Hi Guys,

Just booked my 3rd trip to Zim for another double buff hunt.

I've used 450gr Woodleighs with good results previously (mild loads probably only 2150-2200fps) but am thinking about trying 400gr Barnes TSX this time.

Based on some advice here should be able to get these going at 2400fps without too much drama.

Question: should I just use the TSX or should I pair them with a banded solid? Is there any POI difference between the two?

Or should I just stoke up the 450gr Woodleighs to 2300fps? I find the SP needs 2gr less to hit the same POI as the solid.

Buff are usually 50m or less but Kudu etc often 200m looking for maybe something flatter shooting.

Any suggestions?

Cheers

DK

With the TSX and other expanding solid copper bullets we have today, I no longer think the solids are the ticket.

I'd load'er up with TSX's and never look back!

Look at CEB and North Fork, both will serve you well, availability may be an issue for you, given your location. With the CEB you will be able to go with a lighter bullet for a flatter trajectory and a little less shoulder thump. The performance of the CEB bullets will amaze you.

Take a handful of solids if you have to dig a wounded buff out of the jess.

I used a 370 gr CEB Non Con from my .416 Rem Mag on my buffalo in June. Didn't chronograph the load but it did an amazing job. Devastation inside the bull was very impressive and the bull didn't go more than 20 yards, probably less, before going down.

The TSX in 416 is a devastating bullet on buffalo. Highly recommended.

DK1

I think you'd be very pleased with the TSX only on buffalo. You might want a few solids for the litte guys but I don't think you need them for buffalo. You'll need to back off a little on the top load for your banded solid load to get the same POI as the TSX but in my experience they do shoot to the same POI with mimimal load tweaking.

Mark

The nice thing about the CEB Raptor you get the best of both worlds. A great expanding bullet with lots of trauma and a solid base that penetrates on like a solid. The Northfork cup point expanding is also a great bullet. Nothing wrong with a TSX either.

Another thumbs up for the CEB Raptor (non-con) on Buff. I used the 400gr Swift A-frame on my first dozen, but am now convinced there is no better bullet than the CEBs: amazing internal destruction.

Dan,

I used the .416 (400 grain) TSX bullets on three buffalo in Tanzania. They performed splendidly. I used the .375 (300 grain) TSX bullets in my .375 Ruger this year on buffalo and it was down and out in twenty yards with one shot. They work great.

The first two buffalo I killed were with a .416 Rem and 400 Grain TSX in Tanzania. Velocity was around 2380. Textbook perfect on the buffalo. Worked very well on wildebeest, impala, and warthog also.

POI was great with the Barnes solid. Back then Barnes had a Flat Nose solid, now it is a round nose.

That being said the CEB Raptor and NorthFork Cup Points are also great bullets.

While some others disagree I always have good solids like the North Fork or CEB even for buffalo.



Used on Buffalo in Tanzania

I used .416 TSX's in my .416 Rigby on buffalo in Zim...first shot at about 70 yards on buffalo facing us entered chest and exited about 2" bellow his tail, subsequent shots all passed thru as well. I like TSX's.

Karl

Another thumbs up tu2 for the CEB Raptor (non-con) on Buff. I used a 370gr .411 dia CEB NC in my 40H&H moving around 2460fps for a one shot kill on my Zambezi Buff in 2012

Thanks guys. The CEB's and North Forks are hard to get here but the TSX's are ok.

I'll try the TSX and take a few banded solids just in case.

Seems like these solid copper bullets are the go now. My friend used TSX in .375 this year and they worked very well.

Cheers

DK

quote:

Originally posted by DK1:
Thanks guys. The CEB's and North Forks are hard to get here but the TSX's are ok.

Cheers

DK

But they are available here if you want them.

quote:

Thanks guys. The CEB's and North Forks are hard to get here

Our Friend Daryl Lenkic in Australia, is the official CEB and North Fork Distributor in Australia.

http://www.meplat.com.au

He either has what you need, or can get it...... Most likely in 416 caliber he has them in stock....

Michael

quote:

While some others disagree I always have good solids like the North Fork or CEB even for buffalo.

Try to understand this statement, those who proclaim that solids are no longer needed, pay attention.

Of course we are not talking about 1st shots. 1st shots on buffalo should always be taken with a bullet that causes trauma, destroys tissue, vitals, vessels..... If your buff don't drop to the shot, which end of the buffalo are you most likely looking at? Think about it? If it does not drop, then more than likely you are looking at the South end of a North Bound buffalo! While some extreme NonCons can get there sometimes, Mike and I both say, that North Fork Solid, that #13 CEB Solid, WILL ALWAYS GET THERE from ass to nose!!!!!!

What, are you one of those that shoots one time and "admires" your handy work? So you only need ONE bullet? Hell, take a single shot then.......... If you intend to do it proper, shoot until your problem is solved, and then shoot some more, then use a proper bullet on second and thirds and +, a real solid, CEB or North Fork.............. If not, stay the hell home........

Michael

Michael, which weight CEB would you use in a 416 Rigby or Rem? Looks like we can choose from 300, 325, and 375 grain. The 300 with the tip would seem to also be great for plains game if longer shots are required, but is the 300 enough for buff?

Hi Michael458,

I didn't know these were available here in Aus so thanks for the contact. Larger caliber projectiles can be hard to get here in Aus. Last year I left it a bit late to load up a batch to take and had to get a box and a half of seconds from Woodleigh. There's no Barnes solids in the country and I've been told maybe 6 months for the ones I've ordered to arrive.

If you hit them in the right spot one round should be heaps. However, often the shot you r get is not ideal and can be through bush so even if you're aim is good, even small leaves and twigs can throw your shot off.

It is an interesting exercise to put a target up at 50m with a light bugs at 25m and see what happens, even with decent calibres and solids. For anyone who hasn't tried this, give it a go and you might be surprised, or alarmed!

If you miss the heart/plumbing even by a bit it is amazing how many rounds and angry buff takes to drop. My hunting buddy put 8 rounds into one this year before it dropped. These are amazingly tough animals.

Mike I think you are right and on reflection I think I'd always load a couple of solids at the bottom. I think I'll run two TSX on top and two solids at the bottom.

In saying this I'll load whatever my PH suggests. Even if we think differently, these are the guys that look after us if it all goes pear shaped.

I will buy a box of the CEB's though to try.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Great forum with plenty of members who are prepared to offer advice.

Cheers

DK

Bloody type ahead thing. I didn't mean "bugs"' I meant "bush" between the you and the target! If you can hit a bug you're doing better than me!

By the way the Woodleighs have performed well for me but seem to lose petals on buff. In saying that 3 of 4 have gone down to one shot and the other one was not on target so nothing wrong withe the projectile.

Cheers

DK

quote:

Originally posted by Adamsdjr:
Michael, which weight CEB would you use in a 416 Rigby or Rem? Looks like we can choose from 300, 325, and 375 grain. The 300 with the tip would seem to also be great for plains game if longer shots are required, but is the 300 enough for buff?

Adam.... 416 is rather particular when it comes to Twist Rates.... Larger calibers, a proper designed solid can damn near self stabilize itself during terminals, and can do well during terminals with slower twist rates, 1:14, 1:16 twist are common in 416. 1:14 begins to stabilize proper 400 solids during terminals, 95% of total penetration is stable. 1:12 does the trick with 400 Solids 65% + meplat of caliber 100% stable.

Most are 1:14 and 1:16, and for these I think you guys are just as well off with 350 CEB #13 Solids, and 370 North Fork Solids. For the expanding or trauma inflicting bullet.... 325 #13 HP Safari Raptor is the matching bullet for the 350 #13 Solid..... A lot of 325s have been used on buffalo with incredible results.....

The 300 ESP Raptor is actually a very good bullet, and yes, it is enough for buffalo. I shot several buffalo with this bullet in Australia in September, with very good results, and all exits with the HP end and tipped.
Do remember, one cannot load the ESP... Enhanced System Projectile, the same as you would other 300 gr 416 Bullets. This bullet seats very deep in the case, .9 inches or so, this allows a tip to be installed and run them through the magazine. Seated deep like this does two things, one, raises pressures, TWO with a #13 Solid seated inside the case, when compressing, powder is pushed OUTWARDS into the case walls, too much powder will give you a bulged case. I was not a big fan of the ESP Raptor in larger calibers in the beginning, and still not really, but this 300 gr ESP Raptor has a place, and it is a strong bullet, very capable of doing everything, and of course, turn it around, and you have your #13 Solid.... So there are many advantages, although you will run it a bit slower than a normal 300 that is not seated as deep. But also, this bullet is far more capable of heavy work and doing far more than your normal 300 416 caliber bullet. I would in no way take any normal conventional 300 gr bullet to buffalo.... But this ESP Raptor is quite another story.

DK1.... You are welcome, you will enjoy working with Daryl, he is a very serious shooter as well and knows his stuff with all these bullets.......

quote:

It is an interesting exercise to put a target up at 50m with a light bugs at 25m and see what happens, even with decent calibres and solids. For anyone who hasn't tried this, give it a go and you might be surprised, or alarmed!

Well, as DK says, if you have a "BUG" fly in front of your bullet, this can be bad! LOL........... HEH HEH....

There is no such thing as busting brush and having 100% reliability with ANY BULLET. Some are worse than others. I can tell you now, the CEB #13s HPs Raptors do not like brush, as many other expanding bullets do not either. The best for busting brush is the #13 Solids and the North Fork Solids.... They do one HELL OF JOB busting brush! This past July I shot at a running buffalo at around 40 yards. I had already put a #13 HP through his lungs with a 50 B&M Alaskan lever gun, 365 #13 HP. My second shot hit a 3-4 inch diameter tree 10 yards in front of me. Dead center, in video you can actually see the bullet hit the tree, go straight through it, and dead straight to the buffalo, which hits it straight through the stomach, and exits the other side. This was a .500 caliber 405 gr #13 Lever Solid at 2120 fps. Another excellent reason to have a solid!

Fact is, there are many many many excellent reasons to back up with a SOLID... AND NOT ONE DAMED REASON NOT TO!

Oh yes, I know the old worry of shooting through buffalo..... So, and the point is? Hell yes, that is exactly what I want, Shoot them in the ass and let it fly out the nose, this is what I want!

quote:

In saying this I'll load whatever my PH suggests. Even if we think differently, these are the guys that look after us if it all goes pear shaped.

This is good advice for many folks, especially novices or non shooters. However, most of the time, PHs are not bullet experts, and in MANY cases, actually know far less than we do, especially here. I love them, but I have yet to meet a PH that was as educated as I would like to see them in this area of study. Oh yes, they have seen hundreds and thousands of animals shot, but in many cases there has not been much study going on, its either dead, or its not and that is about the extent of it. Do not rely completely on your PH to guide you.

If you don't believe me, everyone knows the infamous Ivan Carter eh? He shoots Hornady DGS solids, take a look on terminals of that bullets performance, and then let me know if you want to listen to the great Ivan or not! Of course, Ivan has never had a problem with the mighty Hornady! HEH HEH.................

CEBs or North Forks if you are serious about buffalo!

OH, DK1, I did a little brush test some time ago, you might find it interesting, it is posted on "Additional Research" B&M website... Direct link;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...rush-Deflection.html

Michael

Michael, thanks so much for the quick response and your expertise. If I'm not mistaken the 416 325 non-con cannot be mag fed with the tip in place in a Rigby? So our choice is the 300 with a tip and the others without. At least that is what I ran into with the 404 jeffery. In that case I went with the 320 GSC and the 400 CEB solid. The GSC impacted dead on horizontally but about 1-1/2" high, which was perfect. I may see if a similar pairing will work in the Rigby I am about to get started with.

Dave Adams

Dave,

The GSC expanding and solids - the few that were tested - did well up in the terminal thread.

Also CEB has a copper 340gr .416 MTH expanding bullet in their inventory. These should work very well.

You could also have Dan modify his MTH design with the mini-driving bands from their discontinued FBH hunting bullet which will reduce bullet induced barrel pressure without inhibiting performance.

I did this with a 320gr .423 MTH and a 430gr .500 MTH, both bullets in copper. Michael tested the 430gr MTH bullets and they performed most excellently in his bullet box with a minimum impact velocity (assured expansion) of 1500fps (best of my recollection) with no top end limitation. RIP uses these bullets in his .500 caliber 49-10 and gets under MOA at 300yds. So what's not to like...

Just sayin...

You could also go the other direction, and use the 450gr 416s that are out there now.

quote:

Originally posted by DK1:


I will buy a box of the CEB's though to try.

DK

Take your money with you and your credit card !

quote:

Originally posted by silkyoaks:

quote:

Originally posted by DK1:


I will buy a box of the CEB's though to try.

DK

Take your money with you and your credit card !

You know that raises sort of an interesting point. We are blessed with lots of great bullets today. At what point is enough enough? By that I mean, is the incremental benefit that someone might get with a CEB bullet versus a Barnes really worth the cost and hassle? Or Swift over a Partition? At some point you really do reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of performance in most rifles and on most game. I would have no qualms about going after buffalo with Barnes TSX bullets. Will CEB kill a buffalo any deader? In all endeavors the pursuit of perfection ultimately reaches a point where the incremental cost to get the incremental unit of efficiency is just not worth it. Any way, your comment just made me think of that . . . and besides it is a rainy day in Houston.

If you run the numbers there is about a $0.40 difference between a Barnes bullet and CEB Bullet. In the grand scheme it's not a whole heck of a lot considering what ones pays for the rest of the Safari. It comes down to what shoots well out of your rifle and more importantly what gives you confidence when you step up to the line and press the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
If you run the numbers there is about a $0.40 difference between a Barnes bullet and CEB Bullet. In the grand scheme it's not a whole heck of a lot considering what ones pays for the rest of the Safari. It comes down to what shoots well out of your rifle and more importantly what gives you confidence when you step up to the line and press the trigger.

But it is like buying life insurance, at some point, regardless of how cheap the policy is, you just do not need the incremental coverage. As you say, ultimately each person draws that line for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Dave,

The GSC expanding and solids - the few that were tested - did well up in the terminal thread.

Also CEB has a copper 340gr MTH expanding bullet in their inventory. These should work very well.

You could also have Dan modify his MTH design with the mini-driving bands from their discontinued FBH hunting bullet which will reduce bullet induced barrel pressure without inhibiting performance.

I did this with a 320gr .423 MTH and a 430gr .500 MTH, both bullets in copper. Michael tested the 430gr MTH bullets and they performed most excellently in his bullet box with a minimum impact velocity (assured expansion) of 1500fps (best of my recollection) with no top end limitation. RIP uses these bullets in his .500 caliber 49-10 and gets under MOA at 300yds. So what's not to like...

Just sayin...

Jim, the MTH might be a good way to go. I tried them in the 404 and the version
I had needed to be used in a long magazine like the CZ in order to seat them as Dan recommends. I'll get with him and see if can figure a design for the Rigby. What I'm looking for is something that can be used for buff, cats, and PG at longer range, and a solid to go with it that that does not need to be re-zeroed. This summer I just used NF 400 softs and solids in Tanz and it worked fine. The gun nut in me keeps thinking I might be able to find something that shoots flat and performs just as well, hence the question about the 300 raptors.

I love the 450 gr. Woodleighs on buffalo for the first shot, the really make them shudder, I shot them at about 2350 FPS...

The Barnes and GS Customs bullets are very good indeed in all the big bore calibers..I also have had great success with the 400 gr. Nosler since they moved the partition forward its awessome..

My all time favorite bullet for buffalo is the North Fork cup point. it penetrates as well as a solid and expands enough to kill real well..

Dave,

If you had some of of the 404 (.423 caliber) banded MTH bullets you had my design for the 63mm long 423 Dakota cartridge case for use in 3.6" magazines. It was designed with a 0.9404" nose projection from base of the SealTite band to the HP meplat. And yes the nose projection, even when seated as deep as possible, is way to long for the typical 404 Jeffery cartridge case and magazine.

I never had good luck with the older Barnes in the smaller calibers or in the 300 Mag and in the 338 caliber, and as a consequence never tried them in the 416.

My buddies used the Swift A frame 400 grain which was the recommendation of the Ph. I go with the Nosler 400gr Partitions and a Nosler 400 grain solid or two loaded too.

But the Barnes sure seems the ticket now.

quote:

is the incremental benefit that someone might get with a CEB bullet versus a Barnes really worth the cost and hassle?

Yes...........

quote:

Or Swift over a Partition?

Yes...........

quote:

Will CEB kill a buffalo any deader?

Yes...........

quote:

incremental unit of efficiency is just not worth it

A good bit beyond just "incremental".........

Sometimes Michael I wonder if you are so invested in this subject, emotionally, if it effects your ability to be objective.

It is beyond debate that at some point improvements in efficiency and effectiveness become asymptotic relative to the cost of achieving the incremental gain in efficiency and effectiveness. As for me, when it comes to discussing the incremental benefit of a .416 CEB non-con bullet over a .416 Barnes TSX when used on buffalo, relative to the cost of enjoying that modest incremental benefit, I am happy to use the Barnes TSX. I am not suggesting that the CEB may be more effective (which it may or may not be), I am only suggesting that if it is, it is only incrementally more effective and certainly not enough to justify paying substantially more for it. If others are prepared to pay more than 50% more for something that only gives them, maybe, a 5-10% improvement in performance, who am I to question their irrational decision.

Perhaps we just add this to the list of items on which we agree to disagree. See you in Dallas, save me some apple pie this year.

I'm still amazed at people worried about the cost of a bullet verses performance. If you are shooting paper sure you want the cheapest thing you can find, relative to what you are after. If you are shooting game especially stuff that costs in the thousands for trophy fees why worry about 50 cents to even a few dollars more per bullet. Any old plain jane bullet can kill but why not get the best for your intended game. There really isn't that much difference in cost. I like cheap too, that's why I still shoot lots of cast loads for practice.

Sam, nice try, but that is really an over simplification. The point is that either bullet, the CEB or the TSX, will do the job on a buffalo efficiently, effectively and far better than the "plain jane" bullets being used not that many years ago. It has been proven time and time again in the field. That being the case, what is the rationale for someone to pay 50%+ more for one bullet over the other when there is no meaningful difference in performance?

I like cars. Would I pay $2000 more for a car with 100 HP more than another car, sure. Would I pay $2000 more for a car with 10 HP more than another car, not likely.

quote:

If others are prepared to pay more than 50% more for something that only gives them, maybe, a 5-10% improvement in performance, who am I to question their irrational decision.

Mike... It goes way further than 5-10% more improvement in performance.... Fact is, you can probably triple the amount of trauma inflicted... How many CEB NonCons have you shot animals with? Have you done direct comparisons in trauma inflicted?

Ask various PHs that have seen the trauma, Andrew and Paul being two that have seen a lot of it......

You know, I don't care what you use, no skin off my ass either way, if you have used them, and all you see is 5-10% increase in trauma, fine, use barnes or woodleighs or other conventionals, but if you have not used them, the best you are doing is talking out your ass! No offense, meant, but just plain truth.

Not sure about Pie this year, DSC is making a hell of a noise about certain types of beverages being in and around the booths this year..... Of some concern......

Like I said, we will agree to disagree. To me a quick clean kill is a quick clean kill regardless of the bullet . . . and the TSX has proven that it is more than capable of predictably and regularly producing quick clean kills. If I fall on my head out of a four story building I will be just as dead as if I fell on my head out of a forty story building even though the latter may result in more "trauma".

. . . I would like to talk to you about buying some incremental life insurance though since I like the way you think about the trade off of incremental benefit versus cost . . .

MJines,

OK I see your point and I see mine too.
The TSX is a great bullet and in some applications I think it is a better choice than the CEB but I also think in other applications the CEB is better. There is hardly any cost difference between the two bullets. The TSX is more conventional in the way it works which is fine. The CEB does do more tramua to the insides and penetrates deeper than the TSX. I think on marginal shots you would have a better chance of recovery with a CEB Raptor than a TSX in most cases.

The beauty/curse of these arguments is that there is no right or wrong answer . . . we are talking about each person's subjective view of how much they are prepared to pay for each incremental bit of improvement . . . and everyone is likely to draw that line at a little different place. My only point is that it is fair for someone to say, enough is enough, I am not prepared to pay 10X more for 1X more in improved performance. I also think we can all agree that we are really blessed in this day and age with a plethora of great bullets compared to just a decade or so ago . . . that makes the debate over when enough is enough even more interesting.

Barnes 416 350 gr TSX are $53 at Midway and 416 370 gr CEB Raptors are $81 per 50. Yes more expensive but not 10X. Roughly $1 verses $1.60.