The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Returning to the forum with some observationsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I am back after a fairly long hiatus, having been "lost" in one of the server changes. Anyway, am on the road for several days of the month and try will try to check in occaisonally. There are some observations and a suggestion or two...and I hope that you all take these with a bit of a sense of humor, if necessary, that I would like to make. I have been reading the forums lately and there are some subjects that I have read about and just feel the need to comment on, so here goes: Synthetic stocks....ugly peices of plastic that take the "soul" out of a firearm. Before you start with the durability issue think about this...there are guns from the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WWI, WWII, and Korean war that were outfitted with wood stocks that are still shootable today. I have seen many WWII guns that went from the desert climate, to the South Pacific, to Belgium..temps from 20 below to 120 above; mud, moisture, sand, dirt and who knows what else. They seemed to have held up for up to 240+ years...synthetics haven't been here long enough to see if they will hold up that long. One last thought. The SXS double is considered by some the ultimate dangerous game rifle, so why no synthetic stocked ones out there? I think Searcy tried, but as I understand not many were sold. Next is accuracy...it seems that a bolt gun needs to shoot a maximum 1 MOA to be considered worthy, where in a double, 3" at 50 yds is considered amazing by some. Does the game animal really know the difference? The same is with scopes...a double used while cape buff hunting is fine with open sights, but not a bolt rifle. Power...the 450 NE used a 480 gr. bullet at about 2100 fps. The 458 Win uses a 500 gr. bullet at about 2100 fps. The 450 NE is an excellent dangerous game rifle, the Win Mag is worthless, underpowered and unable to be counted on, even though both use a .458 diameter bullet. Sacred cows..some people, sellers and/or gunsmiths seem to be sacred cows... heaven help those who say something against them. Jack Belk was one. I had a project with him for several months, way past the stated finish date. Never did get all the parts back, fortunately I was able to replace what I needed. The second smith, who I almost sent a project to was the guy in California..can't rememmber his name, but I think he just up and quit and started building houses or something.There are so many GOOD smiths out there, Burns, Weibe, AHR that seem to do things right, and on schedule, so why protect the others. New rifle not safe to shoot. Here is my favorite. I spend more than $1K for a rifle and have to immediately spend an additional few hundred to get it bedded, cross bolts, or whatever so the stock won't "handgrenade" in my hands. That seems to be acceptable to a lot of people. To me, it is like buying a new $50K truck and having to immediately take it to the shop to have $10K work done on it before it is safe to drive. I will never buy a new gun that has to have 1/3 of its purchase price spent on making it safe to shoot. And now a suggestion, for which I am sure to get flamed for, to Montana Jeff at Montana Arms. Hire Frank M. as your sales manager/general manager. That way everyone will wait patiently, no matter how long it takes, for any product you make to be delivered, even after full payment is made. If for some reason people want a refund, there are plenty of people on this forum that will gladly take care of those refunds for your company and you won't be out a dime. I have had dealings with Frank and like him. One sale went through very quickly, the other was about 4 months until I got the book. I had forgotten about it until the package arrived. I really, and truly, hope the all is well with him, but this is a pattern of behavior when Frank is involved. Anyway, enough sermon for now and again, I really did mean this to be taken with a sense of humor, warped as it may appear. | ||
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While you were gone both the Common Sense and Experience clauses were deleted from this forum.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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You are obviously completely witless and haven't been posting of late owing only and solely to your long and justified, but unfortunately fruitless, sojourn in an unaccredited insane asylum. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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can't we all just sit in a circle, hold hands, and sing a couple verses of "Kumbaya"? I'm a wood guy, only my competition rifles don't have walnut stocks. 50 yards is a long shot with a big bore DR, not so with a bolt rifle. The 458 did not make 2100 back then. I'm with MrLexma otherwise. Glad to hear you got out. regards, Rich | |||
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Does that mean there's a vacancy at the Inn ...?? | |||
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I found an old American Rifleman magazine from the last 1950's and according to their test facilities the 458 Winchester ammo gave a little over 2150fps - so it did originally reach those ballistics. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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those were the days... Velocity test rifles with 28" barrels. Since the advent of reasonably priced chronographs speeds have come waaaay down. Rich | |||
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The .458 Win can do 2200 with a 500 grainer. That's enough for anything that walks. New powders and all that stuff. The .458 is back in favor. Last PH I hunted with had one he's been shooting for twenty years and he's still walking around, so I just disregard the.458 Win bashing. It works. | |||
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Double and bolt guns are different things, entirely. Some guys love their 63 splitwindow vettes, and in perfect condition, sell for more than a new corvette the new vette has excellent ac, great fuel mileage, (if you are under 6' tall) comfy seating, tons of creature comforts .. out turns, out stops, and flat out out-runs a 63 split window vette ... and there's NO comparision basis between the 2. Doubles and bolts are the same thing. You can not compare a moa scoped bolt gun to a 4 moa ironsighted double. and, unless you have shot and seen how fast the second shot is in a double, can you have a basis to understand that these are NOT a single well placed shot to kill an animal .. these are TWO, as nearly as instantly as a human can fire accurately, well placed shots, at under 50 yards .. want to test that? take ANY Scoped big bore bolt gun and a double of like caliber .. and a 5" target at 25 yards .. and have a club timer for 2 shots .. the double guy will be sitting down, having a beer, and relaxing with 2 holes in his target while the bolt guy is still shooting. anyone that ignores the 30 years that the 458 winmag DIDNOT make 2100 and then FOOLISHLY touts that ammo is available anywhere in the world (of what vintage) is merely requesting that fate give him a love tap on the chin. Its intentional dunderheadedness to IGNORE this fact the 458 lott ALWAYS makes at least 2250 in even a cold slow barrel .. but, like using a double, not appreciating this safety margin over MINIMUM can not be taught, it must be learned. stocks -- matter of preference, ONLY ... what about all those early war guns? what PERCENTAGE of them, under NORMAL storage conditions, are still usable? that's why those are expensive, like the 63 vette, as they are rare. I am, personally, only marginally affected by nostalgia .. i have little room for the 404 jeffery when the 416 rem/416 ruger, heck, even the 416 rigby or taylor, does the same job, BETTER, everytime. Don't give me ANY bs about "oh, it does more with recoil" .. if you can't shoot BIG bores, then keep to the mediums .. i mean that with humor, though those that proclaim the 458 winmag but berate the lott are just being SILLY .. If you can't take that difference in recoil, then admit its your shortcoming, don't bash the round, as some other people find the lott to be TRIVAL, and the 460 to be big stuff Here's what trips MY trigger.. the same kind of (semi) nostalgic attitudes that say NOW, loaded with great NEW powders, the winmag is awesome (never mind the guysthat play OAL games) .. but decry the lott or ruger as TOO NEW .. seriously, I get cracked up every time .... "you don't need the new lott or ruger when, if you HOT ROD THE HELL out of abc old round, it performs nearly as good" .... if you load it hotter than old book, you are wildcatting, and therefore are even NEWER than the lastest factory round. let me say that again .. if you hot load a classic round to greater than classic loads (real, chrono'ed from a person's rifle, not test barrel) then you are ALSO doing exactly the same as the newest whizbang rounds .. a 375hh loaded to 2650 with a 300 gr pill is NO DIFFERENT than a stock 375 ruger, other than the HH will be at slightly higher pressure! (oh boy, i am going to get hate mail over this) guys that talk pressure, but don't also take into account bolt thrust are funny ... guys that slam how other people spent their money.... and tell them how they SHOULD have spent their money, just crank me up lastly, but certainly not least, ANY FOOL who says "you don't need X rifle/caliber/bullet/powder/anything-related-to-guns" is actually giving the gungrabbers ammo .. don't believe it? "oh, you don't need that new caliber, when these 5 old ones do the same thing." .. that reads, to gun grabbers as "oh, look, even the gunguys think that there are 6 calibers that do the same thing, and they are willing to be limited, lets make it ONE, and then outlaw the whole class later" If you don't like someone's gun, then remember, you don't have to post ... the resounding lack of response speaks volumes. whew, i think i am over it.. time for coffee opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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This one I agree with, when buying a new rifle it should be ready to go. Having to spend more money on it to make it shootable it just telling me that the manufacturer could not make a decent rifle in the first place. I guess this is why I am no fan of the CZ big bores, everyone seems to need to have work done on them before they are shootable. Good Hunting,  | |||
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I'll bet the .450 didn't make 2,100 fps either unless it was equipped with 30-inch test barrels. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Marco 28" barrels .. but same thing.. though 28" on a double aint as long OVER ALL as it sounds opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Most of the ones I've shot had 25-26-inch barrels....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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David Culpepper, I have 3 CZs and they all shot great and functioned well out of the box. Didn't need to do anything other than adjust the trigger, which I do to every rifle I own. Best bang for the buck. They aren't perfect, but they don't cost $4K either. I do have rifles that cost a lot more because I just like to own different firearms. CZs are a perfect and inexpensive way to introduce yourself to DG calibers. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Begno, Thanks for letting me know your experience with the CZs. My reaction is from the stories here and from friends that send them to I believe AHR to be bedded, cross-bolted and other modifications before they will shoot them. I also know of several who have gotten a CZ in 458 and had the stocks break and crack when shooting them. It is good to know that not all the CZs have problems. Good Hunting, | |||
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My CZ 550 American Safari 458 Lott. Came ready to shoot. I didn't have to do anything to it except shoot it. | |||
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Please will someone explain bolt thrust Thanks | |||
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The tests were done with factory rifles Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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How do you explain the new Norma PH 458 Lott that is loaded with 500 gr Woodleighs @ 2150fps? After being tutored by all the real experts on this forum I now understand that I know very little about rifles and killing game and am even beginning to wonder about the advice given by others like Harry Selby, Mike LaGrange, Richard Harland and Don Heath. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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How do I explain norma's choices? I dunno, Phil, I am not a stockholder there... I can share with you a review off midway, that might explain that yes, norma isn't loading to 458 lott ...
but thanks for pointing out the exception that proves the rule.... Speaking of Don and Kevin, and their advice .. wasn't it DON that started, in africaqn hunter, telling us all of the woe's of the 458 winmag? I am certain it was, and 1900 or LESS FPS from time to time... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I don't doubt that, nor do I doubt Ross Seyfried's experience where the original Kynoch 450/400 loads also gave 1900fps. I know from all of my testing original kynoch loads in .425 WR and 505 Gibbs that every one has given 150-200fps less than advertised. Old ammo is old ammo. With modern loads the 458 Win does everything it ever claimed to do with moderate pressures. If you need more power then you are certainly free to use whatever caliber you want. I will admit that the 458 Lott is a good and popular round but it's designer stated in print that all he wanted from it was 2150fps with a 500 gr bullet. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Whereas ar.com is an accredited insane asylum where the inmates are in charge. Welcome back. DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"  | |||
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Hello Alan, great job stirring the pot.  At one time, brand new factory 458winmag ammo claimed only 2050 fps. When was that? Sometime in the 1980's? Look in some of your old catalogs. At the time Winchester introduced the 458 a full length Lott design would have been better. They were trying to keep cost down with one action length and one belted case for magnums. Nothing to do with optimum performance, it was all to save a buck. The bean counter managment ended up keeping the longer 375H&H anyways! So lets see, 60 years later, what comes from... North Carolina is it? manufacturing has changed a lot in 60 years, much easier to reprogram machines and vary designs. Lets see, what innovation is offered. Edit: Found it! 1994 Winchester Ammunition Guide 458 win mag 500 grs 2040 fps (4620 ft-lb energy). They had to admit it, 40 yrs later still not able to make it work. | |||
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Wow but the BS meter is pegging on this thread. CZ rifles are crap, the 458 Winnie isn't even as worthy as the 45/70, the 458Lott is a super power, etc, etc. Having seen both the 458 Lott and Win mag hitting the same buff with the same bullets I can tell you NO ONE could tell which holes were made by the Win mag and which by the Lott. The ONE hole made by the 500A2 however was EASILY identifiable. | |||
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This has been the best post in months | |||
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Opinions are like erections. Everyone likes their own but we don't especially want to see others. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Phil, not so. I grew up 20 miles from the ammo plant and friends dads worked there. I was in their chrono room a lot from 1964-67. I watched them test a magazine full and have the third round go "poop!". 1750 to 1800fps. Under recoil the powder would compress and clump up. That was the issue with them in Africa, at high temps the bottom round would self destruct. Pressures would go thru the roof at Olin. Rich | |||
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Fjold, I thought opinions were like assholes. Every one has one that stinks. | |||
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Yeah, they were using 748 (see their manual)which is still no good in the 458WM. See my earlier posts on another thread where 2200 fps at a COL of 3.34" is quite easy to obtain with a couple of todays powders (H335 and AA2460)and I haven't even tried AA2230 yet! But I will be doing more testing to satisfy those who want to know. For the others who's minds are already made up and don't want to be confused with the facts,  Facts: loaded to a SAAMI COL, my CZ will easily attain 2150 fps from the 500gr Hor RNSP from a variety of powders, and 2200 fps from a couple of current ball powders. When loaded to Lott specs, with the same 500gr Hornady, so far I've attained 2283 fps from one powder (H4895). I think 2300 fps is possible. It's a CZ 550 with a 25" barrel, in it's out-of-the-box format. From this experience (so far), I'd say that 100 fps max is the difference between the two firing the same bullet. Barnes manual (No.4) shows an advantage to the Lott of around 70 fps for their two banded solids (450 and 500). Hornady shows 50 fps advantage to the Lott with equal barrels. So, when I say 100 fps advantage to the Lott in my rifle, that may be stretching it a bit, as so far the advantage is 81 fps. I chose the Winchester over the Lott because in this area 458 Win Mag brass is cheaper by $15.00 per hundred, more available, and outsells the Lott by 10 to 1. To me, that's important. After all, the size of the case is like an engines displacement. But big V8's at NASCAR are soon becoming redundant, as it's now possible to get the same horsepower from a Porsche with a twin turbo 3.6L motor! A few days ago, I was looking at a couple GM crossovers on display at a mall... one was a Chevy with a 3.6L, V6... claimed hp was 281. Next to it was a 3L Caddie with a claimed hp of 260 something. Within 3 years, my 4.2L V6 has been outdated by a 3L that makes 29% more horsepower! That serves to make a point... with todays powders and components, the 458WM is more powerful, more efficient and transcends a lot of the British ordinance for DG of the early 20th century. Those are facts! There are a certain number on AR who'll keep on  But I don't have to be impressed or intimidated by them! And, will not be. The 458WM has outlived many of its critics, and if the world continues to turn on it axis, will continue to do so. Long may it live! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I must be the family member they keep hidden in the basement because my Lott is sitting in a McMillan stock  My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I dont think those who own and shoot 458win, should be offended or defensive just because some of us spent a life time hating the 458win. Its nothing against you personally. And yes, today things have changed. No denying it and I might even secretly own a 458Win, but; I wont admit it And I still 'officially' hate the 458 for what is was and Winchester for its years of stupidity.I am older than the 458 win. It did not outlive me yet. I am not so old that by time I was able to purchase a new M70 they had turned to crap. I did not want one. (until much later I got control feed 375) The 458win was during MOST of my adult life a lie and cheat. And today Winchester the company is a foreign owned brand name. Maybe they will bring back the Ted Williams line. The Lott is better, yesterday and today IMHO, and IMHO only.  | |||
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I believe the Lott has specific advantages if you desire to shoot a 500 gr monolithic projectile. Regardless of what projectile it is going to push that bullet a little faster than the Win Mag. I have both and the Lott being a CZ will hold 5 cartridges down. My Browning Safari will hold 3 Win mags down. If something can absorb allot of lead then I would stick with the CZ. The Browning fits me like a glove. I have not shot anything of significance with either. Need too! | |||
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That was quite a post. I think you'd be better off with a double bourbon than a coffee. I hope you're not including me in the Lott-bashing crowd. I merely posted what has been known for quite a while. The .458 Win is now performing very reasonably with the newer powders, and the difference between a Lott and a Win has been reduced somewhat. After reading that post twice, reading comprehension being one of my more refined skills, I found it difficult to arrive at a conclusion. Try the Maker's Mark. Good stuff. | |||
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I think you're being defensive and feeling threatened. You attack, we defend!  Some people just can't handle facts! Fact: I've a friend in New Brunswick. He retired from the Rift Valley Academy in Kenya three years ago. He (with family) spent most of his working life there. At times he came back on furlough (with family)and taught at the University of New Brunswick. He's no dummy. He also hunted big game and DG, including Cape buff and elephant every year from 1960 to 1977, when all hunting was shut down. He killed his fair share of elephant and buff. What rifle and ammo? The one you consider a failure, that should never have been if Winchester hadn't been so stupid. Well, he had great success and never reported any failures of any kind. He never handloaded and the ammo had WINCHESTER stamped on the boxes! He used his M70 (pre '64)in 300WM for the lesser stuff. Again, factory ammo! I've no doubt that some of WINCHESTER's ammo was less than it ought to have been, but the game he used it on never seemed to have noticed it! Fact: the ONLY factory ammo I've used since handloading is one box of 35 Whelen 250gr RN that was supposed to leave the muzzle at 2400 fps. Ten of that box were fired over a Chrony and corrected MV was 2247 fps! One factory round of 340WBY was put through my 340 and registered 2850 (app). My handloads were leaving at 3000 fps. Phil Shoemaker, whom I consider as knowledgeable as anyone on the 458WM (and most other Big Bores as well), and its champion, has pointed out too many times, it seems, that other African Big Bores of British and German origin, back in the day, didn't attain claimed muzzle velocity either. By the way, I have to blame Phil, at least in part, for my own predilection to the 458WM. It has almost replaced my affection for the 45-70, but not quite! Thanks Phil. When Phil speaks or writes, I listen. Had I known he was on this forum as 458 Win, I'd not have chosen 458 Only, as that originally confused a few members. My point in that "handle" was to show my own appreciation for .458 bore. Perhaps it should have been "Only .458". Yeah, the Lott is better, but not a LOT better, I have both in my rifle.  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I have a NIB M70 Safari Express 458 win. mag. that I am about to have tweaked a bit. I have been going back and forth on if I should convert this one to a Lott. I know what the lott is capable of, having owned and used one to take a few Cape Buffalo. I reload and in reviewing new loading manuals from Hornady, Barnes, checking a couple of Powder company web sites...the win. mag. is within a 100fps of the Lott. Certainly, based on the data, the win. mag. is capable of 2150-2200 fps, with 500 grain bullets, at reasonable "published" pressure. I am leaning towards just keeping the rifle as a win. mag. a little less bolt throw, and no modifications but I do like the Lott... Give me a good reason why to convert this rifle to a Lott today, not based on the past | |||
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The .458 Win. Mag. is the .38 Special of .458 caliber DG rounds. I like a .38 Special. But I prefer a .357 Mag. Same thing with the .458 - IMHO, of course, and as always. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Well now, thanks for all the replies. I would like to clear some things up but first a few comments for special posters. mrlexma: Not sure how I managed to get your panties in such a bunch, since I was only talking about things that were originally posted by others. I don't understand why you immediately resorted to name calling and trying to impune my character. So, child, why don't you go someplace private, get your panties unbunched and then go play with the other children since the rest of this post will be geared towards the adult audience. Rich: I never mentioned original 458 loadings or ballistics, but you seemed determined to quote figures from several decades ago. I was talking about current loadings and available components. My mistake, I should have made that clearer. Secondly, I read one of your posts where you brought olcrip to task for judging someone else. Let me point out that you joined mrlexma's bandwagon in judging me. Do me a favor and go get a dictionary and look up the word hypocrite..might be worth your while. As for the rest a big thanks to you all, especially RIP, had me laughing out loud with his comment. I never meant this to be a which is best, or why something sucks post, just pointing out some issues I had read about interlaced with my opinions/observations. If I were building a 458 rifle today, it would probably be a Lott, since I like lower pressure cartridges. Loading the Lott to 2100 produces less pressure than a Win Mag at that same velocity. Nothing wrong with the Win Mag, still own a couple, but again, a new build would be a Lott. As for the double vs. bolt debate, I will never argue that the double is faster..but then again, I never brought up that point. My point in that discussion was that from an accuracy stand point, and sighting system, a bolt is just as capable of taking dangerous game when equipped with open sights as is a double. Again, having a choice I would take the double for speed of second shot, not to mention pure class, but that has nothing to do with the issue I brought up. DArcy--thanks for what I considered a great compliment. Jeffeosso-- I agree with a lot of what you say, but still like the 458, and the 404 and the Rigby. Other cartridges may outdo them, but I do like the classics. Spent some time on your website...Nice work!. So anyway, didn't really mean to step on anyone's toes here, tried to point out to take this with a sense of humor, but some obviously had their minds made up before they got to that part. And lastly, Snowwolfe...please come out of the basement, bring your rifle with you...just don't post a pic of where I can see it! | |||
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And you dare to even suggest that you have a sense of humor? You are funny like a heart attack is funny. You need to spend a few mornings watching Sesame Street. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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jjs, how about lower pressure? I believe the reason a lot of us are down on the 458WM is the notion that we thought we were able to buy what many felt was the "perfect" DG rifle. 500gr bullets at a bit over 2000fps. It has had it's ups and downs, and Jack Lott spent the rest of his life motherf--king it in print. IMHO, if they had just made the case 2.6" like the 300WM it might have been that perfect everyman's rifle for DG. Rich | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Returning to the forum with some observations
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