What in the heck is the 28 Guage Sig Super Mag?

Is it designed to fire .550" slugs from a rifled barrel?

Is it the "550 Nitro Express?" Is it chambered in a double rifle or a pump shotgun?

Here is a pic of, L to R
577-450-MH (Jamison)
28 GA Sig Super Mag 3-1/8"(Jamison)
Brass 20 GA 2-5/8"
600 NE 3"(Bertram)

He copied mine I guess. Mine is 3.25",and almost ready to
fire off in a bolt gun. Here is mine with cases, a regular
28ga plastic, 458Win for comparison, and 570 gr slugs.
I have a box of 20 cases, beautifly done, with strong radius
in the corners, and proper sides. Better than 12ga.
28ga is same as .550 barrel, which is what I have.

Kinda disapointed, having an order there for couple years
not getting done, had to get funds back so I could pay
for a big box of 28GA FH made for me by RMC. Should at least
build them right length and give credit.Ed

Ed,
Marc Jamison handed that case to me about two years ago when I popped in on him at his Sturgis, SD factory.

What does "SIG" have to do with your 28 GFH? Did you call it that originally?

Did you order your brass from Jamison over two years ago? He did not tell me about Ed Hubel being the originator. Somebody fired that case in what? A shotgun?

I have no idea why he would be showing it off to a street urchin such as I, if it was your order he was not delivering on?

so all it is is a 3 1/4 inch 28 gauge on all brass cases shooting slugs? Sounds super cool.

What are you expectingfor pressure and velocity?

I was not intending to point out skullduggery.
Just wanted to show off a brass case related to all the "From Hell" guages around here.

My personal preference would have to be the 28 GFH, what with all the .550 caliber projectiles started up by Neal Shirley.

A Street Sweeper with a rifled .550 barrel would be neat.

My name for case is 28GA FH like the other
FH cases. I got the idea for mine in 2006 and
put it on the 12GA FH early this year in Feb 07.
I didn't know of any others.I wish it could have got
in 12GA FH thread, as he apparently has dies all set
and we could have got cases in 2006 and saved time.
Frustrating to say the least.And the order I had
with them was a different case that I put order
to them in 05.I finally canceled as I couldn't wait
and went to other projects, this summer.
Feels kinda silly to think I got something
going original and a company has dies and stuff
already to make similiar a little while before
I got the idea.And there is quite afew shotgun guys
that plan on doing the 28GA FH. They also like the
idea of 550 rifled barrels and slug suppliers
that are around like Neal.Ed

What even might be interesting is 28GFH rifled tubes to be fitted in a light 12ga SxS (also think of extra shotgun bbls for a set!) for a poor man's double rifle. May have something of real interest there and recoil able to be handled by the majority.
Darn, am I setting myself up again?

prof242--- First I must apologise for saying
Jamison copied me. It is really frustrating.

Now to move forward. I've measured them and
a NEF 12ga frame would work as well as Ultra
12ga. Also the NEF 20ga slug gun frame.
We are talking moderate pressure loads
giving max of 570 gr at 23-2400 in break
actions. In my bolt test gun they can do more.
Now if you would redo a smooth bore, the slugs
could be hollow base and 400-450 gr to keep
accuracy like other smooth slugs are built.
Like the 600gr 12ga Dixie hollowbase.

Most important- the name- I call it 28GA FH,
just like 12GA FH- 8GA FH- etc, the FH has
no legal importance, could be Supreme, magnum,
Express,, any other word. Under current setup
you have to mark barrel. So barrel is stamped
28 GA by what ever length. Like 12ga from
factory- 12 GA 3", 28GA FH- 28 GA 3 1/4"-
or our 12GA FH- 12 GA 3 3/4", My 10ga
from factory marked 10 GA 3 1/2" -Ed

History Lesson number 2- The 12 GaFH concept was developed specifically to get around Kalifornia's .60 caliber destructive device law. 12 Ga anythings are exempt. I figured out how to take a .50BMG case, put a rim on it and basically make a 65KPSI 12 Bore out of it. The gun is by law a shotgun as it will also fire 12 Ga 23/4 shotshells with aplomb. Specifically designed to give Diane Feinstein the gun hemmoroid of her life. Damn that makes me tingly all over!
Ed Hubel actual took the idea and ran with it, developing loads for less expensive guns and ultimately developing the concept for other guages. Ed has done more with this idea than I and I consider him a equal partner.
One thing I've noticed is there is no dearth of people all very willing to take full credit for other peoples ideas. You can't patend cartridge designs and some people with low self esteem, will take full advantage of that fact. Frankly, I don't care, but I do insist that full credit be given and acknowledged. When I developed the .600OK, there was a guy here who changed a single trivial dimension on my design and then claimed he was the inventor of the .600OK. WE HAD WORDS. I think Mr Jamison was very very well aware of the 12 GaFH idea, liked it alot ( who doesn't) and deceided to appropriate it. Like we would not notice. BTW brass shotgun shells are not a new idea! High pressure ones are.
File that one away in your memory banks the next time you have the option to buy brass from him. -Rob.

i believe *I* have the senior frustration here... Ed, if you recall, we chatted about using a rimed gibbs, and I wanted to go with the 577/500 case .. that's what it looks like.. a brass 28ga shell, as a basic...

if one ran that through my 550 flanged die, and trimmed off .1, it would be my 550 flanged ....


Now, if I could buy (which I have been trying to do) some of those unheadstamped, I think I would be GIDDY...

jeffe

Jeff-I think base of your 550 Flanged bigger than 28GA base, which measures .620 to
.622" depending on brand of case. You used
a 577-500 case to make your flanged case,
and book says they are .645" base.
The 28ga folks can get RMC ones for sure.
He has tools etc all set.For 3.25" cases
and if we all stick to that then reamers all built same, dies all same. Strong cases, good
radius in the corners, 5 times better than
other gauges they build, 100 bucks for 20,
was my deal before brass went up. But cases
will last forever, at loads most handled.
I went for 28 ga knowing that you just stamp
the barrel, make sure it fires other 28
gauge cases of any shorter length and
no bureaucratic monkey work.Ed.

Rip

Has that case been fired?

I see the primer but what I was getting at is what has that case been fired in?

Neal,
That is the whole point of this thread. I do not know what it was fired in.
I am fishing for that answer myself.
I did not get that information from Mr. Jamison.
Gee was I supposed to keep quiet about this? I now vaguely recall that he did not want to talk about it.
After 2 years I forgot to keep it a secret.

Max,
A 12-guage monobloc with .550 caliber barrels set up for 28 guage shot shells and longer brass cartridges sounds great. I'll settle for whatever birdshot pattern I get with that.

Now where do I get the book on "do-it-yourself double rifles" so I can at least be conversant in finding a gunsmith able to do it?

I was hoping to dig up some info on the SIG Super Mag.

Is that a Jamison Joke?

RIP-- I am glad you brought it up.There are
guys wanting 28 gauges hopped up and this
just helps get out the info.Mine will be
firing in couple weeks. It looks as if they
took long brass they was making 577-500
from and run it through another swaging
step. Please post what the base, rim, and
mouth diameters are. Ed

Ed,
case length = 3.122"
rim = .675"
base = .622"
case mouth brass O.D. = .615"
brass wall thickness at mouth of case is about .015"

The case mouth opening is blown out to about .585", way bigger than .550" of 28ga.

Do you reckon he was shooting shot loads in a smoothbore with this?

What is the diameter of a standard 28ga chamber at the case mouth?

RIP- Thank you- That's what I thought.
Regular 28ga chamber at mouth is
supposed to be about .617" for 2.5"
chamber. He obviously fired it in a
28ga chamber lengthened out with regular
dimensions and his brass being drawn cases
is thinner than plastic or the thick wall
ones that RMC makes like ones I pictured
above, hence the oversize measurement of
.585" after firing. Now on my long chambered version I am doing chamber at mouth at .610
keeping brass from expanding too much and due to the taper the 28ga short cases still go
in ok. Same deal on 12GA FH, our brass was thinner at mouth than plastic so we made proper fit but yet chambered short cases ok.
My shotgun only friends around here have gone
bonkers over the concept of 3 tons of
energy with barrel marked 28 GA 3 1/4" .
Straight bullets, no expensive sabots.Ed

Ed and RIP, thanks for all the info. I've got a Beretta 682 O/U with sub-gauge tubes for skeet. This is what made me think of taking one of the stronger 12ga SxS's and having rifled tubes made up for it. The cost of two barrel blanks and the machining of extractor grooves/specs to fit 12ga bbls/lighten inserts, should allow this to work. Only problem (as always) is regulating barrels. Internal hex screws?

Max,
Of course the 400/.395 Nitro Express Aboriginal has to be in the bag before I can think of starting on a 28GFH.

Apparently the reamer is done but the headspace gages (go AND no-go) were overlooked somehow, and they did not have any standard 9.3x74R gages in stock.

I am going to build one of these with this reamer before you. Then you can borrow the reamer. This is since my smith has limited time and I am not screwing around any longer than I have to, as slow as things have been going lately with him. I am getting him started on the 400 NE as soon as Manson sends the gages.

If for some reason the neck is too tight or it is desired to go that extra silly millimeter longer, I have a separate neck and throat reamer to work it out with.

I have the 500 Mbogo coming along any day now, then the 400/.395NE, and the .395 Ruger Max to finish up. Then I am done with my wildcats.

Then all I have to do is see how many years it takes Stuart Satterlee to finish that action.

RIP,
Concur emphatically about the .400/.395 Nitro Express (where does the Aboriginal come in?) being done first. Of course, you should be the first to have one of these and to take the first animal with it! In fact, even after we both have completed our rifles, I will wait until you have blooded yours.

As to the 28GA FH SxS, this will be a dream for awhile. However, it does seem to be one of those Duh things. My hunting partner has a Stevens 311 that he's made into a slug gun just for S's and G's. Still, his 12ga with an ounce and an eighth of lead in brass cases at 1600fps could get many an animal's attention

Prof242,

go to the cast bullet forum, and look up my post "2 hours". That may be an answer. Lyman Sabot Shocker 12 Gauge Slug sitting in a 12 gauge trap wad. Slug is 510gr and .670" diameter. Start off with hot trap load data and let your shoulder tell you "when"! I'm pushing 1900fps and 1.5" 3-shot groups with my Savage 210 and a scope. THE answer to all those lame shotgun only with buckshot or slugs restrictions one sees around the country. Let me know if you need a few to tinker with.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Thanks for the assistance. Will "study up" on this.

Max,
Yep, we gotta get the 400/.395 NE "Aboriginal" finished birthing. I add "Aboriginal" as an emphasis that this is what the true 400 NE should have been by the usual progression from the old Black Powder cartridges to Cordite.
It was bastardized by Purdey to .405 diameter and kept light in the loafers with lightweight bullets and "light express" loads. The "Aboriginal" recreation will be flinging 400 to 410-grain .395 bullets at 2150 fps, or more modern bullets at higher velocity.

BTW, try this:
Use a 0.1" ramrod to seat a column of four #4 lead shot into the hollowpoint of the .395/310-grain SHark.
Next stand the bullet on its base in a pie pan with 1/2" water depth.
Apply the tip of the blue cone of a propane torch straight down into the hollowpoint until the lead melts and the tip of the bullet glows cherry red in a dimly lit room.

Voila! 12.8 grains of weight added to the SHark: 309.0 + 12.8 = 321.8 grains on average. A shallow lead-bottomed hollowpoint remains.

You could add a fifth shot pellet 3.2 grains, to get 325.0 grains and the lead just barely bulges out of the tip of the nose after melting, and very close to 325.0 grains exactly.

That will slow down the rapid opening of the hollowpoint and the annealing makes the brass nose less brittle ... I think this may be desirable.

Remains to be seen how accurate it will be, but I have another two months to wait on my .395 Tatanka dies from Redding, or hopefully sooner for a rifle AND dies to be finished in 400/.395 NE, or my .395 Ruger Max to go with those dies I have, thanks to you and Hornady's speedy work.

Dies for the 400/.395 NE should be finished by CH4D in another month or two.

Current reamer is 2.945" from base to end of neck. Chamber neck is .420" diameter at mouth, using the thin Norma 9.3x74R brass, for which max brass length is 2.941".

When the Hornady brass becomes available in 9.3x74R, if it is significantly thicker, I have a neck and throat reamer that would open the neck up to .428" chamber diameter and even punch the chamber out to 3.000" for whatever silly reason if desired.
Then you could call it the 400/.395 NE 3-inch "Unadulterated."

Ghost shoulder for thick brass only if it is needed.

RIP,
Great idea! I have all the necessary items (all shot sizes from T thru 12) to try this out. The slowing down of the expansion with the lead and annealing should make these just about perfect.

No pics even though developed. Either the cold, the blowing snow, or the overcast...or possibly all three have made the pics difficult to see. Am going to ask a friend if he can manipulate anything to improve the image. If not, I'm not able to show you much of anything on that elk shot.

Your bison, shot with the .395 Tatanka will be an awesome thing. Lets hope all pans out.

You seem to have all bases covered on the .400 NE. Should I be calling it the .400/.395 NE as you have done, or is my calling it the .400 NE enough? No, I don't want Aboriginal or Unadulterated on the barrel of my Ruger #!
My friend at Hornady says the 9.3x74R brass is programmed for production. We'll have it in the "fullness of time" as with the rest.

And sorry for being off topic from the 28ga.
Max

"400/.395 Nitro Express" is the name on the reamer.

"400/.395 NE" will be the convention.

"400-395 NE" if you don't care for decimals.

And no decimal before the .400? OK, 400/.395 Nitro Express it is.

Max,
I have this quirk about using a decimal only for the barrel-groove-size-matched-to-bullet-diameter designators.

Except for the .398 Lapua Mag. for headstamp fabrication purposes, since the head stamp to be altered says ".338 Lapua Mag."

We have to include ".395" because of the poseur 450/400 NE 3-inch that is casually referred to as the "400 NE."

No confusion: 400/.395 NE

The aboriginal 400 NE that should have been but never was until ... soon!