Now that I have started reloading, need to think about a chronograph. What do folks think in terms of the best value for the money? Not interested in spending a fortune just want to get something that is easy to set up and use and accurate. Seems like if you really want to do the reloads right you just about have to have a chronograph -- or am I mistaken?

It's not a necessity but nice to have, an eye opener for sure. I have had one since they used to use paper screens, man am I old. If you can still get an Oehler, do so. It will never let you down. Others have had luck w/ the Chrony, Pact (I have one of those but it's screens are spotty), etc.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Now that I have started reloading, need to think about a chronograph. What do folks think in terms of the best value for the money? Not interested in spending a fortune just want to get something that is easy to set up and use and accurate. Seems like if you really want to do the reloads right you just about have to have a chronograph -- or am I mistaken?

No, you're not mistaken... you can load all the loads listed in all loading books and probably not come up with a match in your individual gun.

Yes, you NEED a chronograph to give you some measurable idea of what's going on with YOUR loads in YOUR gun.

Get an Oehler if you can find one - I hear they're no longer making the 35P?

Mike,
we can use mine, if you want to take me to the range...

the 39$ super cheapy is the best to get first
jeffe

Works for me, let me know when you are read to make a run. Perhaps I can even get you to fire the first couple of reloads just to make sure I did them right.

By "super cheapy" I presume you are referring to the Chrony F1?

I've always been curious. Exactly WHAT does a Chrony do for you. Does it tell you the load is excessive. Does it tell you the load is inaccurate. What do you do if the speed is NOT what you want. How WRONG are the tables in the manuals. I'm rather ignorent on these things and really would like to know. As you probably guessed I've never used one.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I've always been curious. Exactly WHAT does a Chrony do for you. Does it tell you the load is excessive. Does it tell you the load is inaccurate. What do you do if the speed is NOT what you want. How WRONG are the tables in the manuals. I'm rather ignorent on these things and really would like to know. As you probably guessed I've never used one.

It gives you a few indicators. One of course is speed, you now you shouldn't be exceeding the volicity of the max load no matter the charge. With the right velocity you can lok up your bullet drop and energy levels for that load. It is also easier to match loads between different powder lots as well.

It can also give standard deviation (some compute this automatically). The more consistant the velocity, the more likely the charge to be accurate.

John

zim,

Just one example.

More than once, I've backed off the maximum powder charge listed in a manual by the prescribed 10%, loaded up some ammo, and chronographed it, only to find that the "reduced" load, in my rifle, was nearly as fast as the book-listed maximum!

Without a chrono, you're really just feeling around in the dark.

I can understand that but other than reducing the cost minutely what difference did it make. The final analysis is does the load shoot accurately and is there no sign of overpressure.
The question remains are the books reasonably aaccurate. My belief is they are or the pproducers woud be liable to large lawsuits.

zim, a chrono isn't required. You can go your entire shooting life thinking my load does this or that, or you can KNOW exactly what your load is doing @ 100deg or 0deg.
A chrono can make you a better handloader or drive you crazy depends on you. SOme powder/primer combos give more concistent results than others, you won't ultimately know this w/o the chrono. Accuracy is always the goal, but I like fast & accurate. It's frustrating to use a load in the manual & find out in your rifle you are 150fps short. But at least you know where you're at. It's kind of like driving w/o a speedometer, you can move along w/ everyone else or know how fast you are going.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I can understand that but other than reducing the cost minutely what difference did it make. The final analysis is does the load shoot accurately and is there no sign of overpressure.
The question remains are the books reasonably aaccurate. My belief is they are or the pproducers woud be liable to large lawsuits.

Zim-The fundamental principe that's not been stated here is that pressure and velocity are related... Very few individuals have a reliable means of measuring pressure (the equipment is too expensive).

The chronograph is not too expensive... and although not designed to measure pressure, its velocity readings, can (and do) give you an idea of the pressure being generated by a load (relative to a published velocity and a measured pressure).

If you can't measure pressure and you can't measure velocity, how do you know if the load is safe? By looking at the primer? Things have changed since 1940 and better tools are available for safe reloading; the chronograph is the most economical one.

If one is NOT concerned with pressure or safety, then that's correct... one doesn't NEED a chronograph... Just keep adding powder until it shoots the way one likes... with no indication of velocity or pressure???

I bought my first chrono back in 82, it is a Tepeco which had sky screens but used a book to convert the reading from time to velocity. Learned real quick how "optimistic" factory ammo is velocity wise. Also learned that many 30/06 loads were closer to 308 loads and if I wanted a 308, I would not have an "06. I learned that many of the manuals published after the 80's are very liability conscious and very optimistic about true velocity in many cases. Also learned, from my own limited testing, that the disclaimer about velocity differing widely between guns of the same chambering is generally overstated if the barrels are not shot out. Had the joys of seeing standard deviation on a good load being consistantley less than 10 fps . Also learned what we always suspected, that Weatherbys advertised velocities back in the 70's-80"s were totally Blue sky, 180 gr. @3400 my ass! Chrono's are great tools and Myth busters of the magnum maniacs. My .02.

I always thought that the only correct measurement for over pressure (short of a pressure barrel)is appearance and miking case expansion. Are there tables to equate pressure rise with increase in velocity? Or is it a formula like so many psi increase for so many fps increase? I hardly ever load to max book values in any case. I have NEVER exceeded the max book load in any case EVER. I keep my loading library up to date also and never use old manuals. That's why I'm a little leary of A-Square and older Ackley loads. To tell the truth I'm not much of an experimenter with loads. I weigh EVERY charge on a digital scale and don't try to see how many loads I can get out of a case.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I can understand that but other than reducing the cost minutely what difference did it make. The final analysis is does the load shoot accurately and is there no sign of overpressure.
The question remains are the books reasonably aaccurate. My belief is they are or the pproducers woud be liable to large lawsuits.

I doubt a chronograph is of any use to a pure hunter. If the gun goes bang and the bullet lands at the appropiate point on the target with roughly the intended energy then you have no need for futher information. The reloading manuals will take you that far with complete reliability.

Chronos are for people who have a technical interest beyond the bare needs listed above. They don't make you a better shot, a better stalker and they aren't necessary to make you a safer handloader. Some of us find it interesting, even fun to use one (even though my life with guns would be just dandy if I had never bought one).

Mostly they are a tool for the amateur or professional ballistician.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Are there tables to equate pressure rise with increase in velocity?

Zim, think of it this way.

A reloading book (with pressure info) is a benchmark for your load. It gives X amount of powder, pushing X bullet, at X velocity, at or near maximimum allowable pressure (measured with copper-crusher or piezo transducer).

With that combination (in any gun so chambered) X velocity will still equal X pressure... the variable (related to your individual gun) is how much powder is needed to get your gun to shoot the load at X velocity and subsequently X pressure.

Each gun is different, some need more powder to reach "X velocity"... some need less. If you don't know how fast the load is going in your gun, then you're only guessing at velocity which means you're only guessing at pressure.

First the reloading manuals can´t be trusted, I have yet to find a load that duplicates what is said in a manual, when following all steps of handloading correctly using the manual and even considering having right barrel lenght, primer, twist and so on. I feel a chrono is a must. Otherwise you can only guess what velocity your cartridge is giving. In sighting in for hunting I find it very important to know velocity to be able to shoot my rifle correctly at different distances. And now I am also able to calculate the energy.
Today I have a Chrony which works very well. Before I had a Pro-chrono which also was good until i managed to shoot right through the mechanism. Why I now took Chrony was because it is made of metal, so it doesn´t fall when it is blowing little outside. The Pro-Chrony was all plastic and fell almost always, very irritating in the long run. So my advice is Chrony.

Thanks all for the enlightment but I think I will continue as I have for the last 54 years. Since according to some the books can't be trusted to be correct and since others say to use the book values as ones to try to duplicate with the chrono and others say that amount of powder may or may not produce a given book velocity in your gun the whole thing seems to be a crapshoot and to me a waste of time.

Best value for the money- a Chrony! Best chronograph- an Oehler........

quote:

Originally posted by jmk:
First the reloading manuals can´t be trusted, I have yet to find a load that duplicates what is said in a manual, when following all steps of handloading correctly using the manual and even considering having right barrel lenght, primer, twist and so on. I feel a chrono is a must. Otherwise you can only guess what velocity your cartridge is giving. In sighting in for hunting I find it very important to know velocity to be able to shoot my rifle correctly at different distances. And now I am also able to calculate the energy.

Well to play devil's advocate I would say that knowing the drop of your particular load at 350, 400, 500 and 600 yards is useless information if you don't practice religiously at those ranges. And a big game animal does not suffer needlessly for the lack or surplus of 75 feet per second in velocity which is the average deviation from printed loading data (usually on the short side).

OTOH, if you practice religiously at those ranges you will know the exact drop at each from experience, in which case chrono data is redundant.

I would say if you need chrono data to shoot well at different distances, you need to shoot your rifle(s) a lot more.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Thanks all for the enlightment but I think I will continue as I have for the last 54 years. Since according to some the books can't be trusted to be correct and since others say to use the book values as ones to try to duplicate with the chrono and others say that amount of powder may or may not produce a given book velocity in your gun the whole thing seems to be a crapshoot and to me a waste of time.

well, see, Zimby, what you read in a manual is how a particular load worked in the particular gun the manual publisher used. This, however, is not a valid indicator of how that load is going to perform in yours, since all guns are individuals. You can certainly tell whether a particular load is accurate in your gun, and have at least some indication whether it is safe or not, too. And, if you have access to a range that is long enough, you can put targets out at all practical ranges, say up to maybe 600 yards or so, and determine the practical trajectory of your selected load, too.

But if you have some desire to find out just exactly what kind of velocity you are getting from a given powder charge, bullet brand (last year I chronographed some different 175-grain bullets in a 7mm Rem. Mag. Different brands, same bullet weight, same bullet diameter, same powder charge, cases and primers-200 FPS difference between them in MV!!) primer type, seating depth, etc. etc., or if you must know the MV in order to calculate downrange performance (say, you only have a little ol' 200-yard range or something), you can't find it out any other way than with a chronograph! (There is NO CHART or formula that would allow you to predict MV based on max. pressure! Why? Because max pressure can be greater in a given situation, and still produce LESS velocity! For instance, I can load your .30/'06 with a charge of a powder like Bullseye, and blow it to pieces without the bullet ever leaving the muzzle! Extreme example, I admit, but you get the point!!)

Likewise, I kinda want to know the velocity I'm getting from my 12-bore Jaeger rifle with a 597.5 grain ball and 200 grains of Swiss FFg....

If you could care less about any of this, then DON'T buy a chronograph.....

Hi tiggertate, no I don´t use the Chrony as an excuse to practise less. All the contrary, in my case anyhow I practise a lot more. Because it always fun to try new bullets, weights and powders and primers and even brass. So as a result of having a Chrony I shoot around 3 000 - 4 000 cartridges loaded by myself per year. And I am certain this is because of the experimenting gives me more opportunities to shoot and have fun at the range.

I used my chrono religiously for years, I used to shoot and do load development at least twice a week. The only manual that was ever close, and it was VERY close, was "Pet Loads" by Ken Waters. Absolutely the best book there is, in my opinion. He also used rifles of all sorts, not 30" match chambered test barrels. real world data from a man with impeccable credentials.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Best value for the money- a Chrony! Best chronograph- an Oehler........

I agree, my Chrony works great, but the cheapass under-engineered screen set up can be a monumental pain in the can. Try chronying a large bore rifle fairly close and you'll see what I mean.

The enclosed manual needs a alot of spit & polish too.

quote:

Originally posted by jmk:
Hi tiggertate, no I don´t use the Chrony as an excuse to practise less. All the contrary, in my case anyhow I practise a lot more. Because it always fun to try new bullets, weights and powders and primers and even brass. So as a result of having a Chrony I shoot around 3 000 - 4 000 cartridges loaded by myself per year. And I am certain this is because of the experimenting gives me more opportunities to shoot and have fun at the range.

I like mine too, just stressing the point that they are more fun than necessity. For someone like Jeffe who is developing a new wildcat(s) to match the ballistics of a traditional round it would be essential equipment. For me it's an experimentor's toy.

If you use anything over a 30-06 look careful at the Oehler p35. I got as Chrony Beta master or was it a masta bater, anyway it was very particular about it's light. If it was slightly cloudy it worked fine. Full sun, no #'s. Full clouds, no #'s. Too shallow an angle to the sun, no #'s. I Got the p 35 and always get #'s. I am reminded of my mom's words about the rich. She said the rich save money. They don't have to spend as much money as the rest of us. They buy the best the first time. The penny pinchers among us buy the cheapest first, buy mid grade next and if they really want a decent piece of equipment eventually buy the best. Having spent twice what the rich boy bought in the first place.

If you have no chronograph you have no real idea what your loads are doing. I had one load in my 375 that shot well at 100 yards and by the book said almost 2700 fps. In my rifle it only was doing 2400 and change. I needed a new load and didn't know it. Get one it will be a new world. D

Call Oehler in Austin and cry and beg for a 35. It will open a new universe to you. The chrono will give you a print out of your shot string of high, low, extreme spread,mean velocity and standard deviation. You will know if a load has potential, even if you didn't shoot particularly well, if it has a low standard deviation. Further it shows you a consistent load, which is what you want for good accuracy.