I have a .416 Rigby, a nice caliber. But I want a caliber for hunting elephant, I hesitate between the 500 Jeffery, .505 gibbs and the .500 AHR. Which is better ? The caliber whitout problems (feeding magazine, low pressure,...).
Maybe another caliber like the .450 Rigby ?

Alain,

A 500 Jeffery can be made to feed flawlessly if you hire an expert to build it. Such as http://www.rbbigbores, Reimer Johannsen or Duane Wiebe.

The 505 Gibbs is easier to get to feed, but again a custom rifle is a must for absolute reliability. And it will need a magnum action which preferably will have a bolt body diameter of 0.750". Granite Mountain Arms, Gottfried Prechtl or Karl Heinz Ritterbusch can source the action for you.

I would steer clear of the 500 AHR. At present it is only made by a third tier gun maker, and brass is made by Bertram which is known to have quality control problems.

A more practical choice would be .458 Lott due to ammo availability.

If you have a desire for nostaglia and are the least bit sensitive about resale (and have the dough) I would listen to 500gs. But if you want a practical gun that feeds easily, hits like Thor's hammer and has enough good loading components to be useful, look at the 550 Magnum. A first tier builder will make one if you want but it doesn't take a $9000 effort to deliver a safe, reliable rifle.

Other .510" choices are: 495A2 @ 3.6"oal, 500A2 @ 3.74"oal, 510 Wells oal is about the same as the same as 500A2. All three of these rounds use the big Wby case, fire formed and or trimmed as needed. Good brass and not as high dollar as the Jeff or Gibbs. If you do go less than 50 cal., look at the 470 Mbogo, a great, well balanced round.

As for the most practical and easy to feed, Dan is right the 458 Lott is a superb chioce.

Hog Killer

I like the Jeff or the Gibbsout of the rounds you mention.

I would think your 416 Rigby is fully capable of taking elephant, but if you have to go with a 50, I understand that

What is your budget for the rifle? A 500 Jeffrey poorly done is not a candidate for an elepant hunt, and a 500 Jeffrey properly done is an expensive proposition.

505 Gibbs is the more practical of the nostalgic rounds (relatively speeking), and would be my choice if I were looking at one of the older rounds.

The 500 AHR would by my last choice, brass is limited to Bertram, which is junk. It's hard enough to find brass for established 50's, I would not limit myself to a round that I had one source of brass for.

If you want a round that has practicle brass, both from cost and availability, and rifles are pretty straight forward to assemble, than I'd recomend the one 50 you didn't mention, the 500 A-square.

500 Grains/Paul H

Got to take some exception to some of the statements made about AHR and Bertram. I don't feel AHR is a third Tier rifle maker unless you are factoring a lot of snob appeal in that statement. The 500 AHR cartridge design is an improvement over the 500 Jeffrey, but obviously lacks the nostalgia of the Jeffrey. The rifle actions, CZ and GMA, and bbls used by AHR are as good as anyone in the medium price range and the stock work and wood in my two rifles are as good as any so called expert customs that I have played with at the DSC and SCI conventions. Albeit, some of the rifles need a little tweaking for feeding, the value for the money is good and the rifle accuracy high. Definitely, not third tier, that is reserved for remington.

Bertram brass can be a problem for many, but I can load the 500 to 2300 fps with no problems. Not in the level of quality of Horneber and others, but workable. No doubt the one source can be a problem, but there are limited sources of Jeffrey and Gibbs brass also, albeit better manufacturers. Once the Bertram brass has been once fired and full length sized, it is easier to load.
Just thought you guys were ass-kicking a little too hard.

Dak

Dak,

Not trying to slight AHR, just being realistic:

1st tier: H&H, Westley Richards, Hartmann & Weiss, and the fine custom gunmakers like Johannsen, Ritterbusch, Breeding, Echols, etc.

2nd tier: Semi-custom production guns, such as Dakota and Empire. Starts with a good action but is production quality. Some QC problems.

3rd tier: Economy semi-custom production guns such as AHR. Starts with a cheaper action and is production quality. Some QC problems.

4th tier: Off the shelf production guns. Rem, Win., Savgage.

Harry's right.. the 550s are certainly a darn cost efefctive solution. And Norma or Jamison brass.

I haven't built a 505 yet.. and with CZ having them for 1500 bucks, I doubt I go through the trouble to start one.

As a fella that's actually BUILT a 500 jeffe, allow me to tell you the feeding issues are huge. yep, the AHR is a tad better... but at that point, the gibbs, or at least a 510/505 wins the nod.

If you want a whomperstomper that will leave you bucks for a safari, either a 500a2/510wells or a 550 magnum or express are just rebarrels (and big bore specalist gunsmith time) away.

As for Dan's comments, it might be better to rank them in terms of dollars spent

over 50k
10 to 50k
5 to 10k
3 to 5k
and 3k

This isn't in any subjective or unequally applied terms, cash is always cash.

under 3k you can have a cz from their custom shop in 550 magnum, 505 gibbs, or make a 510/500x460w

3 to 5
there's a pretty wide window here... function can be first rate, even looks can be great... in fact, in this price range is where you get into real "desirable" guns... remember that an "army navy" double rifle, in the uninflated cash of the day, be had IN THAT TIME PERIOD

5k and up... you better be serious.


your call, but take a look at http://www.550magnum.com or http://www.weaponsmith.com

jeffe

Dan,

I must say, from personal experience, that you are flat-out wrong about the AHR rifles. They are not just the equal, but are head and shoulders above, your second tier. I have four of them that are all that a DGR could hope to be--so please trust me, I know.

An example re: your second tier: In the Caprivi this October, I saw a very nice Dakota .450--with a stock split back from the tang to the nose of comb. You will NEVER see that on a rifle that passes muster with Ed Plummer. Double cross-bolts and a barrel lug make that a non-event.

As for your first tier, all I can say is OH YEAH! Man would I love to have a safe FULL of them. But, alas, I am too practical.

Those first tier rifles are ridiculously over priced. IMHO, AHR provides the same or substantially similar fit and function for a third or less of the cost of such pieces. Nice, yes. Really nice, hell yes. Necessary, HELL NO!

As to caliber, what mon ami Alain needs is LE PLUS PRATIQUE ET UTILE .500 made--the .500 A-Square. AA got that one RIGHT.

The Jeffery is more [feeding] trouble than it's worth; the Gibbs missed the boat on bullet diameter and DONC, available pills; and the AHR suffers from that horribly soft and unreliable Bertram brass. (WHEN will Bertram EVER just get the bloody alloy RIGHT?)

The A-Square is THE most practical .500 out there. 600 grains at an EASY 2,300 fps. For the adventurous, and I am one, soon there will be Barnes FN solids weighing in at 570 grains, which can be driven to 2,500 fps with pressure to spare.

Can't wait! I hope that they have some for sale at SCI in Reno. My humble opinion only, based only on direct personal experience rather than anything else. You are welcome to disagree.

Actually I've had absolutely no problems with the .500AHR Bertram brass AHR sells. The .500AHR is a improvement over the .500Jeffery. I actually feel the AHR rifles are excellent values assuming you order their single stack magazine. One thing AHR really has going for them is that they actually try and meet their delivery schedules. Unlike most real custom gunsmiths. Personally, I don't find the increase in quality to be worth the wait. Sometimes you get both the wait and a gun with problems. This is exactly why I got into building guns myself. By the way, the single stack mag corrects the inherent feeding problems when using this cartridge in a CZ550 action. For 3.5K the .500AHR is a heck of a gun. They use excellent wood and the checkering they do is outstanding. While I have a pretty darn nice 505 Gibbs(that feeds), I find I'm just not that impressed with the cartridge. Personally, I think a 500A2 is still the best bang for the buck in terms of power, reliability, flexibility ( shoots mil surp ball and 750 A-maxs for fun)cost and gunsmithing. Next would be a 550 mag IMHO. I sense you would like some exclusivity and everyone has a Lott these days. There is just something cool about having something a bit out of the ordinary.-Rob

Thanks for these advices-But when I read all the informations, isn't a better choice in .500 for a double rifles?
Excuse me for the mistakes, I'm belgian.

Alain,

For getting close to elephant, of course a .500 double rifle is a better choice! You have not stated your budget for the rifle, however.

mrlexma,

No offense about AHR, but there have been some reported problems with them. They produced some 500 AHRs with feeding problems, one fellow received his rifle from AHR with express sights that hit a foot low and 18 inches left, and another fellow received his AHR rifle with a pull that was 1.25 inches short of what it was supposed to be. That is what I mean by QC problems. Dakota also has QC problems, not just the split stock you mention, but they also had a rash of misfire problems for a while. I applaud AHR for trying to produce a DGR in the $3K to $5K price range. But I must be realistic about the past track record. Hopefully all those problems will be ironed out for the future.

Dan,

Not to hijack Alain's thread, but no offense taken at all. I am simply reporting on my experience. I myself have had problems with two of my AHR rifles during the "shake down" phase. That, to my mind, is not surprising, given the market "niche" they occupy.

Any rifle in your "second tier" will have occasional QC problems. To me, the question is, will the maker stand behind it? Ed does. He will fix anything that needs fixing, if anything should.

My problems have not been major ones, either. Feeding and sighting required some tweaking on my .458 Lott and my .500 A-Square.

AHR rifles are extremely well-designed and executed, and provide the most "bang" for the buck in the semi-custom market, IMO. And, in my fairly extensive experience with them, they are definitely not "third tier."

Mais, a chacun son gout.

Alain, a .500 double is a great rifle. I am going to get one myself!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Dan,

Not to hijack Alain's thread, but no offense taken at all. I am simply reporting on my experience. I myself have had problems with two of my AHR rifles during the "shake down" phase. That, to my mind, is not surprising, given the market "niche" they occupy.

Any rifle in your "second tier" will have occasional QC problems. To me, the question is, will the maker stand behind it? Ed does. He will fix anything that needs fixing, if anything should.

My problems have not been major ones, either. Feeding and sighting required some tweaking on my .458 Lott and my .500 A-Square.

AHR rifles are extremely well-designed and executed, and provide the most "bang" for the buck in the semi-custom market, IMO. And, in my fairly extensive experience with them, they are definitely not "third tier."

Mais, a chacun son gout.

Alain, a .500 double is a great rifle. I am going to get one myself!

mrlexma,
Je vois que tu écrits très bien le français, en conclusion de tout ce qui est dit, le meilleur choix n'est-il pas dans la classe des calibres .500, une carabine double (double rifles)? En effet, je remarque que beaucoup ont des problèmes d'alimentation avec les carabines à verrou en .500.
Ou alors, peut-être choisir un calibre dans la classe des .450 comme le .450 Rigby ou .485 Lott
en arme à verrou (bolt action)?

Alain,

Pas tous les carabines a verrou en .500 ont des problemes d'alimentation. Pincipalement, le .500 Jeffery a ce probleme. Ce cartouche a un "rebated rim" et ca c'est difficile de faire fonction proprement dans le verrou.

Generalement, ni le A2 ni le Gibbs a ce problème.

Mon A2 est tres fiable.

Ah problems with custom guns! There really is no correlation with price. The correlation seems to be far more related to the gunsmith. If you can afford to wait and wait and wait ( I'm already gray) you can get a gun that works for big bucks from a few really talented people. If not, then your really likely to have some sort of problem i.e split stocks, feeding, ejection, etc. with any of the big bores once you get past factory .416 Rigby's and .458 Lotts. I think I could make a tidy little income fixing stuff like that. As we all know, Over the last few years some of us have really figured out what works and what doesn't in order to make reliable big bores. It isn't rocket science, but it isn't trivial either. Once you have the equation right, the next level is artistry in wood and metal. The air is really getting thin now! The final phase is a work of ART, that never leaves the gun safe because ut's too pretty to hunt with. Been there, done that. I prefer the second level myself.
As far as AHR goes, I also had problems with mine and suggested the fix to Ed. He listened to me and the single stack mag was born. How many othyer companies really listen to their clients? Sure they are not perfect but I'm not paying 15 grand for any bolt gun. A double maybe/probably!-Rob

mrlexma, merci pour ton avis.
Mais entre le .500 A2 et le .505 Gibbs, tu préféres lequel ?
En Europe les munitions A-SQUARE sont difficiles à trouver !
Finalement, une carabine double "double rifles" n'est-elle pas meilleure en cal. .500 NE ou .470 NE ?

Alain,

Je prefere le A2 parce-que la balle est de calibre 0.510" au lieu de 0.505". Il y a beaucoup des choix dans 0.510". Il est malheureusement le cas qu'il n'y a beaucoup des choix dans le calibre 0.505". Donc, pour moi, le A2 est le choix le plus judiscieux.

En ce qui concerne les munitions, je comprends votre probleme. Peut-etre le Gibbs serait meilleur pour vous.

Dans une carabine double, c'est le meme probleme. Les munitions. Je prefere le .500 NE parce-qu'il est plus fort, mais on peut acheter les cartouches en calibre .470 NE plus facilement que .500 NE.

Pardonnez mon francais. Je n'ai pas l'ecrit beaucoup recemment.

Agree with Mrlexma and Rob, the AHR rifles are at least double tier, but are still priced reasonable enough to be used as a big game hunting rifles. However, 500 Grains takes issue with some clinkers that got out, hopefully it was in the early days when they were getting set up. One of mine needed some adjustment, but the last two, the 338 Lapua and 600 OK are high quality with no problems as issued. All three were very accurate.
Absolute-quaranteed perfection costs much more and I don't think it is worth the wait!
In AHR's favor, they seem willing to try any number of wildcat big bore calibers while other custom rifle makers may pass on the opportunity.

Dak

I would say that AHR cannot climb up to 2nd tier until they drop the CZ 550 and start using something a bit higher grade as their platform. The Dakota action, which is just a Win M70, distinguishes Dakota from AHR and makes a Dakota a bit more desirable in terms of the action. Perhaps AHR can start doing most of their guns on the wff Hein action. That would give them a unique niche and a quality product. If fit, function and finish are approaching best quality, then their image in the market will change for the better as well.

This is just an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I would say that AHR cannot climb up to 2nd tier until they drop the CZ 550 and start using something a bit higher grade as their platform. The Dakota action, which is just a Win M70, distinguishes Dakota from AHR and makes a Dakota a bit more desirable in terms of the action. Perhaps AHR can start doing most of their guns on the wff Hein action. That would give them a unique niche and a quality product. If fit, function and finish are approaching best quality, then their image in the market will change for the better as well.

This is just an opinion.

Hey Dan,
Thanks for the opinion. There's something that all of us, me included, need to remember. A business can't stay in business unless it is somehow the preferred vender.

might be the preferred vender for that price point and moment, might be the ONLY vender at that price point and moment...

now, for my opinions..
when a fella asks around a rifle, long odds are he doesn't want to wait a year and pay over 10k for it. PRICE POINT .. unless he generally states something like "i am looking at a purdy double or an original 500 jeffery" should one assume that he wont or can't pay wiebe's rates.

Second,
can we keep the measurement tools standardized?

you state that ahr needs to start with a better action, while praising empire. Now, don't get me wrong, both George and Ed make great rifles. .. but Empire starts with a roughed out mauser copy, that even the importer of the actions says it will take at least 10, if not 15 hours to clean up.

The difference between Empire's rifles and AHR's rifles is what the BUYER is willing to PAY, not what a couple of internet gunguys are willing to SAY about empire and ahr..

if a fella has 1500 bucks, his choices are cz or rsm .. (used 416 rebored to gibbs)

to 4000 AHR

way past 4000..anyone you want

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Dak,

Not trying to slight AHR, just being realistic:

1st tier: H&H, Westley Richards, Hartmann & Weiss, and the fine custom gunmakers like Johannsen, Ritterbusch, Breeding, Echols, etc.

2nd tier: Semi-custom production guns, such as Dakota and Empire. Starts with a good action but is production quality. Some QC problems.

3rd tier: Economy semi-custom production guns such as AHR. Starts with a cheaper action and is production quality. Some QC problems.

4th tier: Off the shelf production guns. Rem, Win., Savgage.

Nice post Dan!

Anyone seen a 500 Jeffery on a Dakota 76?

I am thinking Empire or Heym any suggestions?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

you state that ahr needs to start with a better action, while praising empire.

Huh? I didn't mention Empire. I merntioned AHR upgrading themselves to 2nd tier, which would require both more attention to quality and a better action than the CZ550 as a starting platform. (IMO)

The fact is that no one builds a 2nd tier rifle for 4K. And it would be fallacy to think you have access to any gunmaker you want for 4K. To talk to H&W you need a budget of 20K+. For a nice wood stocked Echols plan on 15K. For a Breeding with some decent options, plan on 12K or more.

Dan what would you think of a 500 in an Empire rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Dak,
....
2nd tier: Semi-custom production guns, such as Dakota and Empire. Starts with a good action but is production quality. Some QC problems.

Dan,
actually, you did mention empire.... which starts with a $500 action (for 30-06 sized cases) .. so, like I asked, can we keep the measurement tools standardized?

what you stated was that AHR couldn't make a good rifle unless they started with a higher dollar action... but you also said empire was second tier, .....

of course, the gentleman could buy a 505 gibbs from CZ, send it to their custom shop, and for a couple benjamins, have a perfectly feeding, bedded, functional WORKING rifle for way under $2500...

tier 5 for all I care, it's a gibbs and it works ... everything past that is personal taste
jeffe

OK, so I have bad short term memory.

Some of the Empire guns come out nicely, but not on par with Echols, Breeding, H&W, etc. I do think the Empire guns I have handled had more attention to detail than a Dakota. As I understand it, Empire farms the work out on a piecemeal basis to various gunsmiths around the country. One guys does action and sights, another does the stock, etc. At $6500 to $8K for an Empire DGR, personally I would bit the bullet and step up to a $12K Breeding rifle, but that's just me.

For whatever reason, first tier guns are made from old or new production Mausers that are all trimmed up to work properly, or model 70's (new or old) with the same attention to detail. And once in a while an Enfield. But CZ550's just never make it into that category. Even the occasional BRNO 602 made into a DGR by H&H 30 years ago will not command what an H&H FN Mauser will fetch.