Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply |
One of Us |
Went to a gun show today and picked up a Whitworth Express in 375H&H for $850. I didn't realize how nice these rifles really were. I've read about them, but until today, never held one. For that price, it has an amazing amount of bells and whistles in a 'safari' style rifle like: High polish blue throughout. Ramped hooded front sight. Barrel banded front swivel. 1/4 rib with 100(fixed) and 200 & 300 yd. leaves that fold down flat. Black forend tip. Wrap around forend checkering. Shadowline cheekpiece. Mauser CRF action. Cross bolt on front action ring. Inside trigger guard bow magazine release. Metal gripcap. Whitworth buttpad. Made in England with English style slim stock. Came with Uncle Mike's sling swivels and a Trader Keith type canvas/leather sling. That's a hell of lot of rifle for that price. I'm impressed. Feeds slick and as fast as I can run the bolt. Barrel was like a mirror when I checked it at the show with a bore light. Muzzle crown is flawless. Metal work is 100% and wood is about 95%. The stock is a dark walnut with some figure to it. Weighs about 9.5 lbs., which is heavier than I prefer, but it balances so nicely, it feels 'lighter'. Has a 24" barrel. Holds (3) down and (1) in the chamber. I can't believe these rifles sell for this amount of money!!! If you ever run across one, I would highly recommend you pick it up. I should reveal however, that I have not shot it yet, so.... I will report back when I fire it at the range. Good gun show day. Edited 2/18/18: the rifle has an island sight, not a 1/4 rib. | ||
|
One of Us |
I knew a deputy that got a 375 Whitworth about 30 years ago. He liked it quite a lot, because as you say, it is a very nice rifle. I wouldn't worry about the 9.5 pounds, the first time you fire a full load 300 grain bullet out of it, you'll appreciate every ounce. | |||
|
One of Us |
I love mine. Actually not unpleasant to shoot. Very accurate as well. Dave In 100 years who of us will care? An armed society is a polite society! Just because they say you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you. | |||
|
One of Us |
I agree, to me they "feel" lighter than they are. I have had a few, and still have a couple in 375 H&H (purchased for projects) and a hybrid Alaskan / Whitworth in 458 Winchester. One of the prior 375's was a very accurate rifle with Remington factory 300 grain Swift A-Frames. The ones I have now, I have not fired. Based on past experiences, I bet they shoot fine. I think they are a solid rifle. Some of the older ones with the floor plate release inside the trigger bow, had attractive stocks. | |||
|
One of Us |
It was made in Yugoslavia. Unless it has British Proof marks on it, it never made it to England. The side of the receiver has Manchester, England/ Alexandria, Virginia, but noone ever claims it is a US made rifle !!? Not trying to bust your chops, but outside of a few early ones that were sent to England for fitting out, they were Mark X's. The ones that were fitted,not manufactured, in England can be recognized by their obvious Proof marks, the 3 leaf island sight and barrel band and ramp front sight were soldered on, not a screw in sight. If yours has a quarter rib, somebody added that as the island sight was factory. I bring this up as I see dealers, all the time, trying to pass off these rifles as English made and they are not. They are a great rifle for the money, and I have three myself, but they are not manufactured in England. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
|
one of us |
Whitworth = Zastava (Serbia formerly Yugoslavia) Action is FN supreme clone. The origin of the Whitorth barrels I am not sure of. FN sold the tooling to Zastava when they quit making the Supreme. parts interchangeable with FN. Zastava also built FN mil Mausers after the War The action is a little rougher and less well finished than the original. All guns sold in GB whether made offshore or locally have to wear British proofs. | |||
|
One of Us |
Alf, Zastava made their own barrels, Whitworth included. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
|
One of Us |
Hi lee440, You're absolutely right. I stand corrected. I don't know why I said 1/4 rib. It is not. It is an island sight, with one fixed standing blade marked 100 yds, and two folding leaves that fold down flat marked 200 & 300 yds., with small cutouts on the sides of the leaves for better purchase. It does indeed say Manchester, England on the action, as well as Interarms, Alexandria, Virginia. It has quite a few proof marks (5 or 6), the island sight, barrel band front sling swivel, and hooded ramped front sight. I know little about all that you have revealed. Does this mean my rifle was built/assembled in England? The reason I assumed the rifle was built in England, aside from the Manchester, England marks on the action, was that in my 38th edition of 'Blue Book of Gun Values' it states on page 980, "Whitworth rifles were mfg. in England. Mark X rifles were mfg. in Yugoslavia by Zastava Arms until late 1997." So now I'm confused and obviously in need of further education on this subject! Thanks for your post. P.S. No matter where this rifle was manufactured, it's still a hell of a bargain IMHO. I am happy! | |||
|
one of us |
You might find this thread on NitroExpress.Com interesting. There is also this discussion on AR. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
|
One of Us |
My early Whitworth Express .458 has Whitworth Rifle Company, Manchester England. rollmarked on the top of the barrel in front of the rear sight. Behind the sight at 12 o'clock on the barrel, just in front of the receiver ring is a rollmarked Castle about the size of a postage stamp. BNP(British Nitro Proof) under a crown is stamped on the barrel and on the receiver next to the Mark X stamping. There is also Whitworth Express Rifle marked on the top of the receiver rail on the left side. The sights and barrel band are soldered on, so there are no screws visible. When I bought my first Whitworth .375 back in the early 80's, I was working at a large local gunstore and the factory Rep for Interarms told me that when Interarms decided to test the market for a British style rifle, they contracted with Zastava to supply barreled actions that were shipped to Interarms factory in Manchester for finishing out. They added the sights, bands etc. I was never clear on the stock origin, but all of the stocks look identical, whether the early England marked rifles or the later model guns that came complete from Zastava. The added cost of finishing the rifles in England, from a labor cost and mandatory British proofing laws standpoint, made them go to having them done by Zastava. The changes were screw on front and rear sights and a Uncle Mikes clamp-on barrel band. Those changes saved a fair amount of manufacturing cost that kept the rifle more affordable for the American market. The manufacture date is on the right side of the back receiver ring. The change came some time in the later seventies, my latest BNP is marked 1975. Anyway thats the story that I was given. British proof laws are very strict and if it came into England, was worked on in England, it had to be proofed, No BNP, never set foot in Blighty. They are great guns, especially for the money, I think I paid $450-$500 new for the ones I bought. British proofed guns are a real find and will bring a premium from a knowledgable buyer. Congratulations on your purchase! DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
|
One of Us |
It sounds like a good deal to me. What a pity FN flogged the tooling. Their old Mauser rifles were modern classics, still regarded as some of the most reliable rifles in Africa. For all the cost savings and bells and whistles, the modern Brownings are a step backwards IMHO. | |||
|
One of Us |
do not worry for the proofing in those days Yugoslavia was part of the CIP. | |||
|
One of Us |
Good grief! Thanks for passing on the info Charles! What a complicated compilation of facts and obfuscation. Sounds like the manufacturers were trying to give the rifle an English pedigree with an assortment of obscure proof marks, stampings, country origins, etc. Well, whatever the truth, as I stated earlier, I am extremely happy with my purchase. A lot of rifle with all the bells and whistles of a safari express model for the money. Now, if she'll just shoot, I will give thanks! | |||
|
one of us |
Yugoslavia was not part of CIP but had their own Proof House in Kragujevac now Serbia Whitworth, Churchill, Charles Daly (USA), Herter J9, Interarms Mk X, Cogswell and Harrison all House brand names for the same rifle , the Zastava LK M70 which in turn is a FN Supreme clone built on FN tooling sold to Zastava. (ZCZ) Remington made a deal with them in 2005 and sold ZCZ rifles under their own house brand. The Zastava FN connection goes back to after the war when CZC built Their M48 (Mauser 1948) from the FN model 24 Mauser The Whitworth CZC connection comes via the dealings of the infamous Samuel Rae Cummings. The original "lord of war" / "Merchant of death" / "Merchant of menace" Cummins was the originator of Interarms (1953) and he was arguably the worlds largest private arms dealer ! ( his dealings the subject of much discussion and political intrigue ) Cummings owned brand names in England like Whitworth after the old and defunct Whitworth as well a Coggswell and Harrsion and Farquharson He had warehouses in Manchester and the USA form where he plied his trade. In the 60's he imported millions of post Spanish civil war guns and ammo into the USA and sold them as surplus. His dealing with Zastava was primary with the selling of the M70 AKM's Through this he imported CZC LK M70's into England had them proofed and then exported them to the USA as the Whitworth. Yugoslavia though communist was not part of the Warsaw pact thus making trade with them "legal" | |||
|
One of Us |
Good grief x2! Thanks for the info Alf. | |||
|
one of us |
The CZC is actually not a bad deal at all, though the action bodies are not as well finished as the original FN actions there is nothing wrong with them. Unlike the Spanish Santa Barbara FN clones which due to re hardening are very brittle and prone to cracking. Parker-Hale used Santa Barbara actions exclusively. | |||
|
One of Us |
Hi Alf, You mentioned CZC. On my rifle, to the right of the Manchester, England stamp on the receiver, is a circular symbol that kinda looks like a C,Z,C all inside. Is this the CZC you mentioned? At first, when I saw it the day I bought it, I thought it was CZ rifle. Is CZC the same as today's CZ rifles, or the same history of an earlier company? | |||
|
one of us |
Sorry I made a error its ZCZ and not CZC Dont confuse CZ with ZCZ Two different countries though ZCZ built Brno Machine guns under licence ZCZ = Zavodi Crna Zastava = Serbian CZ = Czech = Ceska Zbrojovka The marking is a circle with the letters ZCZ superimposed in the circle. This was the mark when Zastava was part of Yugoslavia which was what the Whitworth was. The modern ( Serbian ) Zastava mark is 2 stylized Z's in a double circle The later ( not original ) Charles Daly traded company also for a short period sold ZCZ rifles and on their versions they had Charles Daly by Zastava stamped | |||
|
One of Us |
Thanks Alf! | |||
|
One of Us |
I recall seeing a very nice Whitworth Express 375 H&H for sale in the window of a gunshop in Germany in the early eighties when I was there. Several new packets of Kynoch ammunition were on display with the rifle and from memory the price was pretty good, the Deutsche Mark being the exact equal of our NZ$ at that time. Was impressed with the looks and Whitworth Express has a certain ring with it too. I had a German hunting licence so could likely have purchased the rifle. I had my Mauser Type A 404 at that time so bought a pair of nice Optolyth Alpin binoculars instead. Have always felt a tinge of regret when a discussion and photos on the Whitworth Express are posted. | |||
|
One of Us |
Sorry for your 'tinge of regret'! I'm willing to bet, more than half of the readers of AR have had these exact same feelings of lost opportunities of gun purchases over the years. I certainly have... I felt the same as you when I saw this rifle at the gun show. I have many rifles, and I really didn't need another 375 H&H ( have 5 now ), but when I looked at the that beautiful Whitworth, with all of the safari bells & whistles, picked it up and felt the balance, and looked at the price tag, I knew I'd be a fool to walk away from the deal. And, I've never owned a Whitworth before, so I am excited to see what it can do, and if pleased, take it to Africa. Something else also struck me. A number of persons worry a bit over taking their expensive rifles to Africa, submitting them to airlines, thieves, etc. It occurred to me, that this beautiful rifle, which I would be proud to take on safari, would not incur the same financial loss as my Dakota rifles if lost or stolen. Well, I haven't even shot it yet. It's pretty cold here with snow on the ground in Colorado, so when it warms up, it gets a working over at the range. My hopes are soaring... | |||
|
one of us |
I just sold mine, a real disappointment..I have this screwed up hand that allows me to shoot and rope but recoil is my limit, when that trigger guard hits my middle finger I go to my knees well almost anyway, it sure hurts and the .375 these days is over my pain limit, and try as I might with padded gloves and what not nothing worked, so I sold it to a fine gentleman, I could have installed a muzzle brake but it was just too nice to do that to it imo. I can shoot my Ruger 338 with the brake but not without one...Old age ain't for sissies but I have been blessed with my health, just a few notches in the carcass!! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
I don't think exclusively other than in later years. Early years they used 98 military actions and also mfg. some rifles on Brno ZG47. | |||
|
One of Us |
The Whitworths are nice "budget" Big Bore rifles assuming you're okay with paying for additional work, ... but they fall way short of the quality or reliability of, say, the BRNO .375s & . 458s. With additional gunsmithing work, you can get close. Sending a Whitworth off to the Wayner @ AHR is never a bad idea if you're looking for something special and practical to add your Big Bore collection. All The Best ... | |||
|
one of us |
The Whitworth is CRF (no PF) and CRE, with MF-Ejector The Winchester is CRF and PF (but no CRE), with MF-Ejector. I like them both. Dry/empty/bare rifle weights, sans any add-ons: Whitworth Mark X Express .458 Win. Mag.: 8.5 pounds Winchester M70 Super Grade Safari Rifle .458 Win. Mag.: 9.0 pounds I saved one from destruction, though .458-caliber with same barrel contour and everything else as the .375 H&H, except the action has not been opened up from 3.4" to 3.6", as with the .375 H&H factory rifle. Nothing wrong with that .375 H&H, except it was so easy to turn into a .375 Weatherby Magnum. Unfortunately mine got the old 1940s-vintage, excessively long throat. Boo hoo. Having more steel in the barrel, the .375 H&H is a few ounces heavier than the .458 Win. Mag. of same conformation. So here is to the unaltered Whitworth Mark X Express rifles in .375 H&H and .458 WM that have survived. My sole survivor has had the stock refinished, Lyman receiver sight fitted, glass bedding and hidden second crossbolt. That's all. The express rear sight can be replaced with a fold-down rear sight if the Lyman is used. Rip ... | |||
|
One of Us |
Hi RIP, Thanks for posting the photos! My new Whitworth Express 375H&H looks exactly like yours in the picture. Same exact features. Since I'm photo posting challenged, I appreciate you posting yours, which is a carbon copy of mine, looks-wise. They sure are nice rifles for the money! | |||
|
one of us |
surefire7, I figured as much, and I also figure you are going to have great success with your "find." Those Whitworth Mark X Express walnut stocks had a nice Circassian look to them. Rip ... | |||
|
One of Us |
Alf, they were part of CIP up to 1992. here is the proof directly from the CIP: http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/...files/D-1-4-14_0.pdf i think it was approved since 1974. | |||
|
One of Us |
RIP.......I just bought one that was a .375 H&H, but has already been re-chambered to .375 Weatherby. It is in superb condition and came with 150 rounds of ammo and all the guys load info. I think these rifles are a good bang for the buck. ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
|
One of Us |
Sorry to hear you had to sell your Whitworth Ray, but you'd have probably sold it anyway!! Hey, you sold a 35 Whelen! Even more sorry to hear how badly that accident has hurt your hand. Now I understand why you bought that 338 African with the muzzle brake! My father who passed away at 90 always said the same thing to me, that old age isn't for the weak. In the end, he was blind, deaf and had no teeth. I admire you for all that you can still do in your 80s. Actually, the things you do are really quite amazing. I hope when I get there some day, I can be like you and I am at least still shooting and hunting. I won't be wrestling livestock however! | |||
|
one of us |
Medvet: You are correct as the Proof House at Kragujevac had reciprocal acceptance with CIP from inception circa 1969 to 30 sept 1992. As the LK M70 was first made around 1970 but imported by Interarms as a Whitworth brand Express brand circa 1974 to 1996 s per Interarms catalogues. The 375's specifically discontinued in 1993 The Express models received special treatment in terms of finishing, call it "anglification" and because they were imported into the UK had to by law be reproofed with British Proofs which at that time was also a signatory of CIP. As a side note: Zastava's like many other brands were also available in South Africa but were branded by the local "gun shop tire kickers brigade" as inferior and prone to all sorts of "made up" short comings. A fate that befell many others and totally devoid of merit! Even our own Musgrave rifles were at some point or other viewed through the same distain when in fact there was no merit to it. | |||
|
one of us |
Surefire and all, All you have to do to not get old too soon is MOVE..stay active, run, lift weights,long walks, I rope a lot..It hurts but its a cheap price to pay for durability..and Im sure good genes play a part in it...I know I have been blessed, and I wish that to all of you. As to some on this post, Ive never seen the Whitworth was a lesser quality rifle than "todays Brnos" that they are comparing the Whitworth too...Id much prefer a Whitworth..but that said both need gunsmith attention, all factory guns need a lot of tweeking, and all good guns should be Mausers Be sure I am not including those wonderful Brno mod. 21 and 22 in this post, but rather the rough CZs that Ive never cared for... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
Wow, I couldn't agree more Ray! Great advice. My father was born in a different time, served in WWII, and his idea of good living was enjoying all the conveniences of modern living at the time. Why push a lawn mower when one could get a riding one? Why brush your teeth manually, when they sell electric toothbrushes? I love my father and he was a great, kind gentleman, but PE was not in his thought train. But hey, he lived to 90 just like his father, so I guess it worked for him. I have been an athlete all my life from my teens to age 66 presently. Fought in two world championships in the martial arts, one in Canada, the other in Scotland. Was the overall national grand champion in the USA in my last tournament. Ran 10 miles a day and competed in the 'fun runs' in my 20s and 30s. Took up bodybuilding in my 40s and my wife and I competed on stage for 5 years. Still felt great in my 50s, and then I hit my 60s. Owww. My body hurts. But I still agree with you Ray. I tell my students and friends, you just have to keep moving your body through space, under your own power! I can't even run anymore, so my wife and I walk almost everyday outside or on the treadmill. The weights I lift these days are laughable, but I do it about two days a week. I hunt, hike the Colorado mountains, and still teach and practice my martial art. I just don't jump as high or punch as hard, 'cuz it hurts. But my body still gets a free ride through space, compliments of a 'carcass with a few notches in it' to use your words! But I can't help but wonder what it will be like 20 years from now when I'm 86. Ray, thanks for giving a youngen' some hope!!!! Sorry for the birdwalking, but hey, this was my thread! Say, how about those Whitworths!.... | |||
|
One of Us |
I have a Whitworth in 416 Rem the only one I’ve ever seen I love it, shoots and handles excellently. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
One of Us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jwp475: I have a Whitworth in 419 Rem the only one I’ve ever seen I love it, shoots and handles excellently.[/QUOTE Really? Now that's pretty cool! Is that a factory caliber, or did someone convert a 375 to 416? | |||
|
One of Us |
That’s a good question, it has a factory barrel with 416 Rem on the barrel. If someone converted it they apparently rebored the factory barrel an restamped the cal on the barrel. It’s the only one I’ve ever seen. I didn’t think they were produced in 416. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
one of us |
The Blue Book 38th Ed. (2017) says this: WHITWORTH EXPRESS RIFLES - .375 H&H (disc. 1993) or .458 Win. Mag. cal., 3 shot, 24 in. barrel, 3 leaf express sight, English style walnut stock, checkered pistol grip and forend, 8 1/2 lbs. Imported 1974-96. 100% $995 98% $895 95% $825 90% $750 80% $650 70% $550 60% $450 LAST MSR $703 No .416 Rem. Mag. chambering is mentioned, so maybe that makes the one 475jwp has very special. Add a premium for that. The gunsmith that rechambered my .375 H&H Whitworh Express Rifle to .375 Weatherby in 1987 had a couple of the Whitworth actions on hand, and a couple of reamers he wanted to use. They were .416 Barnes Supreme and .450 Barnes Supreme. And, by golly, he had a couple of Douglas barrels to fit those reamers. Off to the races! When the .416 Remington was released the next year, I knew it was over 30 years late to the races, and they really did not steal it from George Hoffman. George just did the heavy lifting in reviving the .416-caliber rifle. Rip ... | |||
|
one of us |
RIP: Even more interesting the history and intrigue surrounding Interarms and Mr Cummings former FBI employee turned arguably the worlds biggest private arms dealer. In Intrigue because he supplied arms to good and bad guys the world over. The Whitworth named after the famous Whitworth company ( with the rifle and bullet firmly entrenched in the Civil War arms narrative ) The gunshop, Hunters Lodge in Alexandria, Virginia with its 10 warehouses from which Interarms distributed their Brands and imports from Spanish companies in Spain. I got this pic off the net. Potomac arms which housed Hunters lodge on the first floor. In the 70's I was always fascinated at the Interarms advertisements in Gun Magazines , They advertised old german mil surplus rifle including machine guns and even civilian versions of the Yugo AKM's. I did not quite understand how this could be because post WW2 millions of war arms were destroyed. It was only much later when the stories, books and documentaries about James Rae Cummings saw the light that it all became clear. He flooded via his warehouses and operations through Hunters Lodge the US surplus market with Spanish Civil War Surplus | |||
|
One of Us |
The receiver on my Whitworth Express .375 has U286 on the right rear ring and Whitworth on the left side of the front ring. There is a Whitworth oval banner on top of the front ring and a (CZ ?) logo aft of the Alexandria, VA. Manchester England on the left rail. Below the wood line on the left side of the top tang it says made in Yugoslavia. The express sights are screwed on and there is a secondary recoil lug under the barrel that is also screwed on. The rifle will shoot right at MOA with several different bullets, feeding and function are flawless so far. I am currently working on loads for the 300 grain A-Frame and CEB 300 grain solid to take to Tanzania this August for Cape Bullalo. Bob It's better to shoot for the moon and hit the fencepost than to shoot for the fencepost and hit the ground! | |||
|
One of Us |
I paid more for it than your blue book shows. I do not regret because the rifle is near perfect for me in handeling, shootability and is very accurate. I could not have built one from the ground up that suited me better for the cost of this one. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia