I shot a buffalo last Friday. A 1600 pound American Bison bull, to be exact. No wet newspaper, no ballistic gelatin, no penetration box. An honest to goodness real world meat and bone large live animal test. I shoot one every year for the freezer and to check out the Sharps.

This year I used one of my Shilohs in 45-70. At 84 yards,the bullet hit behind the shoulder about 1/4 of the way up from the bottom of the brisket. The bull was on the ground and dead in about 5 seconds, maybe a shade less. It was the fastest kill on a body shot I have ever witnessed--the ranch manager said it was one of the two fastest kills he had ever seen other than a head shot.

The bullet was a cast 480 grain flat nosed bullet at 20-1 at 1249 fps over my Oehler 35P. The bullet passed completely through, and was not recovered. It hit a rib going in, went through both lungs, and punched a perfectly round hole the size of a nickel in a rib going out. There was a hematoma the size of your fist under the skin on the entrance wound and a hematoma the size of a soccer ball under the skin at the exit hole. All in all, about four feet of penetration and a dead buffalo before we could stand up.

Works for me.

84 yards? I've seen you shoot.. it might as well have been PB!

jeffe

jeffe--I ain't proud--I'll take 'em where I can get 'em. Actually, when you're on the ground on foot that close to about 200 head, it gets your attention.

What make bullet did the job?

Great Sharpsguy! Congrats! I did the same thing a couple of years ago in South Dakota, honest to god two great bison bulls real world flesh and bone! I too was doing a live animal test with 45/70, 1886 Winchester loaded with a cast bullet from 420 grNorth Star at a tad over 1800 fps, a small bullet caster at the time. I figured going all the way to South Dakota and it being -33 degrees (not wind chill) I might as well shoot two of them! Of course I did test in test medium before going, wet newsprint of course, in one of my penetration boxes. Funny how things work out, bullets performed as expected, both on live honest to god animal flesh and in that wet newsprint! Of course my first bison took some killing! The second gave up a little easier. Both between 30-40 yds. But all good fun regardless. Might have to consider going back for another two soon, already ate all of the first two. Best burgers I ever had! Next two I think will be with one of my 50 B&M Alaskan M71s!

Michael

jro45--The bullet was one I cast myself from a Lyman 457121 mold. It is 1.215" long with seven grease grooves and a nose that has a nearly imperceptible curve that leads to a meplat .270 in diameter. It is the old Loverin bullet. It will cycle through my lever Marlin 1895 Cowboy and shoots really well in it. I have used the bullet out to 1000 yards in Creedmoor competition in my 45-110 Sharps, and it defies all theory and logic in that venue.

The flat nose is not supposed to work at extended range, but this bullet requires 2 1/2 minutes LESS elevation at 1000 yards than my 540 grain Jones Creedmoor bullet. It is the closest thing to a true all around bullet I have seen. Sort of ugly looking in a cartridge belt, but it flat out works.

Michael458--I have never shot anything when it was THAT cold, but it was 20 degrees here in East Texas when I rolled out that morning, tying a record set it 1884. We had light snow flurries during the hunt, and the ranch manager joked that it was like shooting one in Yellowstone.

I had previously used round nosed bullets in the 500 to 525 grain range for hunting in the Sharps, and have always enjoyed excellent penetration. I have never recovered a bullet from game with the Sharps, even in Africa. I shot an impala on the Eastern Cape with this particular bullet in 2008 and shot through him on a diagonal for 30 inches of penetration, but had never used it on a large animal. It blows through deer and hogs like they are tissue paper.

Based on this, and the damage done, I am seriously thinking of using this bullet for Cape Buffalo with the Sharps in 2011.

Sharps

Well that day was -33 degrees ambient air temp, wind chill was -53 degrees. This was a ranch shoot too, not much hunting, suits me, I went to shoot anyway. It was basically jump out of the heated truck and go to work, quickly as possible. During photos my wife could not take them and messed up the entire batch it was so cold. If it had not been for some of the photos our guy that was with us took I would not have had any. It was wicked cold!

Oh I think the bullet you are using will be fine and give you all the penetration you need to shoot any sort of bovine you want. I shot a buff with 45/70 in 2002, 420 Cast performance in a guide gun. I had all the penetration needed, but not much real knockout power behind it. Dead buffalo, but I always felt like it came up a bit on the short end. But fun it was! Just make damn sure that first shot is good to go, then no worries from there. Of course I understand you are quite the long range shooter, so you should not have any issues at all in that department at buffalo ranges! Me, hell I can't see further than 50 yards anyway!

Keep us posted.

Still have to get out and shoot a couple more bison, missing those burgers!

Michael

sharpsguy,
I close friend shot a 3 year old bull (no doubt smaller than yours) on the 6th with his Shiloh Sharps 45-70... Same experience as yours and the ranch manager said he has never seen so much blood..
This year my friend used a 500gr RN WW/PB 50/50 for 8 BHN on my tester at around 1400fps using BP with a smokeless kicker.. He endowed a black bear this spring with the same load...

Then my 486 gr out of a lee mould at 1380 well just be the ticket for my next hog hunt in TX.

The ruger number 3 I have is nice and handy for the brush.

pds--It will work. I used to drive them around 1360 to 1390 out of my 45-110 with black powder, but have slowed them down a bit. My 45-70 penetrates as well or better with the same bullets and works at 1220 to 1250 with black powder. It also kicks a lot less.

sharpsguy,
Good work!
Thanks for some interesting reading.
20:1 alloy, 480-grain plain-base-FN with 7 grease grooves ... lubed with what, and blackpowder charge is what?

Did you hit the heart or great vessels over the heart, or does a mere double-lung work that well with your bullet?

I have shot a couple of bison, last one same size as yours, but with a .509/570-grain Barnes XLC at 2350 fps impact at 50 yards.
Double lung, across the chest and did not exit. Nor did the bison die as fast as yours.
In fact, it ran off and I hit it in the Texas Heart with a GSC FN 570-grainer at about 2300 fps at 75 yards.
Only then did it go down.


I will use a Pedersoli Sharps with a bullet similar to yours on my next bison.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

RIP--The bullet was lubed with a dedicated black powder lube, Black Magic. The normal powder charge is 66 grains of 3f blackpowder in a Remington case. Understand that this is a heavily compressed charge, pre compressed with a compression die before the bullet is seated. I have been loading and shooting it for several years.

This PARTICULAR load was loaded with 37 grains of Blackhorn 209 and a Federal 215 primer in a Starline case. I rarely shoot anything other than black powder, but Black Dawge Cartridges asked me to work up a blackpowder equivalent velocity load for their new line of Vintage Cartridges, and this was the result of that effort. This ammo as well as a 450 grain and 535 grain version are now at the lab being pressure tested.

The idea is to work up a viable load that is non-corrosive and accurate that duplicates the look--read smoke--for use in vintage rifles for folks that don't want to load their own. There will be other calibers to follow.

That load works really well in a Pedersoli, BTW.

The buffalo was double lunged. He was not heart shot and died quicker than the two that I have heart shot with round nosed bullets.

77gr is all in a 45-2 7/8ths case? I compress about .150" and get 75 in my 45-2 4/10ths using Starline brass. I shoot a Brooks 520gr RFN out of 20:1 at about 1280. Are you coming to Quigley next year?

Rich

I'm not sure what you mean by this post.

Didn't thousands of buffalo hunters prove that this could be done by killing millions of American buffalo with .45-70 single shot rifles back in the 1870s?

It is beyond doubt that the .45-70 does indeed work on the American buffalo.

Were you trying to make a more general point?

What?? You didn't have 5,000 ft-lbs of ME? I don't believe you actually killed that bison!

Nice work, Bill! Congratulations!

Surely this isn't a round about way of saying the 45-70 would work well in Africa

Idaho Sharps Shooter--This was a 45-70, not a 45 2 7/8. Was your reference to 77 grains a typo? I never shoot 77 grains of any powder in any caliber I have. I normally run 100 to 106 grains in the 45 2 7/8, depending on the bullet.

I have no plans to go to Quigley this year. For the three grand it costs me to make that trip from Texas and stay gone for two weeks, I'll use the money to go back to Africa.

No surprise to me, although the quickness of kill IS impressive. I have seen water buffalo that heavy taken with a 30-30 expending only one or two shots. The big bovines ain't, by any stretch of the imagination, bullet proof.

mrlexma--I don't know that I am trying to make a particular point, but. I am simply sharing the results of my loads and rifles on game in different venues, and my bullets and velocities certainly run against the current trend.

Having said that, I have noticed that ON ANIMALS, what I have been doing for the last 30 odd years seems to put them ON THE GROUND as well or better than a lot of rifles and loads that have a lot better numbers on paper.

As I named the thread, it is simply Food for Thought.

sharpsguy,
It just makes me sick that I sold my Shiloh 45-70 LRE after reading this. I bet you had a lot of fun.
Butch

mrlexma,

The bison were wiped out by 45-100, 45-110, and 50-90 cartridges not 45-70. Not that there is a huge paper ballistics difference, by today's standards anyway.

I know a gent who has killed cape buffalo with a 7.62X39 Soviet too. Seen a good sized bison bull taken with two shots from a 30-30 also. Seen a smallish bison cow take 5 hard cast (440 gr I believe) 45-70 hits in the boiler room from a M1886 also. That tough ass little cow didn't go down for several minutes either. Seen bison bulls absorb 8 rounds from a 300 WM and take 45 minutes to die (more than once). Seen an average sized bison cow take three solids hits from a 458 WM before also (all pass throughs) and I still had to finish her for the hunter about ten minutes after he "gave up". Seen water buff taken with a 12 slug gun (sabots the wasp waisted ones) although none of those died in 5 seconds, more like a 30 seconds to a minute, they still died.

What does it all mean?

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Seen bison bulls absorb 8 rounds from a 300 WM and take 45 minutes to die (more than once). Seen an average sized bison cow take three solids hits from a 458 WM before also (all pass throughs) and I still had to finish her for the hunter about ten minutes after he "gave up". Seen water buff taken with a 12 slug gun (sabots the wasp waisted ones) although none of those died in 5 seconds, more like a 30 seconds to a minute, they still died.

What does it all mean?

You know, not long ago I took a lot of flack for recommending the 45-70 over a 300 WM for American bison, you would have thought I said Jesus was gay. For some reason, big holes make bison fall pretty fast. I would bet that the 458 with soft points would have been better than solids, but bison are like timex watches.

John

sharpsguy:

PM sent about bullet. Thanks.

Bill

Cngradulations

The 45-70 keeps on keeping on

jwp475--Thanks. I think that loaded correctly, the 45-70 is one of the most effective cartridges going on game. It doesn't take 1800 fps and a monometal bullet to get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
This PARTICULAR load was loaded with 37 grains of Blackhorn 209 and a Federal 215 primer in a Starline case. I rarely shoot anything other than black powder, but Black Dawge Cartridges asked me to work up a blackpowder equivalent velocity load for their new line of Vintage Cartridges, and this was the result of that effort.

I got Blackhorn and plenty of F-215s to burn.
Smokin'!

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Glad you had a great hunt Bill. Congratulations. Yeah I've seen you shoot as well. 84 yards? that's more my league! I'll call you in a day or so. Cheers, jorge

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
jwp475--Thanks. I think that loaded correctly, the 45-70 is one of the most effective cartridges going on game. It doesn't take 1800 fps and a monometal bullet to get the job done.

Is that the flat point that you just had designed?

jwp475--No, I didn't design the bullet. It is an old Lyman design that was designed--I believe--around the late 1890's. It was originally called the Loverin as I understand that was the name of the man who designed it. I would love to take credit for it, but I can't.

Lyman discontinued it 10 or 15 years ago for a time, then brought it back out to be used in the Parker-Hale Whitworth and Pedersoli Gibbs long range target muzzleloaders. They currently call it the 457121PH, the PH standing for Parker-Hale. It comes from the mold at .4565 to facilitate loading in these match grade muzzleloaders. Not to worry, it loads and shoots beautifully in my Marlin, my all my Shiloh Sharps, my several Pedersolis, and a couple of original Remington rollers without leading.

I discovered it a number of years ago when I was looking for a bullet that would occupy a lot of space in a 45-110 cartridge case as a means of reducing recoil, both from the perspective of less powder and lighter bullet weight. I was really surprised at how well it shot in the 45-110, and found that it killed like lightning on deer and hogs.

I didn't start using it in a 45-70 until about 18 months ago when I was looking for a bullet heavier than 400 grains that would cycle through my 1895 Marlin. Experimenting, I found that I could get 66 grains of 3f blackpowder HEAVILY COMPRESSED with a compression die in a Remington case with this bullet. When I chronographed it, I found that it went 1250 fps over my Oehler 35P.

I promptly shot a couple of feral hogs with it using the Marlin, and saw what a good penetrator/ killer it was, and began to use it in my 45-70 Sharps.

Another benefit of the bullet--and this is huge-- is that the first shot out of a clean barrel with a Sharps using blackpowder and this bullet will go to the SAME POINT OF IMPACT as subsequent shots. This is the main reason I shoot paper patched ammo in the Sharps, as the first shot with paper patched bullets goes in the group. The flatnosed Lyman 457121 is the only grease grooved bullet I have found that puts the first one in the same hole as the others, and as we are all aware, this is a must with a hunting load in a rifle.

I have found it to be accurate from the end of my barrel out to 1000 yards. I competed in Creedmoor for a while and was going to use this bullet at Raton in my 45-110 in 2005, but the NRA changed the weight requirement for the bullet to 510 grains in a 45 three weeks before the match, so I was unable to use it AFTER about 6 months of testing at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. I was amazed at how well it shot and got through the wind. The 540 grain Jones Creedmoor bullet I wound up using was not nearly as accurate as the 457121, and required an additional 2 1/2 minutes of elevation at 1000 yards.

If this bullet has a drawback, it is that ammo loaded with it is ugly and doesn't look worth a darn in a cartridge belt.