I just finished building a 404J (other threads here detail the construction part), and I decided to leave certain parts alone until I had shot the rifle for the first time, so I could properly evaluate the other changes I would make.

While I added a little over a pound to the stock to bring the empty rifle to just under 9 3/4 pounds, I left the factory recoil pad on. My first time at the range I was able to fire 6 rounds before my shoulder said it was time to stop. I was shooting 400g DGX'x loaded over 69g of RE-15. This gave me 2130 FPS.

After that session, I removed the lead from behind the recoil pad and installed a 4 X 3/4 Graco mercury recoil reducer and a 1" Pachmyr Declerator.

Today's range session was far more pleasant. The combination of the two new parts turned the sudden jolt into a firm push (shooting on sticks). No problem putting 6 rounds down range. I did shoot one round of 80g of IMR 4350 with the same 400g DGX. This round registered 2250 and was decidely unpleasant.

It appears to me that the recoil reducer and new pad knocked about 120 FPS of felt recoil off the rifle. The round I shot at 2250 felt like the previous session with the stock recoil pad and no recoil reducer.

I am certain that as time goes by and I gain experience with the rifle, I will be able to bump the load up a bit, but right now it feels great. I mounted the recoil reducer high in the stock so it is nearly inline with the vectored force of the recoil.

And the reason you aren't wearing a PAST pad is?
this

I don't wear a PAST pad because I won't be wearing one when I hunt.

I have a 375 H&H I was using for safari rifle shoots. I added a muzzle brake and mercury reducer. Recoil is much reduced, can shoot all day.
I have hunted with it, I wear Walker game ear.

Mark
(Bracing for anti muzzle brake rants)

400g at 2150 should be enough for anything. Sounds like you're doing good

I always use a PAST pad when working up loads or practicing with the larger bores. You never want your gun to hurt you, you will never like it after that. In the field hunting, no PAST pad. I never notice the recoil when hunting.

Forget the PAST pad. If recoil bothers you, get an Evo-shield shirt . Far better.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Forget the PAST pad. If recoil bothers you, get an Evo-shield shirt . Far better.

Please tell a bit more about experience with the Evo-shirt.

How does it feel in heat? How tight is the Tshirt? How long does a shield last? How washable is the shirt?
Does it spread the felt recoil equally well after 100 uses or 500? etc.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Forget the PAST pad. If recoil bothers you, get an Evo-shield shirt . Far better.

i respect your opinion - i have mine - could you explain the qualitative measures used and how much is "far"?

for my uses, such as several rifles and several shooters, and just out and out effectiveness - the past works GREAT for training new bigbore shooters and load dev

Well if its working for you then that is all that really counts, but I'm not sure an in depth study wouldn't fill your approach with actual facts to the opposite?

Shooting a 404 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 plus isn't much of a test for that caliber or real recoil..I shoot my 404 at 2400 and sometimes much faster with a 400 gr. bullet...therefore, in your case I would recommend that you opt for a 375 H&H with a 300 gr. bullet at 2500 FPS as a better option and as good a buffalo killer and with considerably less recoil. That said, a 404 at 2400 FPS is about as perfect a buffalo killer as I know of, and bests the 375 H&H under any circumstance if one can shoot it..Shooting accurately is the bottom line under any circumstances.

History shows that the original 404 load was about 2125 FPS, to duplicate the 450-400 and that Africans complained about the 404s ability to put down large animals at that low velocity so RWS, Kynoch, and I suppose other ammo companies listened to the Africans and upped the velocity of the 404 to 2300 FPS and that is when the round became famous, contrary to some posts that I have read on various blogs..Just food for thought.

For myself, I would not own a rifle that I had to deal with reducing its recoil with gimmicks, I'd opt for a lesser rifle such as a .375 or 9.3x62 that I could shoot more accurately, but I do believe that with a little practive anyone should be able to go shoot 50 rounds of full blown 404s off sticks or offhand at one shooting session.

In my youth the 375, 458 Win. and 404 was a handful and I didn't shoot them well at all, so I started installing muzzle brakes and that worked..at the end of each session I shot a magazine full of rounds off hand without the brakes attached, in roughly 6 months to a year I was shooting them all without the brakes, even off the bench, and without brakes when hunting and I actually became immune to recoil, for all practical purposes, short of the big 500's which I can shoot, but I still feel a bit uncomfortable shooting them, so for that reason I don't hunt with them..

All that said, at 80 and with a recent reconstruction of my right hand from a roping accident, I don't shoot anything these days larger than a .338 win or 9.3x62. but I'm slowing recuping and got by fairly well with a 416 Rem shooting session, and its improving every day.

Just a different approach to the subject and submitted for what its worth. May not work for others??

Since this is the largest caliber I have shot, I suspect that starting at 2125 and slowly working my way up should give me a decent rifle with a bit of practice.

I would prefer to start comfortable and bump the load up in increments over the course of the year rather than try to accomodate a heavier load from the get go.

quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:
Since this is the largest caliber I have shot, I suspect that starting at 2125 and slowly working my way up should give me a decent rifle with a bit of practice.

I would prefer to start comfortable and bump the load up in increments over the course of the year rather than try to accomodate a heavier load from the get go.

That sounds reasonable. It will also give you a chance to do an 'incremental ladder test' to find out what velocity and charge produces the tightest groups and which velocities produce a 'scatter node' where the group may double in size.

I always shoot my rifles, even the lighter calibers, off the bench with a sled and 25 lb lead bag when testing loads. No reason to punish yourself.

My first "big game" rifle was a .458 Winchester Magnum I had built on a Springfield action back in the early '60's. I was frankly scared of it, and it took a lot of shooting .45-70 class loads in it before I ever got up enough courage to try a full load. When I did, it was surprisingly manageable.

I cast about to find something to put the .458 in perspective. After a lot of consultation with John Buhmiller and the purchase of a barrel from him, and the design and manufacture of a reamer to my specifications, I came up with what I called the .505 SRE for Short Range Express. It consisted of the .460 Weatherby case shortened to 2.500" and opened up to take .505 caliber bullets.

Imagine my chagrin when I found out that the Gibbs was a proprietary cartridge and the components were not commercially available. What was available were .500 NE components, so that is what I used, swaged down to .505" from .510". I found that with 90 grains of 4064 I could duplicate .500 NE performance with the 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps.

All my testing was done with a primitive version of a "lead sled" which I built myself, more or less on the pattern of a device used by German gunsmiths to sight in their weapons.

Once I had satisfied myself of the cartridge's performance and accuracy, I seldom if ever fired a full load except at game. All my practice was done with reduced power cast bullet loads, which I could fire with total comfort. When I got to Africa, I confirmed my zero by firing over the hunting car hood with a folded towel inside my shirt and from then on shot only at game.

I accounted for a black rhino, three elephants and five Cape buffalo with this rifle, and despite the fact that it weighs only 8 3/4 pounds, I have never noticed the recoil shooting at game. With the adrenaline flowing, a little matter like recoil is insignificant.

Your 505 SRE is very close to today's 500 AccRel Nyati in terms of hunting.

The cartridge load could probably take a bit more than 2150fps, but that appears to have gotten the job done, and comfortably!

I'm with larryshores on the Evoshield shirt. It is intended to spread the recoil over a larger area of your body, so the #/square inch are reduced. The T shirt is very stretchy and has a pocket in the area of the shooting shoulder. The thin fiberglass or resin pad fits in the pocket. The pad comes in a plastic pouch that contains a liquid and a catalyst. Massage the pouch to mix the two, sort of like the old margarine packets. Mount the rifle properly and hold it there until the pad hardens. (I suspended the rifle from the ceiling to make it easier.)

I load and test for several friends and myself, calibers from 6mm to 458 Lott. I sometimes spend several hours at the bench, firing 5 or 6 rifles, and up to 100 rounds. I can do that without getting sore or bruised, and without developing a flinch. Now, the best part.

You can wear the shirt under a normal shirt and let the youngsters think you're an iron man! I finally 'fessed up to the young Range Officers at Issaquah Sportsmens Club, my home range.

Evoshield makes lots of products for sports, like elbow guards, etc. Good stuff.
Brice

PS: It's available left hand.

If you had left the lead in and just changed the recoil pad, my guess is your result would be the same. I found the Mercury recoil tubes pretty much had exactly the same effect as adding an equivalent weight without the wierd sloshing feeling.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by larryshores:
Forget the PAST pad. If recoil bothers you, get an Evo-shield shirt . Far better.

Please tell a bit more about experience with the Evo-shirt.

How does it feel in heat? How tight is the Tshirt? How long does a shield last? How washable is the shirt?
Does it spread the felt recoil equally well after 100 uses or 500? etc.[/QUOTE

Sorry for the delay. We have been hiking in Iceland.

We used the PAST pads for years. I even went as far as taking them to Argentina for high volume shooting. I vividly remember my first trip. I shot about 8,000 rounds in 4 days. My shoulder was still bruised severely. Actually, it was bleeding.

I switched to the Evo-shield shirt. I now take these shirts to Argentina and have thrown all of my PAST pads away. Why? I have used the evo-shield when I shot 6,000-8,000 rounds out of the same gun and I do not even have a mark on my shoulder. It is amazing
.

The PAST pad simply can't perform as well as the Evo-shield shirts. No comparison . Not even remotely close.


As for your other questions :

1- the shirts are washable. All of mine have been washed many times.

2- the shirts are supposed to fit somewhat tight .

3- the pad itself cannot be washed. It is easing removed .

4- I have yet to wear out a pad. I have some that surely have been used for more than 30,000 rounds.

Please note that I also find it effective with my 500 NE.

Finally, all my friends who go to Argentina have switched. Their observations are the same as mine.

Larry, thanks for sharing your experience with this product. I had not heard of it. Sounds like it really works.

I added Ken Rucker's "Bump Buster" hydraulic recoil systems to my CZ 550 375 H&H, Tikka 9.3x62, and H&K SLB 2000 .30-06. Works great. You can adjust LOP and dial in the amount of recoil adjustment.

See: http://bumpbuster.blogspot.com

Its a common approach to shoot reduced loads to learn how to handle recoil, the guy that came up with that approach must have been on meth!

If that were so one could shoot a 30-06 to teach him to shoot a 338 or 375, no need to use reduced loads..

I think a better approach is to learn how to shoot a 458 Lott to start with then when you shoot a 416 it feels like a maidens caress as O'Connor used to say! Or one could shoot a .338 to learn how nice a 30-06 is..its worked for most folks that I suggested it to???

For the occasional shooter who doesn't have time to practice for whatever reason I would suggest a detachable muzzle brake for those bench sessions and when hunting alone..They certainly take the recoil out of any rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
If you had left the lead in and just changed the recoil pad, my guess is your result would be the same. I found the Mercury recoil tubes pretty much had exactly the same effect as adding an equivalent weight without the wierd sloshing feeling.

There is a conspicuous difference in perceived recoil between the lead and the mercury recoil reducer.

I can detect no 'sloshing' of mercury. I have used them for years in big rifles.

I don't need to 'guess'. I tried it both ways.

After six rounds with the lead, I couldn't shoot for two weeks my shoulder was so sore.

Now, I am shooting once a week with no soreness at all.

I have a different method of shooting hard kicking rifles.
I typically shoot full power loads and after several shots when it starts to become uncomfortable I switch to a .223 or 22/250 for 5 shots and then switch back.
Keeps me from developing bad shooting habits.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I have a different method of shooting hard kicking rifles.
I typically shoot full power loads and after several shots when it starts to become uncomfortable I switch to a .223 or 22/250 for 5 shots and then switch back.
Keeps me from developing bad shooting habits.

Sounds reasonable and prudent.

quote:

Forget the PAST pad. If recoil bothers you, get an Evo-shield shirt . Far better.

Just ordered one.
I am looking forward to trying it out.

Austin Hunter,
I have split two bolt action wood stocks and one double rifle with the Lead sleds, and I know of nermourous rifles that have been ruined by using them..I sold mine for that reason. Probably fine with composite stocks??

It seemed to work fine up to about a .375 H&H then the trouble began..just my two bits for what its worth.

I worry about my stock when I use my lead sled on my 500 Jeffery. I only use it for load development and since I'm done with that, haven't needed it for several years. I can tell you with 35 lbs on it the entire sled/rifle combo jumped up and moved back 2 inches even with a firm grip with a 570g TSX at 2500 fps. I backed off to 2300 fps and its much more pleasant. Fine to shoot offhand, a little painful from the bench after more than 5 rounds (which I only do to confirm sight in each fall).

When myself and my sons shoot our 375 Weatherby or our 416 Rem we put a few rounds down range with the 500 first. Then the 375 and 416 just feel like pussycats.

Which EvoShield shirt is everyone using? My cellphone isn't working very well on their website.

TIA,
Sid

I shoot a lot of heavy calibers off the bench, and have been using two old PAST pads stuck together.

These are thinner than the new MAGNUM models.

They certainly remove a lot of the pain - especially for me, being 5'6" and weigh 130 pounds.

I broke 2 Sharps at the same place,behind the pistolgrip. 1 was a 45-90 the other a 45-70.It now a doorstop.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
Which EvoShield shirt is everyone using? My cellphone isn't working very well on their website.

TIA,
Sid

I do not know the name. It is basically a t shirt made of some synthetic material. It has a pocket on the shoulder in which to insert the "pad". You must order right or left hand.