Hi
I'm looking for a rifle. I have a 30-06, and
I'm intrested in something for an Africa trip.
It's mainly a stopper, self-defense type rifle.

Saeed has pretty much proved anything in the world can be taken with a 375. I'm wondering if there are any compelling arguments for a larger caliber rifle, then a 375?

I like the 400 grain bullet weight of the 416, but don't like the double the price for ammo of the 375.

The 458 is supposed to lack penetration?
I've always liked 45 caliber in hand guns, and, at 1200 fps, a 345-360 grain bullet has plenty. How does it change, when it's a 458 win?

I guess I'm looking for a rifle I can shoot bunches, but that the ammo is cheap for, and is very accurate, and, the cost of the rifle won't break the bank.

Currently, I have a line on a 375 CZ 550 for 550, new.

Any suggestions?

gs

Soc,
I suggest you go ahead and purchase the .375.
Regardless of where you wind up one day, as to your preferred African bigbore, the .375 is a darn good place to start.

Socrates - Sounds like you answered you own question to me. If you don't like the price for .416 ammo and you think that the .458 lacks penetration, then the .375 is for you.

Personally, I skipped the .375 and went from a .338 to a .416 for my African guns. I like the better performance of the 400gr bullet.

At the end of the day, Nick is right the .375 for a one gun solution is a difficult to beat. Buy it, shoot it, and then start looking for a .458 Lott or .450 Dakota.

Socrates,

I also believe you should get the 375. I have used mine for all types of animals and am wonderfully pleased. I then had a 450 Ackley built on the same action using the same stock as my 375.

Mike

In my lowly opinion of having shot all the calibers mentioned, plus many others, and judging from your experience of owning and now shooting a 30-06, then I make the following suggestion: Locate some gun owners that have the mentioned caliber rifles, and ask to shoot them. Not off a bench, but standing up as you would in the brush.

Bigger is not better, but shop placement is the key. And if you hunt Africa, your PH will have the stopping rifle in his hands.

You need a rifle that you can consisitently shoot accurately offhand. Not from a bench or rest. And you must have a rifle that you can withstand the recoil and properly recover for a second shot.

I noticed that the .416 Rem was missing. The .416 Rem would give you the 400 gr. bullet with nary a price increase over the .375 H&H.

Jesse

I think that the new win model 70 in 416 remington is an excellent and economical entry into the big bore arena. If the recoil is too stiff, add a couple of mercury tubes in the stock to soften things up. Dies, brass, and bullets are cheap, although factory loads are always expensive for big calibers.

I think several have given you good advise.
I started My Professional career using a .375 H&H but, found it lacking in some serious stopping situations. I went to the .458 win. then to .460 weatherby. I did not like the performance of the .458 and the 460 only held two rounds in the magizine which is not enough when things go wrong.
I finally settled for the 416 Hoffman/Remington and see no need for a change. If I were you, I would go with the .375 as the PH will have a heavy to back you up with. However if you can handle the extra recoil and are willing to practice, then you might consider the .416 caliber. I find that most Prof Hunters, who feel the client has a adequate caliber is less likely
to feel he needs to jump in as quickly. Some ph's feel the the 375 is not a good stopper and when tackling dangerous game at close range feel the urge to get involved.
Just some thoughts. Do what you feel good with.
George

[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 12-30-2001).]

Hi
Thanks for the comments.

Is there really a problem with the 458 not having enough penetration? It looks like with decent bullets, and moderate velocity, it should be just fine.

If my pistol, with a 345 grain hard cast bullet at 1550 fps, will go through 38 inches of buffalo, what's wrong with the 458?
Can you download the Rigby, and 458, reduce recoil, and still end up with better penetration then the 375?

a 416, 400 grain, at 2100 fps shouldn't kill the shooter, but it should punch a very nice hole in most anything?

Just so you don't think I'm making this up, I bought the sister gun of the one in the picture.
http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/page3.htm

I, however, am no Ross Seyfried, either in my experience in Africa, which is none, or my shooting ability, which in this communist state, is a skill difficult to develop.

Anyway, do the 416 and 458 have reduced loads that are sufficent for anything, but buffalo, yet still don't break your collar bone?

gs

Socrates,

Please check this link:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=356&id=26

The article is by Ross Seyfried from Handloader Aug/Sep 2000, "Handguns, Rifles, Power and the Theory of Relativity".

It discusses the hand gun .45 bullets versus rifle results. It is a great reference.

I would urge you to try the .375 H&H first. Riflemaster John Gannaway says "The .375 is like a pair of black shoes, everybody needs one". I have three .375s now, 2 .375 H&H and 1 .376 Steyr. But one of the .375s is about to go to a gunsmith and be reborn as a .465 H&H (well, that is this week's plan ) That rifle is a BRNO 602, which is now being sold by Chay Zed as the CZ 550 Magnum Lux.

I buy at least one 550 .416 Rigby every year for our SCI Chapter fund raiser in San Diego, but I also get more .375s on the big bore side.

jim dodd
San Diego

George Hoffman who posted above developed the .416 Hoffman and collaborated with Remington on their flavor of .416. He had tons of Africa experience with that rifle, and you can take his reports to the bank. I remember one day finding an ad in Shotgun News for .416 Remington brass -- this was before the cartridge had been introduced. I called the number and found myself talking to George H. who was embarrased that the paper had run the ad early. We had a chat about his cartridge and the Remington version. Anyway I went down to the Remington dealer and ordered a .416 Remington that day.

------------------
"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Socrates-
You cannot download the 416 or 458 and still have better penetration than the 375. Why? Because the 375 will almost always outpenetrate them in the first place! I would never download a 458 except for practice, it has barely enough to begin with. Don't let the cost of ammo alone determine what caliber you buy, field performance is far more important. IF you can handle the recoil, the 416 is the one to have.

I am not an experienced African hunter but I just bought a 458Win to play with
I am planning on using it on the ordinary big game in this area i.e. moose and boar. The load I am planning to use are the Speer 350gr at 2500ft/s which trajectory will be in the hart area of a moose up to 200m. This is a mild load without as heavy recoil as the 500gr bullets and also mild on the brass. I have ordered some lead bullets and a mold to get the price down when practicing.
When it comes to penetration in African game read the link below

http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/solidsvmono_01.htm

The 458Win is fun
PerN

[This message has been edited by PerN (edited 12-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by PerN (edited 12-30-2001).]

Boy, are those articles an ear full.

OK:
Ross says the long bullet, something I thought would help accuracy, and penetration, in a 458, at low velocity, causes instability, and therefore won't penetrate as expected.
So, for the 458 you want a 25-26 inch barrel, and hotter loads? Sounds like tons of recoil...

Could you take the 458, use a lighter, shorter, 400 grain slug, and get higher velocity, and more bullet stability?

On the otherhand, you have two people saying the long, narrow, 375 is the best penetrator of all? Using a 300 grain bullet, at high velocity?

We also have two professional hunters, one mauled by a cape buff, the other by a lion,
arguing that the 375, that failed to stop those animials, is still adequate?

Another, who unhappy with the two rounds in the 458, designed his own damn caliber, and is posting here?

A SERIOUS earfull.

OK: Let's here about the remington 416.
Does CZ make a rifle for that caliber, or who does,and what do they cost? Hows ammunition, compared to the 375, and 416 Rigby?

I still wonder if the magic 400 grain slug, in a 458,at good velocity, out of a 25-6inch barrel might not be a good penetrator, but, considering the people commenting here, and their experience, I'm sure there is a reason the Remington 416 is the rifle of choice, and I guess, the magazine capacity is one big reasons.

Thanks all for taking the time to comment, and,
Merry Christmas

gs

Just got done reading the test of different premium bullets in 458, at about 2180 fps, and the penetration results. I guess
the 458 is adequate for just about anything, using a premium grade solid.

Are his prices on ammo correct? 200 dollars for a speer tungsten cored solid?
I've got to do a bit of checking on that...
gs

about 5 dollars a bullet for a tungsten core speer.

HMMM. Those south african solids look better every day.
gs

Socrates,
The Speer solids are $113 per 25 from midway. I'm going to try the Woodleigh solids.

Again, my advice is to shoot the various calibers and make a decision. All the advice and theories don't mean much when it comes to pulling the trigger yourself. Can't beat a 375 for easy recoil. And a good 416 is about unbeatable, just look at George Hoffman's experience. And the 458's? If this is your choice, go with a Lott. I was out at the range today regulating sights on a 9-3/4 pound 458 Lott, ran about 25 rounds through the rifle. Recoil is right up there, but with proper stock design it is not the man killer some think. This rifle has a 22 inch barrel with weight up front (it's a no. 6 contour) and handles very nice. It's going to Africa as a PH back up rifle. The key is to have a rifle you can manage. Shoot first, then ask questions.

Let us know where you are (meaning updating your profile with a location) and someone just might offer to loan a rifle to you to shoot. Heck, If you are near me you can help with sight regulation.

"From the Beautiful Olympic Peninsula of Washington State"

Old Gun Builder's quote: "Don't Believe What You Think!"

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 12-26-2001).]

I'm getting very intrested in the 416 Remington.
Who makes rifles for that caliber, besides remington, that wants 1600 dollars for a bolt action rifle

gs

Socrates:

Bullet: Sectional Density:
.375/300 0.305
.416/400 0.330
.458/500 0.340
.458/400 0.272

I'm given to understand that 1) penetration is higher with bullets of higher sectional density, 2) 400 grain 45 caliber bullets are mostly designed to perform well at 45/70 velocities, not in the .458 WM.

H.C.

HI John
I'm in the land of no ranges, inland from San Francisco.
gs

Anyone use cast, 400 grain LBT slugs in
458?

gs

If you want to play around with deer, hogs and other small game the 400gr bullets in the 458 are fine. They also help cut recoil and are cheaper to use for practice. As stated earlier, they are not designed for the game this cartridge was intended for. They will not penetrate as well and their structural integrity is questionable at the velocities the 458 can push them.
If you want a 458 to use on buffalo or whatever in Africa, plan on using the 500gr. bullets, or the GS FNs in whatever weight they are, 465grs? In a 24" barrel you should get close to 2100fps which is about the minimum for reliable penetration.
Or, just buy the 416Rem in a M70 and have less recoil, better penetration and less reloading headaches.

What is most important is how big of a gun can you shoot accurately? Everyone has an upper limit, and if you exceed it, your performance on game will go down as caliber goes up.

IMHO, most anyone can handle a 375 H&H, the 416's are too much for some, but I'd so on average, anyone who wants to shoot one can. The 45's are difficult guns to master, and are too much for most folks. To shoot the 45's you must have the desire to master the gun, as well as the selfcontrol not to keep shooting when the gun is too much for you. If I hadn't had a strong desire to handle the 458 lott, I wouldn't have, and I still have the utmost respect for the round, and the fact that some days, it wins, and I come home with loaded ammo.

If you want to go with the 416, and there are plenty of good reasons to do so, my advice is you invest in a custom stock (good advice for any gun, especially DGR's). A good custom stock will greatly aid the shootability of the gun, and reduce fealt recoil to manageable levels. I also highly, highly recomend a past recoil pad for rangework. The past pad eliminates bruising.

I'll have to re-post my thread on dealing with recoil.

I'm really leaning towards the 416 Remington.
Anyone make rifles for it, or an easy conversion, that won't break the bank?
gs

I believe the least exspensive 416 bolt action is the CZ 550 416 Rigby. Assuming you handload, you'll have to pay a bit more for brass and dies then the Rem Mag. The 416 Rigby CZ I handled the other day is a nice gun, decent iron sights, tootin near a 98 mauser action, and a couple C notes under $1k.

Many folks dislike the CZ stock, and while I agree aesthetically it is lacking, when I brought the gun to my shoulder eyes closed, then opened my eyes, the sights were right where they needed to be.

Now, if you want a 416 Rem mag, I'd consider getting a CZ-550 magnum action (~$500), and have a barrel (~$400-500) and stock ($200-500)fit finish($100) and irons ($100-200). You'll have an outstanding custom rifle in the $1200-1500 range.

I've never hunted Africa, but I bought a .458 Win cause I got such an outstanding deal on the gun. I am quite amazed at the claims from lack of penetration, I load Hornady 500gr solids 75gr's of N202 gets 2200fps from my 24" barrel, the penetration on everything I have tried it on is amazing. It shoots through trees, old car's, stacks of phone books, and sometimes even the berm behind.

SAKO makes 416Rem Mag in there standard hunter Serie and there cost should be reasonable (about 10 000kr (or~$1000) here in Sweden)
http://www.sako.fi/tables.html
PerN

Why not consider the cz in .416 rigby and change the stock, the bit extra you pay for brass etc. will not change your overall financial position ans you have the advantage of pushing the 400 grainers a little faster if yous wish.

Regards PC

------------------

GSf:
Did a bit of reading and research. I guess the early model loads had fly apart bullets, at lower then current velocities for the
458.

The 2-3 cartridge capacity is something that concerns me.

I also like the idea of being able of putting
5 shots into anything large enough to gore me.

gs