Hello all, I'm new to these forums but not new to guns. Am mainly a doubles guy but also enjoy Bolt Guns.

Regarding the Interarms Whitworth Express rifles, there seems to be some belief that they were all put together in England. This is mainly due to the fact that "Manchester England" is usually impressed into the the outside of the left receiver rail.
Some Whitworth Express rifles also display a stamping which appears to be a crown, or a star, over the letter "V". I have read claims that this crown or star over V is actually a British Proof Mark, and that it authenticates the barreled action as being assembled, and proofed in the UK.
This is not correct.
Firstly, while the Brits used to include a Crown over V as PART of the proof mark stampings, this ceased in 1955 when new proof rules were introduced.
The Interarms Whitworth Express rifles were introduced around the mid 1970's, long after the Crown over V mark was abandoned.
Secondly, if an action has been barreled in the UK, it should carry a FULL SET of British Proof Marks relative to the era in which the proofing was done.
Therefore any Interarms Whitworth Express barreled actions which were actually assembled and proofed in the UK, should show a full set of proofs which were current through the 1970's and 80's.
What do these proof marks look like?
To start with there will be a Proof House stamping on both the barrel and the action, which clearly indicates which house did the proofing.
I believe most of these British assembled Whitworth Expresses were proofed at Birminham, not London.
So, the barrel and the action should be stamped with a CROWN over BNP, the Birmingham Mark.
Somewhere on the barrel as part of the compulsary marks there also needs to be stamped, the cartridge designation, the length of the case in inches, and the pressure in "TONS per [] ", meaning Tons per Square Inch.
Looking at another British rifle in my safe which was proofed in the same era, (not a Whitworth), it reads...
30/06 2.494" 18 TONS per []".
The Whitworth Express Rifles being mostly .375 H&H Mag and .458 Win Mag would need to have the appropriate cartridge chambering, case length and pressure for those cartridges.
I have an early example of a Whitworth Express in .458WM. The crown over BNP is easily visible on the left side of both the barrel and action, while the metal is in the wood.
To find the rest of the proofs however, it is necessary to remove the barreled action from the stock.
The other relevant proofs are stamped on the under side of the chamber section of the barrel.
So then, if you have a Whitworth Express, and would like to determine if the barreled action was really put together in Britian, just check to see if it has those correct proof marks.
Note that there are usually other stampings on the barrel and action, but we are not concerned with those in this decription.

The Crown or Star over V?. On these rifles, it has nothing do do with the correct marks needed to show that the barreled action was assembled in the UK.
As Ihave mentioned years ago elswhere on the net,
the proof is in the proofs!
Without a full set of correct proofmarks it would be doubtfull that the Whitworth was ever put together in Britian.

Hope this might be of some interest to someone someday.
Cheers
Oops! probably should have posted this in the Big Bores forum, sorry.

This has been discussed more than once, in the Big Bores area, including reference to the posting on NitroExpress.Com with regard to the proof marks.

If I get a chance I will dig out the threads.

Edit: Here is one thread -- Whitworth Evaluation Tips that mentions your thread on the other board.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
This has been discussed more than once, in the Big Bores area, including reference to the posting on NitroExpress.Com with regard to the proof marks.

If I get a chance I will dig out the threads.

Edit: Here is one thread -- Whitworth Evaluation Tips that mentions your thread on the other board.

Charles, thanks for that. I didn't realise that there was a link to that thread.

I believe it has come up in other threads as well, would have to do a different search to find it.

An interesting read and some great photos.
I see 400NE has brought up the very relevant point that the (Birmingham) proofmarks could be fake, meaning that none of the Whitworths were put together in the UK.
There is always a chance of that for sure.
It would have been a very bold move on someones part I would think however.
It would be nice to check the records at the Birmingham proof house to see if any Whitworths were ever actually done there.

Birmingham Proof

most zavasta actioned whitworth rifles never saw england

100% of those actions were not made in england, and the barrels would have the NEM proof on them - not english made

i BELIEVE 100$ of the barrels were also NEM

if they ever saw the english shore, they would, by law, have to be prooved for internal sale

its is MY belief that the whitworth name was merely roll stamped on a contract specification built rifle ... not all that much different than remington or charles daly putting their names on the self same actions and barrels ...

I agree that none of the actions would have been made in England.

The early Whitworths (like mine) with the British proofs didn't have the rolled logo.
The logo appeared sometime later, I'm not sure exactly when.
The early models had nothing on the top of the receiver, but instead had "Whitworth Express Rifle" engraved or etched into the left action rail.

This is probably a dumb questions but I know nothing about the Whitworth rifles. Are they Mauser actions with CRF?

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
This is probably a dumb questions but I know nothing about the Whitworth rifles. Are they Mauser actions with CRF?

Yes, it is a commercial Mauser action based on the FN Supreme design but made in Eastern Europe.

Not FN fit and finish although they can turn out nice.

Baised on this information, it would lead one to believe that the only "Whitworths" that are English proofed were ones that were sent to England for retail sales there, or bought by a British "Imorter, Exporter", for out of country sales.

OR they might have sent all of the early production to England to get their proof marks.

And/or maybe some of the early rifles were actually barreled in England.

Once upon a time I had a Whitworth in 375 and 458.
I do not recall seeing any British proof marks on them. I am not the expert 400 Nitro is on them, but I do know what they look like.

Interarms also sold a rifle called the "Alaskan", I do not think they were made in Alaska either.

Sorry could not resist.

Here is a Whitworth in 300 win that I had. Looks like proof marks on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Baised on this information, it would lead one to believe that the only "Whitworths" that are English proofed were ones that were sent to England for retail sales there, or bought by a British "Imorter, Exporter", for out of country sales.

OR they might have sent all of the early production to England to get their proof marks.

And/or maybe some of the early rifles were actually barreled in England.

Tony,
Those are all valid points that you have made.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
most zavasta actioned whitworth rifles never saw england

100% of those actions were not made in england, and the barrels would have the NEM proof on them - not english made

i BELIEVE 100$ of the barrels were also NEM

if they ever saw the english shore, they would, by law, have to be prooved for internal sale

its is MY belief that the whitworth name was merely roll stamped on a contract specification built rifle ... not all that much different than remington or charles daly putting their names on the self same actions and barrels ...

I believe that the "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" wording was dropped when the new proof rules came into effect in 1955.

i don't have my proof mark book at hand... iirc, when the dropped "not english made/make" it was replaces with NEM circled ... i could be wrong, though this sticks in my memory

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
most zavasta actioned whitworth rifles never saw england

100% of those actions were not made in england, and the barrels would have the NEM proof on them - not english made

i BELIEVE 100$ of the barrels were also NEM

if they ever saw the english shore, they would, by law, have to be prooved for internal sale

its is MY belief that the whitworth name was merely roll stamped on a contract specification built rifle ... not all that much different than remington or charles daly putting their names on the self same actions and barrels ...

Jeff,
I tend to agree that most of the Whitworths never made it to the UK.
However I do think that the early production Whitworth Express rifles did actually have some work done in England.
These would be the ones which feature the proper Birmingham proof marks.
Of course these proofmarks could be fake, but I doubt this. For the companies involved, there would be little or nothing to gain, but there would have been a hell of a lot to lose by faking proof marks.
I agree that most likely the barrels were not made in the UK either.
My early Birmingham proofed Whitworth has the words "Whitworth Rifle Company Manchester England" roll stamped on the barrel topside.
To the proof house this would suggest an English made barrel and would not require any "Not English Make" markings.
I doubt the proof house would waste any time checking to see if the barrel had actually been made in England.
It is my opinion that, like the Zastava action, the barrels were also made in Europe, despite the Whitworth stamping on the barrel.
I think that barreled actions were imported into the UK from Europe, and that they were "finished" in the UK and then proofed at Birmingham.
I'm not sure of what the actual "finishing" work was, but could have included fitting of the rear island sight, the ramp foresight and the sling eye band. On the early models these are soldered/ brazed to the barrel, unlike later models which are attached with screws.
Finishing may also have included the stock fitting.
This is just my opinion.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Birmingham Proof House should be able to confirm or deny whether any of these early Interarms Whitworth Express rifles were ever actually proofed there during the 1970's.

Good Looking Rifle! ...and the "proofs in the pudding"! (Sorry,I just had to)