Would it be fair and realistic to say that at most one third (33%) of all hunters are well informed and fully aware (and using them) of all the benefits arising from the use of modern monolithic bullets - both HV and FN types?

Since these premium grade bullets are available for quite some time already on the market and the benefits in using them being made widely known, why is it that such a low percentage of all hunters prefer to use them?

Lastly, are hunters aware of the dangers of lead poisoning resulting from the use of conventional jacketed lead bullets?

1: no, see 2, then divide by TEN, or more. of this number, only probably 5% of them (vanishingly small) actually are well informed of WHY mono's are better, the rest are just told that they are cool, or see recovered pics of barnes X bullets

2: we have a shooting store here, called "Carter's country" which is one of the largest there is in the area, and until recently, what 2 or 3 times the size of the next biggest hunting store. (there's 4 total carter's stores) ... walk in, look at the reloading area... mind you, this is from a store with HUNDREDS of shelf feet of ammo,.. there's probably 1/4 as much dedicated to reloading.

of the loaded ammo (this is still the vast majority of shooters) less than 10% is premium bullets loaded.


of the reloading components, the better bullets, barnes, swift, nosler parts, bear claw, etc, make up MAYBE, combined, 1/2 as much as the single long row of red hornady boxes.

3: in all honesty, I would bet there are more "people" aware of the POTENTIAL for lead contamination from conventional bullets than are aware of the wonders of monmetal bullets. There's two ranges in houston that require "no exposed lead".. but that means FMJs, not monos.

To answer briefly,
1: no, i doubt 1/2 of 1% are fully aware OF mono bullets, probably 1/10 of that use them in a regular fashion, and less than that know WHY they are better.

2: barnes (and other monos) probably don't make 1% of reloading bullets sold in the states. that is probably the .05%/10/10 as above. I don't use mono bullets are a REGULAR hunting/shooting/plinking bullet, nor do I know anyone who plans to use them, if they shoot alot.

3: "lead poisoning" is largely a tool of the anti's here

Jagter,

actually, most of us eat the things we shoot...so an expanding bullet is best. Also some states in the US forbid the use of FMJ bullets, a throwback to the days of surplus military ammuntion being sold.

IMHO, which IS my humble opinion; the monometal/solid bullet is a "two steps forward, two steps backward" answer to a question nobody asked. Hunting rifles of today do not step up in twist ratio to take advantage of the increased length, and older ones are often not capable of stabilizing them properly. That is Dan's arguement here, and sometimes valid one.

The real answer you are looking for is: most hunters that hunt Africa are not reloaders, they buy a rifle and a couple boxes of factory ammuntiuon, go to Africa, hunt, harvest game cleanly, and return home...especially if the have a double rifle. Load testing a double rifle is one of the great oxymorons of this forum.

Most just do not care.

regards,

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS

Certain types of monolithic bullets also expand (mushroom) and on top of that they don't spread deadly lead particles in that meat you eat!

A shorter bullet will fit the twist rate and at a higher velocity will yield the same results as the heavier FMJ - that's to say if you use a premium grade monolithic.
Weight is no longer important in bullet choice - rather size (length) of the bullet.

About the bad part of lead -

quote:

HawkWatch -
Hunting and fishing result in the deposition of thousands of tons of lead into the North American environment every year. While foraging, wildlife species can be exposed to lead and may die of lead poisoning. Such mortalities have been documented in a wide array of birds including waterfowl, shorebirds, piscivores, songbirds, and raptors. Poisoning of California Condors, Common Loons, Trumpeter Swans, and Bald Eagles is of special concern because it may have population-level effects.


Recent research reveals that legislation banning the use of lead shot in waterfowl hunting has reduced the amount of waterfowl lead poisoning and the extent of Bald Eagle lead poisoning. Such declines demonstrate that switching to nontoxic shot can protect wildlife populations and improve the environment.

Similar regulations are being established to minimize lead deposition associated with upland game hunting and fishing. Available alternatives provide hunters and anglers with options that allow them to perform well, to excel at their sport, and to minimize lead exposure to wildlife. Because hunters and anglers cherish the outdoors and value wildlife, they may find that the increased cost of ammunition and tackle is offset by the knowledge that they are helping to protect wildlife from lead poisoning. This recognition may begin to fuel voluntary shifts to nontoxics in areas without regulatory restrictions.

To facilitate such shifts, HawkWatch will engage in an outreach effort to expose sports enthusiasts to the dangers of lead tackle and ammunition and to the benefits of using nontoxic alternatives.

Here in Sweden we have a total ban against leadammo for waterfowl.

We also have a law against using solids or fmj on larger animals.

jnd wrote:

quote:

We also have a law against using solids or fmj on larger animals.

Interesting! So what types of bullets do you use to replace solids and fmj's as you stated above?

Jagter,
There are not too many huntable elephants, rhino, or hippo in Sweden or the USA. Hence no real need for solids.

Most states in the USA do not allow use of solid or FMJ bullets for hunting. No lead shot for waterfowl is a Federal mandate for all of the USA.

I am all for the monometal copper bullets for my use in hunting rifles, for all the reasons you state.

I will make an exception for North Fork bullets with solid copper shank and bonded lead nose core. They retain close to 100% of weight no matter what the impact speed.

I do understand your point about the 'not too many huntables' in both Sweden and the USA. Sorry for that, but that's why Africa is still there

With the no lead shot on waterfowl both you and Sweden are miles ahead of us in SA. Good so!

Is monolithic copper bullets that do expand in a controlled manner(mushroom) regarded as solids or are they allowed in your hunting?
It sounds so, but just for clarity, confirm please if you don't mind.

From what I can see both here locally and abroad there is a huge task to educate and inform all hunters about the benefits locked up in the use of modern, premium grade monolithic bullets.

How does one go about to successfully achieve that?

Jagter,
The hollowpoint/expanding monometal bullets like the GSC HV and Barnes TSX would be soft points, looked at like the exposed lead soft point or ballistic tip type bullet, here in the USA, any of the 50 states.

I think even the North Fork Cup Point "solid" would be legal for any big game in the USA, because it is an "expander" also.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
jnd wrote:

quote:

We also have a law against using solids or fmj on larger animals.

Interesting! So what types of bullets do you use to replace solids and fmj's as you stated above?

The expandeble non lead bullet is allowed in Sweden.
To me a solid bullet is solid not made to expand,

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


The potential lethality of ogived Solids are hugely underestimated, in fact the game laws as they now stand operate from a premise that solids cause caliber sized wounds only and fail to even consider the truth about the terminal ballistics event.

So why is the hunting and conservation crowd so behind in their knowledge?

I believe a lot of the ban has to do with solids not losing their lethality after impacting the intended target.

I think a big part of the answer to the lead poisoning is ....I don,t nor do I know anyone who eats meat that got hit by the bullet or parts of bullet . And thats hundreds of people.....With the Red Misters I tend to use , fist size exit wounds are common.....But I use mostly X bullets when hunting and quite a lot of Swift and Trophy Bonded bullets when I use factory loaded ammo ........I,ve used the 300 gr Hornady solid on deer and the guy I was hunting with ,,,after a while commented that they made just as big a hole as the soft point ammo did on deer..... However I tend to be Rabidly anti enviornmentist so mayby I will go to shooting Lead bullets............Lead is great stuff..........But MONOMETAL Bullets are better ,., Its a toss up .. bother enviros or shoot , the best bullets.......If I shoot lots of large preditors , that will bother the e,wackos more than heavy metal.. Thats probably the answer..........Fall some Old Growth Timber..........

gumboot458 wrote:

quote:

I think a big part of the answer to the lead poisoning is ....I don,t nor do I know anyone who eats meat that got hit by the bullet or parts of bullet . And thats hundreds of people.....

That's probably where all the problems re lead poisoning starts in the first place!

The following is an extract from an article written in Afrikaans by Prof. Dr. Gerhard Verdoorn, a worldwide well known wild life conservationist:

quote:

As mens 'n X-straalfoto van 'n bok se blad neem waardeur 'n gewone loodkoeël is, dan sal jy nooit ooit daardie vleis gebruik nie want die spikkels lood is soos 'n mosaiek in die vleis. Om sulke vleis vir jou hond aan te bied is stadige moordpleeg.

My effort of a direct translation:

quote:

If you take an X-ray photo of a bucks shoulder through which a lead bullet travelled, you will never ever use that meat, because the speckles of lead is like a mosaic in the meat. To present such meat to your dog is to commit a slow murder.

Microscopic speckles of lead in other words in the meat where the naked eye saw it was all clear and good to eat!

Think again, it makes perfectly sense!

There is a basic question about the "need" for monolithic bullets. Who "needs" them? Perhaps buffalo hunters, elephant hunters and the occasional hippo or rhino shoot. How many hunters does that represent? How many shots does that represent? Of that number, how many reload?

Next, you can buy Sellier&Bellot, Norma and Federal ammunition with Barnes monolithic bullets in factory loadings. Even those who hunt primarily in Africa shoot a majority of thin skinned game and the Swift A-Frame (Remington factory loaded) and the Nosler Partition (Federal factory loaded) have worked well for a long time.

To be honest, I'm surprised they sell as many as they do. I certainly buy more NorthForks and Rhinos than I "need".

quote:

Who "needs" them?

Wink, once dangerous game hunters have seen how effective FN's (expanding mono's too) are on their quarry, they will certainly realise that "THEY NEED" them. No doubt about that as many ele, buff and other large game hunters on this forum will tell you if they so wish.

quote:

Even those who hunt primarily in Africa shoot a majority of thin skinned game...

and the controlled expanding premium grade monolithic bullets work even better than most other bullets on them.

Although other bullets worked fine for a long time, technology has without doubt put something far better on our doorstep, yet most hunters are still addicted to the old habits.

I think you're going to be even more surprised to see how much more monolithic bullets are going to be sold in years to come.

Yet, these question remain unanswered:
"From what I can see both here locally and abroad there is a huge task to educate and inform all hunters about the benefits locked up in the use of modern, premium grade monolithic bullets.

How does one go about to successfully achieve that?" as well as:

"So why is the hunting and conservation crowd so behind in their knowledge?" as Alf asked.

/

The discussion of monometal, in all its forms and bullet that include lead, in all of its forms are in no way related to lead vs. steel in shotshells. Until the advent of Bismuth and other non-toxics, steel had soured me on duck hunting. You are reduce to shooting right over the blocks and I missed those high pass shots. Not to mention rendering some fine shotguns out of the game and, many, many, many crippled ducks. Like I said it is a separate issue. Bottome line, I miss Super-x 1 5/8 oz. #4-5's. I do not have a fear of lead poisioning, I drink municipal water. gduffey

Jagter, I certainly don't dispute the effectiveness of mono bullets on DG, but do point out that shooting at DG is very limited in terms of the overall use of ammo (as seen from an ammo or bullet producers view). Even on this forum the vast majority of hunters, including me, have never shot at dangerous game. I keep buying the darn bullets as a strategic stockpile, part of the forward planning people on AR are famous for. When I eventually go on a DG hunt of course they will be obsolete and something better will have replaced them.

Alf, as far as the danger of lead poisoning in human beings via lead bullet wounds goes, I cannot comment. I simply have to accept your word about it with which I have no problem as it stands right now.

My concern about lead poisoning is more about the lead intake via contaminated meat filled with microscopic speckles of lead (not visible to the naked eye, but still there!) due to the use of lead bullets. How do we know that lead intake via this avenue hasn't got the same effect on human beings as on vultures for instance?

Again from Prof. Dr. Gerhard Verdoorn's article:

quote:

Uit my eie werk met aasvoëls is die ervarings as volg:
as 'n kransaasvoël Gyps coprotheres slegs vyf gram lood van 'n tipiese koeël inkry, is die voëls gewaarborg om binne vyf weke of selfs korter te vrek.
Twee jong King vultures Sarcorampus papa is in die Nasionale Dieretuin in Pretoria dood nadat hulle klein Diana-loodkoeëls in hul kos ingekry het omdat kinders windpistole in die Dieretuin ingeneem en afgevuur het.
My student, dr. Erica van Wyk, het op vyf spesies aasvoëls gewerk en die bloedtoksikologie ondersoek en die resultate was kommerwekkend want meeste van die eksemplare wat in die ondersoek gebruik is het sub-letale vlakke van lood in hul sisteme gehad.

Fortunately you do understand Afrikaans - please feel free to translate it for the benefit of others.

As far as the second part of your post is concerned -
1. The number of game I have shot with monolithic HV's are far to little to form a statistical basis of any scientific value
However, from what I've seen in these mono's ability to kill effectively, given good shot placement executed by myself, compared to lead jacketed bullets, the mono's are by far much more superior to the latter.
2. No lead speckles in the meat! (Only 5 grams to guarantee the death of a vulture )

So yes, my intuition only, but more than enough to shout it out from the rooftops!

/

While it may not be the only issue in the choice of using a FN style monometal bullet, some rifles don't feed them well, or would require some good gunsmithing to get them to feed well. I'm experimenting right now with the CPS bullets from NorthFork in my 404 Jeffery and haven't yet found a bullet seating depth which results in reliable feeding with this particular bullet. I haven't given up hope yet but the problem does exist more often with the long FN bullets more often than with an ogival shaped bullet like the Barnes Banded Solid.

If your house is more than thirty years old...

you likely have copper pipe plumbing...
with lead soldered joints "sweated" on
you likely have lead-based paint
the odds are also pretty fair that you have asbestos shingles and/or siding.

ditto for us forty-plus years olds who went to school as far as the paint used in the school...and church...and everywhere else.

If you live in a new(er) house all you have to deal with is the binder chemicals they use in plywood and particle board, and chipboard...

We are getting off-track, I apologize for my wandering.

I am still packing a couple of AK-47 slugs around, for about 35 years now...maybe the lead content and open base is what makes me crazy.

When I get my annual, I just have them check the blood work for lead levels while they are at it.

regards,

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS

I was surprised to see this "environmental" report listed under the "big bore" heading. I have to respond that I'm one of the "uninformed" (and a "yank") that have used lead in most of my shooting "recipes" for the last 50 years. My "solid" (re: monolithic) bullet of choice is a hard cast 45 caliber slug at 1100 to 2100fps. While we have certainly helped the "steel" industry by banning lead, we have increased the "cripple" rate of waterfowl probably more; but have driven more "old" duck hunters from the scene because they will not ruin their old Parkers, L.C. Smiths, etc.(probably the main intent of the "environmentalist" in the first place). Let's see the "mountains" of research on the millions of ducks and geese to be saved before and after that "ban" and how it has saved mankind from itself. There is none, just "supposition" pushed through legislation. Is the same type of research being applied here? Kind of reminds me of the awful "scourge" of DDT. We saved the birds, but killed millions of people in 3rd world countries when we took away their one protection from Malaria by banning its use. This research was also done by a "Wildlife Conservationist".(Now, even the United Nations recognizes the benefits of DDT use to control Malaria.) The ban on lead shotshells was poorly researced, heavily funded, and forced down our throats by most who opposed hunting of any kind. Do I think lead spattered on the meat is dangerous to eat, you bet! So is "arsenic" in wine, or pepper on steak, or "saccharin" in tea - in "mega quantities". I guess I tend to have the same "knee jerk" reaction as Gumboot when I read of some report that the "sky is falling" that resembles a "greenies" solution to a problem involving guns and hunting. There's a lot of "junk science" out there that supports most political regulations and laws for our good. Like "blood shot" meat, when I "process" an animal I cut out far enough from the bullet hole I should not get "spattered". I can't imagine a bullet imparting enough lead to harm a person unless it is shot multiple times and purposely "butchered" to eat the affected area. While I respect your opinion, I do not subcribe to your premise. Now sell me some of those Barnes TSX bullets at half price and you might have something; but make sure there is some viable research showing massive dosages of pure copper is not going to cause "liver" damage Mags

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
While it may not be the only issue in the choice of using a FN style monometal bullet, some rifles don't feed them well, or would require some good gunsmithing to get them to feed well.
...............
I haven't given up hope yet but the problem does exist more often with the long FN bullets more often than with an ogival shaped bullet like the Barnes Banded Solid.

Wink, one of the basic concepts of monolithic bullets, specifically pure copper bullets, is that bullet weight is no longer of major importance. Rather bullet length - not only to firstly match your rifle's twist rate, but also would the correct bullet length probably reduce or cut feeding problems out once you've found the correct seating depth for that specific bullet.
Once that is sorted out you may end up with a bullet having less weight. Higher velocity makes up for that - that's now to say if you use bullets based on the drive band technology like GSC's FN and HV bullets.

I think that's worth some experimenting work on your side - it may just work for your rifle.

quote:

If your house is more than thirty years old...

you likely have copper pipe plumbing...
with lead soldered joints "sweated" on
you likely have lead-based paint

If I remember correctly, the last time I did copper pipe work, all the sockets and elbows were soldered on the outside of the pipe - water flowing thru has no contact with the lead at all!
We also don't lick our lead-based painted walls either!

Gentlemen, if it takes only 5 grams of lead intake (sentence continues in bold section)

quote:

No lead speckles in the meat! (Only 5 grams to guarantee the death of a vulture),

do you really think it is not serious for a human being?

What's more, this lead builds up in a body - to date has never been successfully removed or detoxed/unleaded from a vulture for instance.

So much for lead poisoning.

Why are more hunters not using premium grade monolithic bullets with all its benefits to them? (Not only FN's for DG, but more specifically HV's for plains game.)

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
Would it be fair and realistic to say that at most one third (33%) of all hunters are well informed and fully aware (and using them) of all the benefits arising from the use of modern monolithic bullets - both HV and FN types?

What would those "benefits" be?

quote:

Since these premium grade bullets are available for quite some time already on the market and the benefits in using them being made widely known, why is it that such a low percentage of all hunters prefer to use them?

Perhaps because they've found the "benefits" to be 100% baseless hype? Perhaps because no benefit plus significant drawbacks don't impress?

Like anyone else, I hunt mostly with expanding bullets. When I choose an expanding bullet, I want an expanding bullet, not a quasi/pseudo/what direction is the wind blowing?/what day of the week is it?/semi-solid. There are no mono-metal expanding bullets, only semi-solids. They are neither expanding bullets, nor solids, so fill neither need acceptably well.

I'll never fire another mono-metal bullet at game. I have too much respect for the game that I hunt to use politically correct, shitty bullets.

quote:

Lastly, are hunters aware of the dangers of lead poisoning resulting from the use of conventional jacketed lead bullets?

You posted this on the wrong forum. The Political Formum is farther down the page.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I am still packing a couple of AK-47 slugs around, for about 35 years now...maybe the lead content and open base is what makes me crazy.

Can't speak to the crazy part. But our bodies (as do all mammals I am sure) does a very effective job of encapsulating lead pellets.

/

Ditto Alf. 0.3 SD is good enough and do-able with the monometals and more than enough twist.

Alf wrote:

quote:

The premise that bullet weight is no longer a factor is fatally flawed. Mass has everything to do with the penetration proccess !

Let me spell it out -
When selecting a bullet for a rifle with a specific twist rate in its barrel, you select the bullet with the correct length for that twist rate rather than selecting a bullet with a specific weight.
As GS Custom says:

quote:

Selecting a bullet by weight makes as much sense as buying shoes by weight rather than size.

Of course there is still a weight factor attached to the bullet, yet less than a lead core jacketed bullet of similar length. In a .308Win for instance 130gr as opposed to 150gr with the lead core jacketed bullet.
However, the far better designed bullet with the better structure together with the higher velocity, performs by far much better than any lead core bonded or whatever other non-monolithic bullets.

Is that so hard to understand and be remembered for ever so that one hasn't got to repeat the whole story in each and every post on this subject?

RIP, as far as SD goes, that same little 130gr GSCHV .308 bullet has an SD figure of only .196 as opposed to the 150gr lead core jacketed bullet with an SD of I think about .280 or so.
Yet again, the far lower SD bullet out performs the high SD one by far!
Só SD is thrown out the window when using real premium grade monos!

Luckily Chris Bekker is no longer around, otherwise I would have to fight him as well on this issue!

400 Nitro Express,

quote:

Perhaps because they've found the "benefits" to be 100% baseless hype? Perhaps because no benefit plus significant drawbacks don't impress?

Could you be more specific about the baseless hype and perhaps also mention what you consider the significant drawbacks please?

Jagter,
You and I are barking up the same tree. It is 400 Nitro Express who is just trying to be controversial .

/

Thanks RIP, I knew there would be guys like me and you as well as many others out there to.

But this young man Alf wrote again:

quote:

There is no problem with the assumption of having to select the bullet with the most favourable geometry for in flight stability but the object of the excercise in terms of a military or hunting bullet is to penetrate the target and when it comes to this part of the equation your statement regaring SD simply does not hold water.

How do you know that Alf?

If I tell you that before I knew of GSCHV's, I have shot large numbers of game ranging from Duiker to Eland and everything in between over many years with lead core jacketed (lcj) 150gr bullets in my .308W and 175gr bullets in the 7mm Rem Mag and only very often did I had complete penetration. More so with the 7mm RM, but then with massive meat damage!!!

Since I have started using 130gr GSCHV in both my .308W and 7mm Rem Mag on Impala, Blesbuck, B/wildebeest and Kudu hunted so far, all I had each time was complete penetration - never recovered a single GSCHV so far!
Same applies to my son with his .270 and 110gr GSCHV on Springbuck. All with minimum meat damage.

Now I'm going to tell you that the SD theory doesn't hold water in the case where GSCHV bullets are used. (This is the first part of "outperform" in my mind.)

The second part of "outperform" as I see it and as you request hereafter:

quote:

First off what is defined as "outperform" Please quantify the concept for me in terms of measurable biological changes brought about in target that would lead to the target's demise.

is, being a hunter and not a scientist my 'measurable biological changes brought about in target' is based on practical experience.
When still using 150gr and 175gr lcj bullets I had animals running 50+ meters before they're dead with proper shot placement in the vital organ, triangle area.

The longest distance with 130gr GSCHV's so far were only 15 meters with the same type of shot placement - mostly far less than that.
Só, in target the GSCHV's must have caused a much larger biological change since the time from the animal was shot till death is a lot shorter.

quote:

Why do you not use a 130 gr HV and compare that to a theoretical 150 gr HV and now you have a valid comparison to assess the contribution of SD.

The comparison is between a lcj bullet and a GSCHV bullet and not between different sizes of GSCHV bullets.

Although you claim "We cannot escape this reality, no matter how you look at it" I think it must be noted that the HV concept is far less dependant on this SD reality for it's ability to kill effectively, than the older lcj concept.

/

Thanks Alf, I think you got my point, how to prove it scientifically 100% acceptable to you and others, is beyond my field and need to be convinced of the facts that I've experienced.

quote:

The problem with this methodology is that it does not consider all the facts and it may just be that it had nothing to do with bullet type at all but something as mundane as correct bullet placement.

The above is possible, but why would I, after many years of hunting and being used to execute good shot placement on animals hunted, suddenly have a major improvement in my shot placement ability only because I started using GSCHV's?
(They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks!)
Or is that yet another benefit of using GSCHV's?


Alf, do you know what type of bullets the Chinese are using and at what velocities they are launching those little dangerous needles and pins?

/

Chinese millitary firearms -


The bullets they're fring 5.8mm x 42mm (Steel penetrator a slightly tapered flat nose!)


Recovered bullets - on this picture it seems as if they have their penetration limitations!

FWIW..

I have always cut well-around bullets that have lost a lot of weight or come apart. One of my friends/profs. here with vast experience with wildlife/hunting/biology/chemistry dumped a whole deer shoulder the other day after his Sierra bullet came to pieces, saying he would not expose his family to that (or his dog).(it was pretty blood shot anyway)

I am sure opinions are divergent, but I feel that lead is far more of an issue than we give notice too, as it is chronic, not acute and thus not well in our immediately evident range of thoughts. I have often wondered about all that lead from high volume bird shoots like pigeon/dove etc...we are talking potentially hundreds of kilos per area in a year.

If we average 1oz. of lead per load, 100rnds on pigeon/dove on a shoot is not unreasonable over a weekend. Thats 2.8kgs (6.2 lbs) of lead. One hundred shooters on an area in a season is 280kgs, mulitply by a decade.....

I am not saying you are now going to die from eating your game meat...but I think carefully about disentegrated bullets.....and huge payloads of shot too