I got after Marc Jamison to make new Newton brass...as the newton big case is great for any wildcats. He made .256 Newton brass but
as far as I know, never got to the .30 & .35 Newton brass. If he did the .35 Newton necked up to .416 is a .416 Newton.
It compares favorably with the new .416 Ruger, and is quite similar to the .416 Taylor, a bit better & no belt.
Its advantages are: a short fat, fast cycling cartridge that will fit in .30-06 length actions with all the power of a .416.
And yes, as its been said a .375 will do a job, but the .416 is a measurable difference in power on dangerous game.
Best Regards,

Tom from Cody

ps. I was going to take the .416 Newton to Africa this past June, but I wanted better iron sights on it so didn't bring it..but will in
2010.

Tom

My 1965 Browning IS in .458WM. and I am loading 400 and 450 SAFs over AA2230 with very encouraging results so far. Someone put a muzzlebreak on this rifle, so, I am going to have it cut to 23", replace the factory irons with Recknagels and a Duane Weibe 4+1 mag. I will then put it into a Micky stock and that should be as good a "stopper" as I will ever want. I would not cut up an original Browning, but, this is not, which is why I bought it for $900.00 CDN.

I see that CZ is bringing out the .416 Ruger in the standard 550 action and I just got an AHR styled Micky handle for one of these. If, I can find the correct 3-pos. wing safety, I will build up one of these, as well and think that this is a hell of a round for anywhere that large Grizzlies are found.

I never go hunting in northern BC without at least one of my .338WM. rifles, loaded with 250NPs; I am a conservative, cautious and experienced old guy and have every intention of surviving any unpleasant encounters while backpacking meat.

apparently a .375 will turn even a huge bear. Maybe not every time though.

http://www.huntingreport.com/v...ies_details.cfm?id=6

Read somewhere that the hunter used a .375 not sure exactly which though. Turned a charging bear but certainly didn't drop him in his tracks.

Like all chambering choices, depends on what you're hunting and what you're comfortable shooting well.

After owning two .375 H&H's, on .376 Steyr, a .376/.416 Steyr Improved, and a .416 Rigby I'd probably choose the .416 Ruger if it was the only larger rifle I would acquire.

Both would be good

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
My 1965 Browning IS in .458WM. and I am loading 400 and 450 SAFs over AA2230 with very encouraging results so far. Someone put a muzzlebreak on this rifle, so, I am going to have it cut to 23", replace the factory irons with Recknagels and a Duane Weibe 4+1 mag. I will then put it into a Micky stock and that should be as good a "stopper" as I will ever want.

I like AA 2230 alot for 500 grainers and some 450 grainers.

You might want to try H 4895 for the 400's and it works well for some 450's as well. I find it burns cleaner than AA 2230 for some 450's.

I run 450 grainers at a very modest 2225fps.

500's at 2145fps with AA 2230.

I've found H 4895 and AA 2230 temprature insensative, but I was testing from a low of about 45* F to a high of 105* F, not the low temps you must endure.

Your rifle sounds like a great choice and 23" plenty long enough for the 458wm.

Good luck with it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by Copidosoma:
Sort of related question (sorry to hijack the thread). Has anyone handloaded the .375 ruger and got the same velocities as the factory ammo? I.E. does the factory stuff use powders that are available off the shelf?

Yes, check Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center. Here's the link: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
Jim

Better check those numbers again. The MAX loads are close to duplicating the factory velocities, the starting loads are not even close.

While a couple of the MAXIMUM velocities listed for the 300g loads come fairly close to the factory numbers (would need to be chrono'd and checked of course) however the 270g MAX loads only come close to the factory numbers. The 270g starting loads are way under the factory numbers.

My experience has been depending on the rifle, the loading manual published specs are only a loose "guide" to what one can expect from a recipe. Published data tends to be optimistic, unless these particular numbers were developed in an actual Ruger rifle with the correct barrel length and not a test barrel.

So it is as I read in a mag a while back. These RCM loads will probably not be able to be duplicated by the typical reloader because Hornady uses a proprietary powder that is not commercially available.

So to answer the question,

quote:

Originally posted by Copidosoma:
...does the factory stuff use powders that are available off the shelf?

no they don't use off the shelf powder.

When they first started wildcatting the 375 Ruger, this was the article which caught my eye. I really wanted to get one of these if Ruger built it.

Now I have one, and am just waiting for the dies, to figure out all the possibilities.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com...ng_200806/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
My 1965 Browning IS in .458WM. and I am loading 400 and 450 SAFs over AA2230 with very encouraging results so far. Someone put a muzzlebreak on this rifle, so, I am going to have it cut to 23", replace the factory irons with Recknagels and a Duane Weibe 4+1 mag. I will then put it into a Micky stock and that should be as good a "stopper" as I will ever want.

I like AA 2230 alot for 500 grainers and some 450 grainers.

You might want to try H 4895 for the 400's and it works well for some 450's as well. I find it burns cleaner than AA 2230 for some 450's.

I run 450 grainers at a very modest 2225fps.

500's at 2145fps with AA 2230.

I've found H 4895 and AA 2230 temprature insensative, but I was testing from a low of about 45* F to a high of 105* F, not the low temps you must endure.

Your rifle sounds like a great choice and 23" plenty long enough for the 458wm.

Good luck with it.

JPK

So far, I am using H-322 with 400s with excellent results and, as this is my prefered powder for my two customized .45-70 lever guns, using 400gr. slugs, I will likely stay with it and buy in bulk.

I am not one who enjoys reloading much, currently have 28 centerfire biggame rifles plus several other cf. rifles and this means that I find it more efficient to carefully develop a serious hunting and practice load for each, buy conponents in bulk and load lots of ammo, then ration the premium stuff for actual hunting.

Canadian conponent prices are just obscene and likely to get worse, so, one has to economize where possible. A box of 50 .375-300 NPs, for example costs OVER $80.00 here, taxes in and thus one tends to avoid "target practice" with them.......

I really like the Swift A-Frames in these bigger bores and hope to obtain 2-3 boxes more of the 450s for my .458WM, maybe the "best" Grizzly buster yet developed and one much more popular here than many realize. Whenever a Browning Safari or Whitworth comes up for sale, it seldom lasts long and some bushworker buys it, cuts the tube to 20" or so and is happy with his new "protector".

I am VERY eager to see the CZ-550 in the .416 Ruger as this is my idea of a "perfect" combo for many of my "needs"....and I kinda NEED another rifle.......

I bought H322 to try maybe four years ago, still have it and haven't gotten around to trying it because I've been happy with either H4895 or mostly AA 2230. Maybe next time I'll give it a go.

Some powders to pass on if you were to get an itch to try something different: IMR 3031 - temperature sensative as all get out and low velocity for pressure; Varget - very dirty and trouble with consistency, too bulky.

I am in the same camp regarding reloading. It is a job that needs to be done for certain rifles. For rifles that don't require it, I don't reload. For example, there are so many factory options from relatively cheap reman bulk ammo to top of the line premium stuff for the 30-06 that I just don't reload for it. At the other extreme is the 458wm, which about screams for it since factory ammo is expensive as heck, limited in selection and loaded well under potential.

Everyone "needs" another rifle!

JPK

I also have a bunch of H-4198 and that is a good choice for my cast bullet loads, but, I will concentrate on the H-322 when it is used up. The simpler, the better, where loading is concerned, IMO.

I gave up on all IMR powders over the past ten years due to the temp. issue; I shoot in temps. from the 90sF to sometimes below zero and found some problems in this regard. I now use Hodgedon's, Alliant and Ramshot powders and am happy with those, Vitavourhi is too pricey and it's supply here too inconsistent for my taste.

I agree on the '06., I lucked into about 700 180 NPs at a huge discount some years ago and since I seldom use my rifles so chambered, I loaded them all in new brass, divied them up and that is that. I would just use Fed.HE ammmo if I had not found these.

For my P-64 Mod. 70 original, now in a Rimrock stock, I am not bothering to load, either. I will just buy some Fed.-300 NP ammo and call it good as I seldom shoot this one, either. I do laod for my custom Grizzly .375H&H and have now got enough ammo. for my uses for my remaining bush time.

My impression is that with "Hussein" as POTUS and the terrorism and wars resultant from that, as well as over-population and resource competition, we should stock up for our major hunting guns and be dammed glad we still can. I see shortages of the "WWII" type coming if this tragic situation continues and it seems to me that we are in for another "Thirty Years War", in that respect, so, the outlook is not very encouraging where we sporting shooters are concerned.....

Sad, tho', much of the hunting here in B.C. is BETTER than it was 30 years or so ago.