I reckon in the M70 it would have been a good seller.

With backed off loads (as Saeed does with his 375/404 Imp) equal 375 Wby loaded to full power.

I know RIP likes to be critical of the slightly rebated rim However, I have had over the years lots of involvement with the 300 RUM and no problem. Also, te 378 based calibres are rebated. Unlike the H&H based belted cases the 378 case has a rim smaller in diameter than the belt.

Back when the 375RUM was an up&coming cartridge I had a M70 338 rebarrelled to 375RUM. The follower was changed but I think the magazine was already full length. With a 28" barrel it was designated for long range game (elk & up). I used it with 250 bullets and it was quite effective out to 500 yards. However a few years back I saw Sierra HPBTM 350 gr and got a Leupold 4-24x scope with a bullet drop dial set to 1050. However with the present mounts (Leupold dual dovetail) the scope runs out of adjustment at 425 yards. Leupold inspected the scope and found no problems; so now I'm in the hunt for a 20MOA base & rings. Finding one that fits the M70 screws (.33") and the 34mm scope has turned into an ordeal, however that is not the fault of the cartridge.


the only problem that I have had with the cartridge was a lack of availability. but I've found enough to keep it going well past my ability to shoot it. I really like the cartridge. I suppose the only reason that it has declined is the 375 Ruger filling the gap with brass that is more inclined for mass production since it has the .532" head and web and no belt and fitting standard length actions.


I think a more valid comparison is for long range target work against the 338 Lapua. With heavy streamlined bullets they both do very well. And the RUM does so with a .532 base.

I see Mike is using my name in vain again.

Fact is, the .375 RUM offers no significant benefit over the .375 WBY of 2002 C.I.P. homologation.
Must be a throat thing, eh?
Just like with the .458 WIN winner.

And the .375 Weatherby Magnum will completely clean up a .375 H&H chamber with no barrel setback required.
The .375 RUM will not clean up the neck-1/shoulder juncture of a .375 H&H chamber,
unless you set the barrel back.

I know, incredible, but all true.
And who needs a .375/300-grainer to go faster than 2800 fps from a 26" barrel?
Not me!
Make mine a .375 Weatherby Magnum and a .458 WIN,
both of them with 3.6" magazine box length Winchester M70 actions.
But I will settle for both on CZ actions with 3.8" box length.

Rip ...

The RUM is really a 3.8” length cartridge that was compromised to fit the designers line of rifles. For DGR...I think it would have been more versatile on a CZ magnum action. Gives you room to push the 300s and 350s at 3.75-3.8” OAL without encroaching on case capacity. When you surpass the H&H and Weatherby cartridges you quickly hit a diminishing return on additional powder and recoil similar to the 378 WBY..and for the additional recoil you might as well step up in caliber.

Having said all that I am having a 375 RUM built on a LH M70 as we speak. Sunny Hill makes a mag box with their bottom metal built for the Ultra cartridges that allows a 3.640” OAL (with action modification) and I am throating the gun to run 300 and 350gr TSXs. It should push the 350s at 2500 with a 24” barrel which will equate to 375H&H like performance with 300s...not that the H&H combo was lacking, or hasn’t been proven effective for eons...more of a “just because” kind of project.

My LH CZ in 375 H&H would have been a much better platform but due to the rarity of the LH magnum actions since they were discontinued I am reserving it for a 450 Rigby project I have in mind.

If long range was the goal then the 375 Cheytac is really the route where you get the speed to take advantage of the crazy high BC 375 bullets.

The original chambering on Rem 700 is effective but a synthetic stocked 8lb 375 RUM with a factory trigger is a recipe for excessive recoil and low rifle sales.

I was not so much about arguing the case for a 375 RUM but that I think if it had been a 375 Winchester Magnum in the M70 it would have done much better in sales.

quote:

I think if it had been a 375 Winchester Magnum in the M70 it would have done much bett

Mike you may be right...once you get into dangerous game calibers, CRF seems to be the demand.

And what happens when someone manage(d) to fire a .375 Winchester in a .375 WinMag chamber??

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I was not so much about arguing the case for a 375 RUM but that I think if it had been a 375 Winchester Magnum in the M70 it would have done much better in sales.

They could've just offered the 375 Weatherby in the M70. I have one and I see no reason to own a 338 Win Mag. A 270 or 30-06, a 375 Weatherby and a 500 Jeffery kind of rounds things out for me.

I love my RUM...

Here's a M70 Super Grade in 375RUM. It isn't exactly set-up for dangerous game- there are other cartridges better suited for that (404, 458) but for long range soft skinned, this is difficult to beat.

Back in the first two years of this century, when the .375 RUM was young, and so was my gunsmith, before he quit gunsmithing and went to medical school,
I had him cobble together a .375 RUM using a CZ 550 Magnum action, and a take-off Winchester M70 Classic barrel.
He cut off the M70 threads and re-threaded the barrel for the CZ, and chambered it as .375 RUM, and an engraver made the "H&H" disappear, replaced by "RUM."
Cerakote refinished, it looked great.
Barrel ended up 23" long.

I shot a nice, mature, basket-rack, whitetail buck with it, from a tree stand, at 50 yards, with a 300-grain Swift A-Frame.
It did little meat damage. Just blew a hole right through his rib cage.









The CZ 550 Magnum action has a serial number of AHR 50001.
All the action marking is below woodline.
It was rescued from Great Northern Guns, Anchorage, AK in the latter part of last century.

The throat was very tight, as the earliest reamers available for the .375 RUM were sometimes not SAAMI-throated.
Anyway, the 23"-barreled "Custom" .375 RUM gave a muzzle velocity with factory ammo, that was neck&neck with that of my factory M700 LSS with 26" barrel.
The 23" barreled one also pierced a primer or two with the factory ammo, before I realized I needed to handload for the tight throat.
This was my earliest "Chimera WinCZechster,"
Winchester barrel on CZ action, for the .375 RUM (converse of the one with CZ barrel on the Pre-'64 M70 action, for my .458 WIN "Chimera").
That 23" .375 RUM action was later re-barreled to .375/404 JI with a C.I.P. .375 Weatherby throat using a 26" Dan Lilja barrel, and a CZ Kevlar stock, Lapour safety and Timney trigger.

I still have the take-off Winchester barrel that looks like a factory .375 RUM from Winchester.
The "custom" CZ stock is also still in the "parts is parts" state of storage.
I need to dig that barrel out and have another look at it for aulde lang zyne.
The "Triple Magnum" Pachmayr pad would work better for me with a slip-on Galco leather pad covering,
both for LOP and to cover the ugly of that pad.
Maybe it could then be called a "Quadruple Magnum XXXX pad."

The only .375 RUM I have now is a Remington factory M700 LSS. I kept it because it is so accurate, though so was the WinCZechster.
What was wrong with that WinCZechster?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:



Here's a M70 Super Grade in 375RUM. It isn't exactly set-up for dangerous game- there are other cartridges better suited for that (404, 458) but for long range soft skinned, this is difficult to beat.

I guess that is like a 416 Remington in the M70.

I don't think the Remington name goes with Big Bores. In my opinion the 416 Remington would have been a better seller if had been the 416 Winchester Magnum.

There is also a tendency and especially with Big Bores for people to like the rifle and calibre to be the same company. Don't know about America but in Australia 416 Ruger would be much bigger seller than the 416 Remington. The 404 and 416 Rigby are different as a bit of a big deal getting a Rigby or Jeffery rifle.

Other than just the uniqueness what do these chamberings do that the .375 H&H and .416 Rigby have not been doing for decades???

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
what do these chamberings do that the .375 H&H have not been doing for decades???

Not many H&Hs that will send a 350 grain Sierra MatchKing downrange at 2600 feet per second.

My 375 Bee gets them up to 2550 fps with no sweat at all and still shoots 375 H&H factory when I want to

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Other than just the uniqueness what do these chamberings do that the .375 H&H and .416 Rigby have not been doing for decades???

One problem for the 375 H&H is the Varget/4064 burn rate is a bit fast and the 4350 burn rate a bit slow and doubly so with the long spitzer bullets. Reloader 15 is tops in the 375 but we no longer get those powders in Australia.

The 375 Wby and the 375 RUM and the 378 don't have such issues, especially the RUM and the 378.

The big ones also easily load back to the H&H. In a 378 85 grains of 4064 can be used for 225 grains through to 300 grainers and all do 2600 and even with 300 grainers it is a mild pressure load.

However, I think it is fair to say the bigger 375s are for the bloke who is more of a gun nut as opposed to just having a rifle/calibre as a means to an end.

quote:

However, I think it is fair to say the bigger 375s are for the bloke who is more of a gun nut as opposed to just having a rifle/calibre as a means to an end.

And that applies to a whole bunch of chamberings!

I am glad that people have that type interest and that at least for now, the ability to develop new cartridges and build guns for them asnd go out and shoot targets or hunt with them.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

However, I think it is fair to say the bigger 375s are for the bloke who is more of a gun nut as opposed to just having a rifle/calibre as a means to an end.

And that applies to a whole bunch of chamberings!

I am glad that people have that type interest and that at least for now, the ability to develop new cartridges and build guns for them asnd go out and shoot targets or hunt with them.

Randall,

The only common calibre I have had lots of times and in different rifle configurations has been the 270. It's funny how shooters can "group". With centrefires the 223 and 308 are the common ones as well as 22/250 and 243. I don't know anyone who owns one of them

Naming it something else would not have changed the outcome for it.

quote:

Randall,

The only common calibre I have had lots of times and in different rifle configurations has been the 270. It's funny how shooters can "group". With centrefires the 223 and 308 are the common ones as well as 22/250 and 243. I don't know anyone who owns one of them

Mike, over the years when someone just starting out asks me what calibers I recommend, and this is the God Honest Truth, I tell them that depending on what their future plans are the .243, .270, .308 and .30-06 will take care of everything they will probably run into.

I do not recommend any of the Magnums, simply because too many folks will not spend the time and effort getting used to them.

Growing up in north central Texas, where until the late 1980's the biggest critter anyone was going to take a shot at was a 150 pound or smaller white tail buck!

Also growing up in the 50'- 60's early 70's, there were basically two gun writers in America, Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith and Elmer's writings bit me in the ASS really hard, so at 19 years old my first centerfire hunting rifle was a New 670 Winchester Bolt Action in .300 Win. Mag.

I have never really gotten over Elmer-itis. I have shot javelina and whitetails with a .458 Win Mag.

My Musk Ox with my .375 H&H and the caribou on that trip with my .35 Whelen.

No, for the normal/average hunter if there is such a critter I recommend calibers that can be found in a Mom & Pop Gun Shop/Sporting Goods Store or a Wal-Mart (at least those still selling guns and ammo)?

Me too; I read Elmer religiously in the 60s, and always felt that O'Conner was misguided, using pest guns like the 270 on big game. Most of my rifles start at 338 and that is a very small bore rifle, to me.

So why did I re-barrel such an accurate rifle as the .375 RUM WinCZechster?
Aside from pressure signs with factory ammo due to the tight throat, which could be handloaded to correct,
it was perfect except it had a tendency to overide the rebated rim in feeding.
I could end up closing the bolt on an empty chamber with a fast reload.
Bummer!
That was in 2001, my first experience with the .375 RUM.
I kept the pushfeed M700 LSS.
What does dependable feeding matter in a rifle like that?
It was THE formative experience in my disdain of rebated rims.
I did not want to bother with that kind of feed job.
The .375/404 Jeffery Improved is a much better design.

Rip ...

What about the fact that a 23"-long Winchester take-off barrel shot faster than a 26" Remington factory barrel?
Both were chambered for .375 RUM and the same factory ammo was used in both, and the ambient temperature was only 5*F different.

23", 65*F: 2798 fps MV average for 13 shots
26", 70*F: 2794 fps MV average for 14 shots

The one extra shot with the 26" made no significant difference in the averages.

But the throat was tighter on the 23" barrel.
This was another formative experience.
It explains why the .458 WIN can be loaded long, with more powder, and beats the .458 Lott with some long and heavy bullets.

This material may be used as a bell-ringer.
To ring THE MISSION bell.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I know RIP likes to be critical of the slightly rebated rim However, I have had over the years lots of involvement with the 300 RUM and no problem. Also, te 378 based calibres are rebated. Unlike the H&H based belted cases the 378 case has a rim smaller in diameter than the belt.

.375 RUM of 2000
.300 RUM of 1999
Such disappointments!
A rebated rim is a masturbated rim.

Rip ...

Wrong- Maybe in Texas THE gun writers were Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith but everywhere else it was Jack O'Connor and Warren Page!

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Wrong- Maybe in Texas THE gun writers were Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith but everywhere else it was Jack O'Connor and Warren Page!

Jack O'Connor and Warren Page were very good writers. In fact they are the only two writers where I have read a hunting article all the way though. Normally I just skip through to see rifle/ammo stuff etc.

A bloke called Nick Harvey many many years ago became Australia's top gun write. He took over from a bloke who was the main writer for our min magazine Sporting shooter. He copied both Jack O'Connor and Warren Page writings and often word for word except changing "deer to kangaroo etc." and name of towns and states.

But I always liked Elmer's stuff and always Robert Hutton in G&A magazine. Elmer's hunting type articles were in general a lot more rifle/ammo based than Jack O'Connor and Warren Page was probably in between them. Like Jack O'Connor, Nick Harvey was all 270. Warren Page was 7mm Mashburn and 375 Weatherby.

Back in those days gun writers, both in America and Australia tended to hand their hat on one or two calibres.

Ron,

I would imagine 375 Wby factory ammo would be as fast as 375 RUM factory. Some time ago on Australia's biggest forum a bloke with a 300 Wby and a 300 RUM chronographed both with 180 grain factory and the 300 Wby was a bit faster.

quote:

Wrong- Maybe in Texas THE gun writers were Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith but everywhere else it was Jack O'Connor and Warren Page!

No not wrong. Yes Warren Page was an excellent writer, but he seemed to deal more with the technical aspects of guns and target shooting.

O'connor and Elmer were more into the hunting aspects of guns. I read all of them, plus Byron Dalrymple, Jim Carmichael, Finn Aagard, Ross Seyfried, John Wooters etc. etc. and I am not alone in my estimation that O'connor and Keith had the most impact.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Ron,

I would imagine 375 Wby factory ammo would be as fast as 375 RUM factory. Some time ago on Australia's biggest forum a bloke with a 300 Wby and a 300 RUM chronographed both with 180 grain factory and the 300 Wby was a bit faster.

Again the throat prevails.
No accuracy issues either, eh?
Sort of like the old .458 WIN versus the new .458 Lott.
It is true that Remington advertised their .375 RUM ammo at a lesser velocity with Swift 300-grainer than Weathery did with a 300-grain Nosler in the .375 Wby.
Swift A-Frames do have a tendency to give higher pressures and lower velocities than Nosler Partitions of the same weight,
with same powder charge and primer, in same rifle,
whether .375 RUM or .375 Weatherby Magnum.
So, it's complicated, as always.

Rip ...

Rebated Rim??? The rim on those is only .008 less than the body; hardly enough to matter, I find. Any rifle that can't pick up a cartridge because of .008 needs some magazine work. I build a lot of 338 RUMs.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Rebated Rim??? The rim on those is only .008 less than the body; hardly enough to matter, I find. Any rifle that can't pick up a cartridge because of .008 needs some magazine work. I build a lot of 338 RUMs.

Agree 100%

378 stuff is from memory .620 across the belt and about .580 on the rim.

I have had lots to do with RUMs in 300 and 338 and were all good in all ways.

A mate of mine who is on AR as Blair 338RUM has been to Africa about 10 times and shot a huge amount of plains game up to Elands and Giraffes. He is a gun nut so tried lost of calibres from 257 Wby and up and found the 338 RUM and the Lapua Naturalis bullet was the go.

I think he had three different rifles and in different configurations and all based on Rem 700 actions. He shots heaps of stuff in Australia and no feeding problems. If you want to test a rifle in the field Australia is the place.

I reckon Ron has "rebatitis" Given Ron is a doctor then obviously there is no known cure for "rebatitis"

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Rebated Rim??? The rim on those is only .008 less than the body; hardly enough to matter, I find. Any rifle that can't pick up a cartridge because of .008 needs some magazine work. I build a lot of 338 RUMs.

You are speaking of radius differences between the rim and base, of actual brass?

The maximum specs for brass on the RUM head:
Base 0.550"
Rim 0.534"
diameter difference = 0.016"
radius difference = 0.008"

Actual Remington RUM brass I have measure:
Base 0.548"
Rim 0.534"
diameter difference = 0.014"
radius difference = 0.007"

Remington knows they had best make the rims to maximum spec and the base a little smaller than maximum spec.

So, hey, not as bad as you said, but still needing work to be as flawless as the 404 Jeffery.
Why have any flies in the ointment?

Actual Norma 404 Jeffery brass I have measured:
Base 0.540"
Rim 0.540""
diameter difference = 0.000"
radius difference = 0.000"

I had a .338 RUM once, got rid of it.
A .338/404 Jeffery Improved would be much better,
especially with a throat like on the .338 WIN.
But I like the .338 Lapua Magnum (NO REBATE!) too much to do that,
especially on a CZ 550 Magnum, Dakota M76 Longbow, or Savage M111.
Anything but a .338 RUM, that sawed off little runt!
I have loved a .340 Wby Magnum too, even though it is a 1985 vintage Weatherby Fibermark,
first factory sporter with a synthetic stock (McMillan) and ... NO REBATE!

Rip ...

As a bit of a side note the PH Blair used for maybe 5 of his trips was a bit of a gun nut and he had a 375. He came to Austalia and Blair took him shooting with a 22/06 and the bloke fell in love with it so Blair gave it to him.

The PH reckoned the best killer he had seen was the 30/378 with factory ammo and I think it was a Barnes bullet. Of course that does not mean it is the Barnes bullet we can buy.

Compared to Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith was an amateur.

quote:

Compared to Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith was an amateur.

As with any other topic, it is all a matter of Personal Perspective.

Whelen and Page were certainly expert's, but for some folks in the field experience/observations are more interesting than ballistics and tight groups.

Crazyhorseconsulting,

I think Ray B is just yanking your chain.
He is just working his chosen "schtick."
Sort of like my rebate-itis.
Maybe Elmer "The Great One" Keith just seems vulgar to him, like President Trump does to the Dirty-Donnie Democrats, you know, like the pot calling the kettle black?
Blame him for "collusion" when Hillary was the only Russia colluder.
Hilarious Hillary.
Collusion delusion.
There is nothing more vulgar in this world than a Democratic party member in the USA, so of course anyone trying to correct their wrongs is vulgar.

Of course Elmer Keith was the greatest.
Elmer "The Great One" Keith is how we say his name here in Kentucky, and we know the ins and outs of guns and gunwriter whores here for sure.

Rip ...

I admit, Elmer is the only one that claimed to have gone to Hell and returned to write a book about the trip - Hell, I was there, as I recall was the title.