Cost aside, which one would you shoot, and why?

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
Cost aside, which one would you shoot, and why?

470 Mbogo. I do have one.

You can make your own brass from .416 Rigby basic, .450 Dakota, etc. ... after you have laid in a supply of the proper headstamped stuff from QualCart.

You can find bullets a lot easier. Even pistol bullets for squib loads for squirrel hunting.
Lots of good tough .475 bullets.

I have loaded mine up to 2685 fps with 500 grain Barnes Original RNSP bullets. No pressure signs. Woodleighs should be the same. One grain of powder away from 8000 ft.lbs.

With the Barnes XLC 500 grainer, GSC FN and HV, and new North Fork, even higher velocities are possible, or the good 2500 fps load at even lower pressures, with 500 grainers.

I bought out the estate supply of bullets from a dead .470 NE user. Lots of original Trophy Bonded Sledge hammers (for serious use) and old Barnes Original RNSP's and Woodleigh RNSP's have I for plinking.

I also have a .470 Capstick and a .470 NE, so it is natural for me to have lots of .470 bullets on hand.

In all my wanderings, I have only seen a few boxes of .505 bullets on the shelves. That is a special order item, but should be easier with CZ coming out with the .505 Gibbs.

I like the .500 A2 and have no need for a .505 Gibbs. Others do, but I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
Cost aside, which one would you shoot, and why?

505 Gibbs

Reasons:

1. A rifle in .505 Gibbs will have a much better resale value and a much larger potential market than a wildcat.

2. .505 Gibbs offers greater frontal cross sectional area. It may seem like a small difference, but if you believe that bigger holes are better, .505 Gibbs offers a bigger hole.

what 500grains just said. plus in a proper rifle it can be loaded up with 600 grain bullets at 2300-2400 with no problem

470 mbogo gets my vote.

i hear all the stuff about 505... but haven't ever seen a .505 bullet on a shelf (must lead a sheltered life)

I've seen the 470 in the field.. incredible!!

iirc Dave loads his barnes X at 2500... can you say FREIGHTTRAIN?

FEET of penetration, loads of bullets and makers and moulds...

then, if you decide to sell you, your cost offset from the lifetime of shooting it MORE than offsets the cost of rebarreling into 416 rigby (or restoring the factory barrel) and letting it go down the road.

505 gibbs BRASS is about 3.5 each
you have your CHOICE of Woodliegh bullets... and woodliegh bullets

so, if you have 100 piece of brass... and shot them each 10 times,
505
you could be at about 1500 (brass and bullets)

470..
150 (brass) 900 for bullets...
1050...

and, frankly, you can shoot JACKETED bullets dirt check (50¢) for the 470


cheap bullets mean more practice time... more practice time means better shooting and training, better shooting and training means a better hunt....


jeffe

<heh, gotta get this in, as it is a "pet" bore>

if a 505 has better cross sectional density (.505 -.475 = .30) then think of how MUCH better the 550's will be over the .510s... .40... .45 over a gibbs, and .092 over a 458...


jeffe

Correctomundo thinking, Jeffe, after all the question was which one would you "shoot" eh? Not which one would you buy and sell.

There are more bullets made for the 470, however you do need specialty brass to load. The 500 Jeffery is available as special brass but only needs a standard Mauser rifle to get it done. The others need a magnum Mauser action which is harder to find. Even the equivalent is hard to find. The 500 Jeffery can be made on a Classic Winchester action which can be found anywhere and uses more or less standard Winchester furnishings. Bullets can be had from Woodleigh and GS custom ans well as others. This is not a plinker.It is for serious work.

Magnum mauser actions are easy to find - just call Granite Mountain Arms or Waffenfabrik Hein and they will send you a double square bridge magnum mauser action, new production, ready for the .505 Gibbs.

As to which one is cheaper to shoot, the poster said "cost aside". He did not say "resale value aside".

A bigger hole is a better hole. Except in romance.

while a cz 550 "aint" a mag mauser, it is certainly the 21st century equilavant... and fills that gap well..

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

As to which one is cheaper to shoot, the poster said "cost aside". He did not say "resale value aside".

"Which one would you shoot" also covers which one is most versatile and more "shootable" for all kinds of reasons.

This is not just about "cheap" or "better resale," 500groans, but thank you anyway. Buy a donkey.

The 470 Mbogo will kill better with a 500 grain bullet at 2500 fps than the .505 Gibbs will with its stubby 535 grainer at 2300 fps.

It is a better shooter in all regards except nostalgia and snob appeal, for which I have no time.

Ok, then what would the max OAL and case length be for the 470?

Ron,

1. What does "cost aside" mean?

2. Is your library so bereft of loading data that you are unaware that a .505 can push a 600 grain pill well in excess of 2400 fps?

3. If velocity is the better killer, as you seem to be asserting, then just use a 378 Weatherby.

gixxer,
The Quality Cartridge brass is 2.934" long. Chamber reamer max spec is 2.945".
COL is 3.750". Most of mine seemed to come out about 3.746".

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Ron,

1. What does "cost aside" mean?

2. Is your library so bereft of loading data that you are unaware that a .505 can push a 600 grain pill well in excess of 2400 fps?

3. If velocity is the better killer, as you seem to be asserting, then just use a 378 Weatherby.

1. No consideration of price or cost, assumed to be in monetary terms in common parlance.

2. No, but that is not the classic killer-diller load that the original .505 Gibbs rifles (all 35 of them) made their nostalgic reputation with.

3. You are putting words into my mouth with your insinuation. No single parameter alone is all important.

(And excuse me, that was a 525 grain .505 at 2300fps, not a 535 grain. Got my Jeffery and my Gibbs mixed up.)

World:
500groans likes the .505 Gibbs better than the .470 Mbogo.

Ron and Jeffe favor the .470 Mbogo.

Gixxer asked for some opinions and he got them.
Isn't this special?

www.470mbogo.com

quote:

I have loaded mine up to 2685 fps with 500 grain Barnes Original RNSP bullets. No pressure signs. Woodleighs should be the same. One grain of powder away from 8000 ft.lbs.

As one of my Mexican patients said last week as I was injecting her with lidocaine prior to sewing up a laceration: "Aye, yai yai yai yai ayiiii!"

[Girls, GIRLS! Take it easy!]
I don't have either, and though I've always wanted a 505, just because, I think the 470 Mbogo has a lot going for it. For one, the 470 cal is just plain cool. The 505 is sorta weird.
Also, the Mbogo is one of those "maximum use of space" sort of rounds, that appeals to the cartridge designer in all of us. The 505 is a HUGE, well-tapered case with a monster boltface, and generally too much in my eyes. It would sure be fun to have one, but the Mbogo would come first for shootability, coolness, bullet/brass selection, rounds in the mag, hadn't even considered the ease of rebarreling to 416.
Whichever one you get will certainly serve whatever strange purpose you have in mind, so don't bother too much looking for the "right" one. It's a matter of what floats your boat. If your planning on a DG safari, you might try to figure which one you'd want to carry around, with a realistic load in the chamber (i.e., weight vs recoil.)

505 wins in bullet diametre, nostalgia, classic status and yes pure power if you want to step it up. This is a bit tacky though in a 505, not the done thing.

470 mbogo wins in cheap shooting, ease of finding brass and bullets, can beat the 505gibbs power (assuming crap 505 brass that may not last) and 'looks right' mixing it up with bullets and vels, since it is a wildcat.

That said I would probably get the 505 here for blasting things since we have the reamers standard.


Karl.

I have not shot my 505 yet, but my first two custom rifles are the 416 rigby and 505 gibbs, mostly for nostalgia but there is something about the gibbs that i wanted to experience and that is the shooting of it. There are only a few low pressure, large bore cartridges around and the gibbs is about the only one in bolt action. The cz action fits the gibbs and with the new factory cz, off we go to the races. With 3 sources of brass (2 if mast does not come back), woodleigh, hawk, mt baldy (cast), a^2, barnes (out of production), handloading components are readily available. And if i ever make it to africa and loose luggage, i bet i can find 505 gibbs cartridges to shoot.

rgrds,

steve

I know of one gentleman who has pushed 600 grains at 2500 fps in the Gibbs, although it was not a pleasant experience. Nor would such activity be recommended when using a vintage rifle or Bertram brass. But with Horneber brass it can be done.

Jeffe is correct that the next step up is the 550 Magnum with it's nifty 700 grain pill.

For those who are still not satisfied, there is the 577 Tyrannosaur and 585 nyati pusing 750 grain slugs at 2400 fps, or more if you dare.

And for he who remains dissatisfied with the power levels being achived, the .600 overkill offers 900 grains at 2400 fps.

Beyond that threshold wise men do not tread.

To Hell with choosing between the two. I'll take one of each.

I'd bet dollars to donuts you cannot now nor would ever be able to tell any difference in any of the forementioned calibers in how well they kill big ugly mean animals, they are all close to overkill in the first place...

I know that I personally cannot tell any difference in any of the 40 and over calbibers I have used and that includes 416, 404, 458 Lott, 450-400-3" and 3-1/4" 505 Gibbs, and a few others, they all typically hit the bull, he runs about 50 to 75 yards or more and goes down..sometimes less, sometimes more. I am even inclined to add the .375 to that list????????

...and therefore,
tally one more for the 470!

Only a few weeks ago we had somebody asking for recommendations for the best "stopper", regardless of weight. I didn't feel compelled to post, so I didn't, but at the time, I thought, the best "stopper" is a centerpunch brain shot with any decent caliber. Even the .303 Enfield had a good reputation for this, because the jacket was so thick on the military load (?), that it would go through practically anything.

Put another way, you can't make up for mistakes of placement with caliber....

You all know what I think: .505 Gibbs is on the verge of off-the-rack boxed ammunition, but the price is going to be high, even for reloads. It's a darn shame the bullet diameter is not .510", a bore diameter both Jeffe and Rip own. Me too, but I am not expecting .51 Gibbs to be a production caliber tomorrow.

Seems to me what is needed is strong Pedersoli doubles in .50-90 or .50-140-700-3.25"?

In a world of off the rack .505 Gibbs rifles and readily available factory loaded ammo, I can't even see why this is a debate! COSTS ASIDE...for me, convenience is king! Considering costs, think about what will happen to the price of .505 ammo as soon as the CZ rifles start to gain popularity. You will likely see more producers of both ammo and components driving prices down even as demand for the products themselves increases. As an example, think about what .416 Rem Mag ammo or brass might have cost before the calibre was truly popular. Now I can buy HSM ammo in .416 Rem, loaded with either softs or solids, for about $35 per box. The same thing will happen with the .505 once the CZs start to gain widespread acceptance. Manufacturers will have the opportunity to make their money more on volume rather than margin.
As for the debate over the relative efficacy of these rounds....well, that is all just "blackboard hunting". Both rounds will kill with authority.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

.416 Rigby ammo is still well over $100 per box of 20 from Federal.

The .505 Gibbs will never be as "in demand" as the .416 Rigby. .505 Gibbs ammo will unlikely be cheaper than .416 Rigby.

I prefer my handloads no matter how "cheap" the factory stuff.

505 gibbs is 98 bucks for 5...

same as 500 jeffery, from WR...

20 rounds is an INVESTMENT....


i bet superior ammo would load mbogo for ya, though.. and they "only" want 250 bucks for 20 rounds of 470 NE"

jeffe

I use a .505 with 570 & 600 grain bullets.
Game reaction on cape buffalo is all one could hope for. With that, even with 600 grain bullets, the case is unnecessarily large. The Jeffery case is much better proportioned for .50 caliber except that darn rebated rim bothers me. The .500 AHR also approximates the ideal capacity and has a proper rim but, as far as I know, is available only in Bertram brass. If one could get Horneber brass in .500 AHR, that may be the way to go (.510" bullets). I must say, the .470 Mbogo is very much the perfect case for caliber, in a bolt action rifle. A very well thought out design and I'm certain, a highly effective DG round.

Kimber made .505's 12 yeras ago when there was a lot more interest in big bores in the hsooting public. Did not see much .505 ammo on the shelf at WalMart. Don't plan on seeing just a whole lot more these days. It is one of the "niche-est" of niche markets. Prices will be in the stratosphere and supply very, very limited.

I will cast a vote for the 470 Mbogo. I am biased, though, since I own one and since Dave is a great friend!

If I had the $$$, I would have a 505 Gibbs too.

Even without cost as a factor, if you made me pick one and only one, I would stick with the 470 Mbogo. What its lacking in nostalgia it more than makes up for in practical advantages.

Cheers,
Canuck

If cost is no object, then availability is no object. Same goes for ammo. If I have to buy a CNC lathe to keep me supplied with monometal solids, cost is no object. The 505.

H. C.

Well, beings that Mast Tech is no longer the proud owner of Bell ammo(and who knows when the new owner of Bell will begin cranking out new brass for that matter), they are selling off what stock of brass they have left. Noticed a fair price for 404 and 416 rigby basic brass, might have to buy up a bunch and see where the wife lets me take it. Havent found the measurements of the Gibbs case, but my guess is something worked off of the rigby basic would work too.

I'd go with the 505 Gibbs...Its a bigger boy..and CZ is coming out with a rifle in that caliber and I suspect Federal will make ammo for it...It has a better future than the Mbogo IMO.....I have shot a few buffalo with the 458 Lott, Ackley and the 505 Gibbs, but couldn't tell a lot of differnce in any of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I'd go with the 505 Gibbs...Its a bigger boy..and CZ is coming out with a rifle in that caliber and I suspect Federal will make ammo for it...It has a better future than the Mbogo IMO.....I have shot a few buffalo with the 458 Lott, Ackley and the 505 Gibbs, but couldn't tell a lot of differnce in any of them.

Someone stole Ray's password...

i KNOW it/s not him

This guy posted he would take the harder kicking round!!

jeffe

jeffe,

I think it is just because he and the 505 Gibbs hail from the same era and the 470 Mbogo is just a young upstart, still wet behind the web (?).



Canuck

ps: am I the only guy here that doesn't seem to give two hoots what the future of a cartridge is? am I stoopid for not basing my choices on re-sale value? once I buy a rifle I like, i don't plan on selling it, and could care less what it adds to my estate when I am gone.

Chris,
ray was standing around on rock, holding a gibbs, waiting for dirt to be invented...!!!

jeffe

No offense to the 470 Mbogo owners, but I'd take the 505 hands down. It is a classic, shoots bigger bullets, and has a bigger case if'n I had sadistic urge to drive 600 gr bullets to 2400+.

If I was looking for a more practicle choice with componet availability, then I'd go with the 458 Lott or 450 Rigby (I know, not asked in the original post)

I have a 458 Lott and a 500 Jeffrey, I think that covers the big bores well enough, if I had it to over today, I'd replace the 500 Jeffrey with a 500 A-sq, or a 550 Magnum.

Yep,
The 500 A-Square will make 600 grainers go +2400fps easily.

Hi Gents,
I'm a little bias and will stick with the 470 Mbogo. It is a very nicely balanced cartridge that offers good sectional density, exellent trajectory combined with a good cross sectional area. The biggest surprise is penetration beyond what the sectional density etc would indicate. I think that everyone that has shot and played around with the Mbogo would attest to the penetration capability.
The 505 is a great round in it's own but to have the same penetration you have to handload with heavier bullets which in turn effects the shootability of the cartridge. With the regular loadings for both cartridges pressure is not an issue. You can use fireformed 416 Rigby brass in a pinch to make 470 Mbogo cartridges but the necks will be a bit shorter. I haven't fired enough brass formed in this manner to see how much the neck will grow after ten or twelve reloads but it will work.
With either rifle make sure you have a well designed stock with a good recoil pad and a wieght of 10 to 10.5 lbs.
Take good care,
Dave

Bah. What do you know about it.